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Cephyr13

Could the Tinkers Represent the Ancient Hebrews?

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The Tinkers in Wheel of Time seem to have a lot in common with the Ancient Hebrews (who later became the Jews as 10 of their 12 tribes were conquered and dispersed into the world).

 

Nomads

The Tinkers are nomadic, always on the move, always searching for "the Song." The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people, always in search of greener pastures for their flocks, and ultimately a home that is peaceful and plentiful. The "Song" they searched for seemed to be found when they found God (sometimes referred to as "the Light" in the Bible). I'm half way through AMoL right now, and it seems like Rand may have found "the Song," and it's interesting that it makes flowers and grass grow and causes the weather to be beautiful. It's like it renews or restores things to functionality/goodness/purity. It's a common thread in the Bible that God is the great restorer, and will restore all things in the end, even a renewed Heaven and a renewed Earth (like it was in the beginning, with no evil and no pain). Their nomadic nature was to symbolize our journey through life, and the struggles it holds, and how the end is that, eventually, the Light will bring them into their Promise Land of peace and plenty.

 

Peaceful

The Tinkers do not fight. Some, however, end up fighting, but typically, they do not fight. The Ancient Hebrews were not a warring or conquering people either. The only times they would fight would be to save family members captured by other nations or tribes. Though, we did eventually have to run the people out of their Promised Land, which actually was a good thing if the Bible is correct, because the people in that land were sacrificing their children to the Ba'al-Molec and doing some horrific things. How would you like parents who loved you enough to sacrifice you? lol Now, Jews must all go through the military just in case they're attacked. The Ancient Hebrews were not this way originally, though. Peace was their goal.

 

Traveling

The Tinkers travel through all nations in small groups, and they are hated for being tinkers, accused of being thieves, and even pushed out of countries or restricted from them at times (if I remember correctly). The Ancient Hebrews had 10 of their tribes conquered by Assyria, and those 10 tribes were then dispersed into the world in small groups. The Jews were later dispersed into the world and spread into many countries worldwide in small groups that grew over time. The Jews have been conquered and ruled many times, and have been hated throughout history, and even kicked out of nations at times, always on the Ninth of Av, a cursed date for the Jews--the date on which that their first and second temples were destroyed.

 

The Song

The Tinkers search for "the Song," some part of the Creator, it seems, or some union with Him. The Ancient Hebrews found God, and God told them that they should seek His Presence, and there they would find peace and safety. For many years, they sought His Presence, but all to often, they failed to find it and drifted from Him, and would be taken into captivity to humble them so that they would return to Him and seek Him once again. They wait for their Messiah, which could also be what "the Song" symbolizes, because they believe their Messiah will rule them and put an end to all war on earth and restore their nation to its former glory. 

 

I thought the similarities with the Ancient Hebrews and the Tinkers were very interesting and figured I'd share them to see what others thought. Robert Jordan said in an interview that he was High Episcopalian, and a Mason, so I figured he might have used the Ancient Hebrews as his template for the Tinkers.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

- Brian

Edited by Cephyr13

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Welcome to the Boards Cephyr13.  Just to say I've moved this discussion to the spoiler board due to the passing comment about Rand finding the 'song'.

 

Just to say that Rand grew the stuff through the Talent of the Voice.  This is related to the singing that he observed during his walk through the pillars in Rhuidean, for which the 'old' Aiel seemed to have an affinity for.  However I'm pretty sure that RJ has confirmed that if the current Tinkers were to witness this they wouldn't recognise what they were saw. 

 

Unfortunately I don't know enough about Hebrews to comment on whether or not they may have been a source of inspiration.

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Welcome to the Boards Cephyr13.  Just to say I've moved this discussion to the spoiler board due to the passing comment about Rand finding the 'song'.

 

Just to say that Rand grew the stuff through the Talent of the Voice.  This is related to the singing that he observed during his walk through the pillars in Rhuidean, for which the 'old' Aiel seemed to have an affinity for.  However I'm pretty sure that RJ has confirmed that if the current Tinkers were to witness this they wouldn't recognise what they were saw. 

 

Unfortunately I don't know enough about Hebrews to comment on whether or not they may have been a source of inspiration.

Correct BFG. Rand most certainly did not find the "song". In fact it has been confirmed by both authors that no such song actually exists. It is a myth twisted from the "voice" talent and "songs of growing". 

 

Also here is an interesting quote from RJ on Nakomi and the Jenn Aiel.

 

 

 

Interview: 2013
Twitter 2013 (WoT) (Verbatim)
Indigo Kae (23 January 2013)
Is the woman who told Rand at the end that he was right to bring Moridin, Nakomi?
Brandon Sanderson (23 January 2013)

I have been advised to RAFO questions regarding most everything from there on.

Brandon Sanderson

It's funny to say RAFO when there is no more to read, but what that term means is "This is supposed to be ambiguous."

David Catherine

With all of the homages to global myths/legends, is Nakomi the Wandering Jew/Jenn?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very clever question that nobody has yet asked me. I'm not going to say more, however.

 

 

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The Tinkers in Wheel of Time seem to have a lot in common with the Ancient Hebrews (who later became the Jews as 10 of their 12 tribes were conquered and dispersed into the world).

 

Nomads

The Tinkers are nomadic, always on the move, always searching for "the Song." The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people, always in search of greener pastures for their flocks, and ultimately a home that is peaceful and plentiful. The "Song" they searched for seemed to be found when they found God (sometimes referred to as "the Light" in the Bible). I'm half way through AMoL right now, and it seems like Rand may have found "the Song," and it's interesting that it makes flowers and grass grow and causes the weather to be beautiful. It's like it renews or restores things to functionality/goodness/purity. It's a common thread in the Bible that God is the great restorer, and will restore all things in the end, even a renewed Heaven and a renewed Earth (like it was in the beginning, with no evil and no pain). Their nomadic nature was to symbolize our journey through life, and the struggles it holds, and how the end is that, eventually, the Light will bring them into their Promise Land of peace and plenty.

 

Peaceful

The Tinkers do not fight. Some, however, end up fighting, but typically, they do not fight. The Ancient Hebrews were not a warring or conquering people either. The only times they would fight would be to save family members captured by other nations or tribes. Though, we did eventually have to run the people out of their Promised Land, which actually was a good thing if the Bible is correct, because the people in that land were sacrificing their children to the Ba'al-Molec and doing some horrific things. How would you like parents who loved you enough to sacrifice you? lol Now, Jews must all go through the military just in case they're attacked. The Ancient Hebrews were not this way originally, though. Peace was their goal.

 

Traveling

The Tinkers travel through all nations in small groups, and they are hated for being tinkers, accused of being thieves, and even pushed out of countries or restricted from them at times (if I remember correctly). The Ancient Hebrews had 10 of their tribes conquered by Assyria, and those 10 tribes were then dispersed into the world in small groups. The Jews were later dispersed into the world and spread into many countries worldwide in small groups that grew over time. The Jews have been conquered and ruled many times, and have been hated throughout history, and even kicked out of nations at times, always on the Ninth of Av, a cursed date for the Jews--the date on which that their first and second temples were destroyed.

 

The Song

The Tinkers search for "the Song," some part of the Creator, it seems, or some union with Him. The Ancient Hebrews found God, and God told them that they should seek His Presence, and there they would find peace and safety. For many years, they sought His Presence, but all to often, they failed to find it and drifted from Him, and would be taken into captivity to humble them so that they would return to Him and seek Him once again. They wait for their Messiah, which could also be what "the Song" symbolizes, because they believe their Messiah will rule them and put an end to all war on earth and restore their nation to its former glory. 

 

I thought the similarities with the Ancient Hebrews and the Tinkers were very interesting and figured I'd share them to see what others thought. Robert Jordan said in an interview that he was High Episcopalian, and a Mason, so I figured he might have used the Ancient Hebrews as his template for the Tinkers.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

- Brian

You have quite a number of misconceptions about the ancient hebrews and the modern day jews.

History does not quite agree when the Traveling Hebrews conquered ancient Canaan, which is modern-day Israel. The old testament puts it at roughly 4500 years ago.

1. Roughly 4800 years ago the family of Jacob moved to ancient egypt, found itself enslaved and grew into a nation of several hundred thousand to several million people. The nation of israel was freed from Egypt (the Bible recounts it as miraculous intervention by God) wandered the sinai desert for 40 years, and then proceeded to conquer canaan. Israel was nomadic for perhaps 50 years, if you include the 10-20 years it took for the land to be fully controlled by Israel.

At that point in time, there was little about Israel that was nomadic.

 

2. The Hebrews were peaceful, not pacifistic. There were several points prior to the first commonwealth where they were active conquers, in order to expand their land.

65 years after the destruction of the second temple and the end of the second commonwealth, Bar Kokhba attempted to build a new, third commonwealth, in a devastating war of independence against ancient rome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

 

3. The exile of the Ten Tribes occurred nearly 800 years prior to bar Kokhba. It's said that they are lost to history; there are other beliefs that they were reintegrated with israel prior to the destruction of the second commonwealth.

Following the exile, the jews were scattered in many cities and countries around the world, but there was always a cohesiveness despite vast distances.

The Ninth of Av is considered to be a "holiday" of mourning; not a "cursed day". It's a reminder of the religious belief that exile and misfortune are caused by ones own sins, and that sincere mourning and repentance will eventually lead to the jews returning to the ancient homeland of the hebrews. It's also a day of commemoration of the greatest tragedies that befell the nation of israel, including the destruction of the temples.

 

4. The only connection to Songs in judaism are the 10 Songs found throughout the books of the bible, prophets, and writings; which are all commemorations of tremendous spirtual revelations; or the book of psalms, which are songs composed by king david.

 

5. No connection at all. its not a bad theory, but its not consistent with historical records of the Ancient Hebrews (or modern day ones) nor is it consistent with RJ's views of the tinkers. 

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The Tinkers in Wheel of Time seem to have a lot in common with the Ancient Hebrews (who later became the Jews as 10 of their 12 tribes were conquered and dispersed into the world).

 

Nomads

The Tinkers are nomadic, always on the move, always searching for "the Song." The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people, always in search of greener pastures for their flocks, and ultimately a home that is peaceful and plentiful. The "Song" they searched for seemed to be found when they found God (sometimes referred to as "the Light" in the Bible). I'm half way through AMoL right now, and it seems like Rand may have found "the Song," and it's interesting that it makes flowers and grass grow and causes the weather to be beautiful. It's like it renews or restores things to functionality/goodness/purity. It's a common thread in the Bible that God is the great restorer, and will restore all things in the end, even a renewed Heaven and a renewed Earth (like it was in the beginning, with no evil and no pain). Their nomadic nature was to symbolize our journey through life, and the struggles it holds, and how the end is that, eventually, the Light will bring them into their Promise Land of peace and plenty.

 

Peaceful

The Tinkers do not fight. Some, however, end up fighting, but typically, they do not fight. The Ancient Hebrews were not a warring or conquering people either. The only times they would fight would be to save family members captured by other nations or tribes. Though, we did eventually have to run the people out of their Promised Land, which actually was a good thing if the Bible is correct, because the people in that land were sacrificing their children to the Ba'al-Molec and doing some horrific things. How would you like parents who loved you enough to sacrifice you? lol Now, Jews must all go through the military just in case they're attacked. The Ancient Hebrews were not this way originally, though. Peace was their goal.

 

Traveling

The Tinkers travel through all nations in small groups, and they are hated for being tinkers, accused of being thieves, and even pushed out of countries or restricted from them at times (if I remember correctly). The Ancient Hebrews had 10 of their tribes conquered by Assyria, and those 10 tribes were then dispersed into the world in small groups. The Jews were later dispersed into the world and spread into many countries worldwide in small groups that grew over time. The Jews have been conquered and ruled many times, and have been hated throughout history, and even kicked out of nations at times, always on the Ninth of Av, a cursed date for the Jews--the date on which that their first and second temples were destroyed.

 

The Song

The Tinkers search for "the Song," some part of the Creator, it seems, or some union with Him. The Ancient Hebrews found God, and God told them that they should seek His Presence, and there they would find peace and safety. For many years, they sought His Presence, but all to often, they failed to find it and drifted from Him, and would be taken into captivity to humble them so that they would return to Him and seek Him once again. They wait for their Messiah, which could also be what "the Song" symbolizes, because they believe their Messiah will rule them and put an end to all war on earth and restore their nation to its former glory.

 

I thought the similarities with the Ancient Hebrews and the Tinkers were very interesting and figured I'd share them to see what others thought. Robert Jordan said in an interview that he was High Episcopalian, and a Mason, so I figured he might have used the Ancient Hebrews as his template for the Tinkers.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

- Brian

You have quite a number of misconceptions about the ancient hebrews and the modern day jews.

History does not quite agree when the Traveling Hebrews conquered ancient Canaan, which is modern-day Israel. The old testament puts it at roughly 4500 years ago.

1. Roughly 4800 years ago the family of Jacob moved to ancient egypt, found itself enslaved and grew into a nation of several hundred thousand to several million people. The nation of israel was freed from Egypt (the Bible recounts it as miraculous intervention by God) wandered the sinai desert for 40 years, and then proceeded to conquer canaan. Israel was nomadic for perhaps 50 years, if you include the 10-20 years it took for the land to be fully controlled by Israel.

At that point in time, there was little about Israel that was nomadic.

 

2. The Hebrews were peaceful, not pacifistic. There were several points prior to the first commonwealth where they were active conquers, in order to expand their land.

65 years after the destruction of the second temple and the end of the second commonwealth, Bar Kokhba attempted to build a new, third commonwealth, in a devastating war of independence against ancient rome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

 

3. The exile of the Ten Tribes occurred nearly 800 years prior to bar Kokhba. It's said that they are lost to history; there are other beliefs that they were reintegrated with israel prior to the destruction of the second commonwealth.

Following the exile, the jews were scattered in many cities and countries around the world, but there was always a cohesiveness despite vast distances.

The Ninth of Av is considered to be a "holiday" of mourning; not a "cursed day". It's a reminder of the religious belief that exile and misfortune are caused by ones own sins, and that sincere mourning and repentance will eventually lead to the jews returning to the ancient homeland of the hebrews. It's also a day of commemoration of the greatest tragedies that befell the nation of israel, including the destruction of the temples.

 

4. The only connection to Songs in judaism are the 10 Songs found throughout the books of the bible, prophets, and writings; which are all commemorations of tremendous spirtual revelations; or the book of psalms, which are songs composed by king david.

 

5. No connection at all. its not a bad theory, but its not consistent with historical records of the Ancient Hebrews (or modern day ones) nor is it consistent with RJ's views of the tinkers.

I'm not talking about the Hebrews who lived after Abraham's time. I'm talking about the ancient Hebrews before Abraham, before God made Himself known to them. When God came to Abraham, the Hebrews were a nomadic people, and were basically how I described them. Not many people know much about the ancient Hebrew culture. But for one to understand the sayings of the Bible, the 200 different components of how they wrote, and what an impossible task it is to translate from their language to English is vital to understanding their beliefs and what they were trying to convey in their writings. They way they thought is vastly different from us, and this is reflected in their language and customs. I'm currently studying these aspects so I can get a better understanding of Bible texts. You sound like you may enjoy that type of stuff. If so, there's a great website called Tentmaker.org that discusses these topics. I don't necessarily agree with all of the beliefs presented there, but there's good info there. And www.ancient-hebrew.org/love_27.html is another really awesome website focusing on the words and sayings of ancient Hebrew. Changes the way the Bible reads.

 

Thanks for your input.

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I've only read the bible in Hebrew and I think you my be relying too heavily on questionable sources.

 

tinkers have direct modern day equivalents. they're known among other things as tinkers,

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The Tinkers in Wheel of Time seem to have a lot in common with the Ancient Hebrews (who later became the Jews as 10 of their 12 tribes were conquered and dispersed into the world).

 

Nomads

The Tinkers are nomadic, always on the move, always searching for "the Song." The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people, always in search of greener pastures for their flocks, and ultimately a home that is peaceful and plentiful. The "Song" they searched for seemed to be found when they found God (sometimes referred to as "the Light" in the Bible). I'm half way through AMoL right now, and it seems like Rand may have found "the Song," and it's interesting that it makes flowers and grass grow and causes the weather to be beautiful. It's like it renews or restores things to functionality/goodness/purity. It's a common thread in the Bible that God is the great restorer, and will restore all things in the end, even a renewed Heaven and a renewed Earth (like it was in the beginning, with no evil and no pain). Their nomadic nature was to symbolize our journey through life, and the struggles it holds, and how the end is that, eventually, the Light will bring them into their Promise Land of peace and plenty.

 

Peaceful

The Tinkers do not fight. Some, however, end up fighting, but typically, they do not fight. The Ancient Hebrews were not a warring or conquering people either. The only times they would fight would be to save family members captured by other nations or tribes. Though, we did eventually have to run the people out of their Promised Land, which actually was a good thing if the Bible is correct, because the people in that land were sacrificing their children to the Ba'al-Molec and doing some horrific things. How would you like parents who loved you enough to sacrifice you? lol Now, Jews must all go through the military just in case they're attacked. The Ancient Hebrews were not this way originally, though. Peace was their goal.

 

Traveling

The Tinkers travel through all nations in small groups, and they are hated for being tinkers, accused of being thieves, and even pushed out of countries or restricted from them at times (if I remember correctly). The Ancient Hebrews had 10 of their tribes conquered by Assyria, and those 10 tribes were then dispersed into the world in small groups. The Jews were later dispersed into the world and spread into many countries worldwide in small groups that grew over time. The Jews have been conquered and ruled many times, and have been hated throughout history, and even kicked out of nations at times, always on the Ninth of Av, a cursed date for the Jews--the date on which that their first and second temples were destroyed.

 

The Song

The Tinkers search for "the Song," some part of the Creator, it seems, or some union with Him. The Ancient Hebrews found God, and God told them that they should seek His Presence, and there they would find peace and safety. For many years, they sought His Presence, but all to often, they failed to find it and drifted from Him, and would be taken into captivity to humble them so that they would return to Him and seek Him once again. They wait for their Messiah, which could also be what "the Song" symbolizes, because they believe their Messiah will rule them and put an end to all war on earth and restore their nation to its former glory.

 

I thought the similarities with the Ancient Hebrews and the Tinkers were very interesting and figured I'd share them to see what others thought. Robert Jordan said in an interview that he was High Episcopalian, and a Mason, so I figured he might have used the Ancient Hebrews as his template for the Tinkers.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

- Brian

You have quite a number of misconceptions about the ancient hebrews and the modern day jews.

History does not quite agree when the Traveling Hebrews conquered ancient Canaan, which is modern-day Israel. The old testament puts it at roughly 4500 years ago.

1. Roughly 4800 years ago the family of Jacob moved to ancient egypt, found itself enslaved and grew into a nation of several hundred thousand to several million people. The nation of israel was freed from Egypt (the Bible recounts it as miraculous intervention by God) wandered the sinai desert for 40 years, and then proceeded to conquer canaan. Israel was nomadic for perhaps 50 years, if you include the 10-20 years it took for the land to be fully controlled by Israel.

At that point in time, there was little about Israel that was nomadic.

 

2. The Hebrews were peaceful, not pacifistic. There were several points prior to the first commonwealth where they were active conquers, in order to expand their land.

65 years after the destruction of the second temple and the end of the second commonwealth, Bar Kokhba attempted to build a new, third commonwealth, in a devastating war of independence against ancient rome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

 

3. The exile of the Ten Tribes occurred nearly 800 years prior to bar Kokhba. It's said that they are lost to history; there are other beliefs that they were reintegrated with israel prior to the destruction of the second commonwealth.

Following the exile, the jews were scattered in many cities and countries around the world, but there was always a cohesiveness despite vast distances.

The Ninth of Av is considered to be a "holiday" of mourning; not a "cursed day". It's a reminder of the religious belief that exile and misfortune are caused by ones own sins, and that sincere mourning and repentance will eventually lead to the jews returning to the ancient homeland of the hebrews. It's also a day of commemoration of the greatest tragedies that befell the nation of israel, including the destruction of the temples.

 

4. The only connection to Songs in judaism are the 10 Songs found throughout the books of the bible, prophets, and writings; which are all commemorations of tremendous spirtual revelations; or the book of psalms, which are songs composed by king david.

 

5. No connection at all. its not a bad theory, but its not consistent with historical records of the Ancient Hebrews (or modern day ones) nor is it consistent with RJ's views of the tinkers.

I'm not talking about the Hebrews who lived after Abraham's time. I'm talking about the ancient Hebrews before Abraham, before God made Himself known to them. When God came to Abraham, the Hebrews were a nomadic people, and were basically how I described them. Not many people know much about the ancient Hebrew culture. But for one to understand the sayings of the Bible, the 200 different components of how they wrote, and what an impossible task it is to translate from their language to English is vital to understanding their beliefs and what they were trying to convey in their writings. They way they thought is vastly different from us, and this is reflected in their language and customs. I'm currently studying these aspects so I can get a better understanding of Bible texts. You sound like you may enjoy that type of stuff. If so, there's a great website called Tentmaker.org that discusses these topics. I don't necessarily agree with all of the beliefs presented there, but there's good info there. And www.ancient-hebrew.org/love_27.html is another really awesome website focusing on the words and sayings of ancient Hebrew. Changes the way the Bible reads.

 

Thanks for your input.

Abraham was the first hebrew. He was born approximately 500 years before the exodus. in biblical hebrew, he was known as an Ivri, which comes from Aver עבר. His descendents were called Hebrews on the basis of that being the language they spoke. 

The conquering of canaan was done by his descendents, some 550 years later. The family of Abraham, his father Terakh, and his father Haran were not considered to be hebrews.

The biblical story of God speaking to Abraham started with him being commanded to 'wander' to a distant land (Canaan) and leave his fathers family behind.

If you want to see what the scriptures say firsthand, look in Genesis. 

 

I glanced through those sites you mentioned. neither are particularly scholarly, in the scientific method sense, but the ancient-hebrew site is interesting.

If it interests you, Robert Jordan based the Old Tongue on the concept of the ancient hebrew language (of which modern israeli hebrew is a derivative, btw). In his theory, which can be analyzed using intertextual means, it's not so much that there is no accurate translation of the OT, but the language was very fluid, the same word can mean two or three different things (or more) depending on the context its used, even the pronunciation can significantly affect the meaning. 

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The Tinkers in Wheel of Time seem to have a lot in common with the Ancient Hebrews (who later became the Jews as 10 of their 12 tribes were conquered and dispersed into the world).

 

Nomads

The Tinkers are nomadic, always on the move, always searching for "the Song." The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people, always in search of greener pastures for their flocks, and ultimately a home that is peaceful and plentiful. The "Song" they searched for seemed to be found when they found God (sometimes referred to as "the Light" in the Bible). I'm half way through AMoL right now, and it seems like Rand may have found "the Song," and it's interesting that it makes flowers and grass grow and causes the weather to be beautiful. It's like it renews or restores things to functionality/goodness/purity. It's a common thread in the Bible that God is the great restorer, and will restore all things in the end, even a renewed Heaven and a renewed Earth (like it was in the beginning, with no evil and no pain). Their nomadic nature was to symbolize our journey through life, and the struggles it holds, and how the end is that, eventually, the Light will bring them into their Promise Land of peace and plenty.

 

Peaceful

The Tinkers do not fight. Some, however, end up fighting, but typically, they do not fight. The Ancient Hebrews were not a warring or conquering people either. The only times they would fight would be to save family members captured by other nations or tribes. Though, we did eventually have to run the people out of their Promised Land, which actually was a good thing if the Bible is correct, because the people in that land were sacrificing their children to the Ba'al-Molec and doing some horrific things. How would you like parents who loved you enough to sacrifice you? lol Now, Jews must all go through the military just in case they're attacked. The Ancient Hebrews were not this way originally, though. Peace was their goal.

 

Traveling

The Tinkers travel through all nations in small groups, and they are hated for being tinkers, accused of being thieves, and even pushed out of countries or restricted from them at times (if I remember correctly). The Ancient Hebrews had 10 of their tribes conquered by Assyria, and those 10 tribes were then dispersed into the world in small groups. The Jews were later dispersed into the world and spread into many countries worldwide in small groups that grew over time. The Jews have been conquered and ruled many times, and have been hated throughout history, and even kicked out of nations at times, always on the Ninth of Av, a cursed date for the Jews--the date on which that their first and second temples were destroyed.

 

The Song

The Tinkers search for "the Song," some part of the Creator, it seems, or some union with Him. The Ancient Hebrews found God, and God told them that they should seek His Presence, and there they would find peace and safety. For many years, they sought His Presence, but all to often, they failed to find it and drifted from Him, and would be taken into captivity to humble them so that they would return to Him and seek Him once again. They wait for their Messiah, which could also be what "the Song" symbolizes, because they believe their Messiah will rule them and put an end to all war on earth and restore their nation to its former glory.

 

I thought the similarities with the Ancient Hebrews and the Tinkers were very interesting and figured I'd share them to see what others thought. Robert Jordan said in an interview that he was High Episcopalian, and a Mason, so I figured he might have used the Ancient Hebrews as his template for the Tinkers.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

- Brian

You have quite a number of misconceptions about the ancient hebrews and the modern day jews.

History does not quite agree when the Traveling Hebrews conquered ancient Canaan, which is modern-day Israel. The old testament puts it at roughly 4500 years ago.

1. Roughly 4800 years ago the family of Jacob moved to ancient egypt, found itself enslaved and grew into a nation of several hundred thousand to several million people. The nation of israel was freed from Egypt (the Bible recounts it as miraculous intervention by God) wandered the sinai desert for 40 years, and then proceeded to conquer canaan. Israel was nomadic for perhaps 50 years, if you include the 10-20 years it took for the land to be fully controlled by Israel.

At that point in time, there was little about Israel that was nomadic.

 

2. The Hebrews were peaceful, not pacifistic. There were several points prior to the first commonwealth where they were active conquers, in order to expand their land.

65 years after the destruction of the second temple and the end of the second commonwealth, Bar Kokhba attempted to build a new, third commonwealth, in a devastating war of independence against ancient rome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

 

3. The exile of the Ten Tribes occurred nearly 800 years prior to bar Kokhba. It's said that they are lost to history; there are other beliefs that they were reintegrated with israel prior to the destruction of the second commonwealth.

Following the exile, the jews were scattered in many cities and countries around the world, but there was always a cohesiveness despite vast distances.

The Ninth of Av is considered to be a "holiday" of mourning; not a "cursed day". It's a reminder of the religious belief that exile and misfortune are caused by ones own sins, and that sincere mourning and repentance will eventually lead to the jews returning to the ancient homeland of the hebrews. It's also a day of commemoration of the greatest tragedies that befell the nation of israel, including the destruction of the temples.

 

4. The only connection to Songs in judaism are the 10 Songs found throughout the books of the bible, prophets, and writings; which are all commemorations of tremendous spirtual revelations; or the book of psalms, which are songs composed by king david.

 

5. No connection at all. its not a bad theory, but its not consistent with historical records of the Ancient Hebrews (or modern day ones) nor is it consistent with RJ's views of the tinkers.

I'm not talking about the Hebrews who lived after Abraham's time. I'm talking about the ancient Hebrews before Abraham, before God made Himself known to them. When God came to Abraham, the Hebrews were a nomadic people, and were basically how I described them. Not many people know much about the ancient Hebrew culture. But for one to understand the sayings of the Bible, the 200 different components of how they wrote, and what an impossible task it is to translate from their language to English is vital to understanding their beliefs and what they were trying to convey in their writings. They way they thought is vastly different from us, and this is reflected in their language and customs. I'm currently studying these aspects so I can get a better understanding of Bible texts. You sound like you may enjoy that type of stuff. If so, there's a great website called Tentmaker.org that discusses these topics. I don't necessarily agree with all of the beliefs presented there, but there's good info there. And www.ancient-hebrew.org/love_27.html is another really awesome website focusing on the words and sayings of ancient Hebrew. Changes the way the Bible reads.

 

Thanks for your input.

Abraham was the first hebrew. He was born approximately 500 years before the exodus. in biblical hebrew, he was known as an Ivri, which comes from Aver עבר. His descendents were called Hebrews on the basis of that being the language they spoke. 

The conquering of canaan was done by his descendents, some 550 years later. The family of Abraham, his father Terakh, and his father Haran were not considered to be hebrews.

The biblical story of God speaking to Abraham started with him being commanded to 'wander' to a distant land (Canaan) and leave his fathers family behind.

If you want to see what the scriptures say firsthand, look in Genesis. 

 

I glanced through those sites you mentioned. neither are particularly scholarly, in the scientific method sense, but the ancient-hebrew site is interesting.

If it interests you, Robert Jordan based the Old Tongue on the concept of the ancient hebrew language (of which modern israeli hebrew is a derivative, btw). In his theory, which can be analyzed using intertextual means, it's not so much that there is no accurate translation of the OT, but the language was very fluid, the same word can mean two or three different things (or more) depending on the context its used, even the pronunciation can significantly affect the meaning. 

 

Actually, descendents of Abraham are not the only Hebrews.  all descendants of Eber (sometimes spelled Heber, but most commonly Eber) (Genesis 10:25) are referred to as Hebrews, of which Abraham was one.

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This is getting off topic; but yes, one of several reasons for the moniker "Ivri" comes from Eber - Abraham was descended from Eber. I"ll agree that there were plenty of other families descended from Eber, but I will still insist that only Abraham and his descendants were called 'Hebrews'; I will do some more research  :smile:

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I think you may be getting drawn into a missionary/apologist kind of discussion.

 

that's fine but just be aware of that aspect if you go there.

Edited by cindy

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The Tinkers in Wheel of Time seem to have a lot in common with the Ancient Hebrews (who later became the Jews as 10 of their 12 tribes were conquered and dispersed into the world).

 

Nomads

The Tinkers are nomadic, always on the move, always searching for "the Song." The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people, always in search of greener pastures for their flocks, and ultimately a home that is peaceful and plentiful. The "Song" they searched for seemed to be found when they found God (sometimes referred to as "the Light" in the Bible). I'm half way through AMoL right now, and it seems like Rand may have found "the Song," and it's interesting that it makes flowers and grass grow and causes the weather to be beautiful. It's like it renews or restores things to functionality/goodness/purity. It's a common thread in the Bible that God is the great restorer, and will restore all things in the end, even a renewed Heaven and a renewed Earth (like it was in the beginning, with no evil and no pain). Their nomadic nature was to symbolize our journey through life, and the struggles it holds, and how the end is that, eventually, the Light will bring them into their Promise Land of peace and plenty.

 

Peaceful

The Tinkers do not fight. Some, however, end up fighting, but typically, they do not fight. The Ancient Hebrews were not a warring or conquering people either. The only times they would fight would be to save family members captured by other nations or tribes. Though, we did eventually have to run the people out of their Promised Land, which actually was a good thing if the Bible is correct, because the people in that land were sacrificing their children to the Ba'al-Molec and doing some horrific things. How would you like parents who loved you enough to sacrifice you? lol Now, Jews must all go through the military just in case they're attacked. The Ancient Hebrews were not this way originally, though. Peace was their goal.

 

Traveling

The Tinkers travel through all nations in small groups, and they are hated for being tinkers, accused of being thieves, and even pushed out of countries or restricted from them at times (if I remember correctly). The Ancient Hebrews had 10 of their tribes conquered by Assyria, and those 10 tribes were then dispersed into the world in small groups. The Jews were later dispersed into the world and spread into many countries worldwide in small groups that grew over time. The Jews have been conquered and ruled many times, and have been hated throughout history, and even kicked out of nations at times, always on the Ninth of Av, a cursed date for the Jews--the date on which that their first and second temples were destroyed.

 

The Song

The Tinkers search for "the Song," some part of the Creator, it seems, or some union with Him. The Ancient Hebrews found God, and God told them that they should seek His Presence, and there they would find peace and safety. For many years, they sought His Presence, but all to often, they failed to find it and drifted from Him, and would be taken into captivity to humble them so that they would return to Him and seek Him once again. They wait for their Messiah, which could also be what "the Song" symbolizes, because they believe their Messiah will rule them and put an end to all war on earth and restore their nation to its former glory.

 

I thought the similarities with the Ancient Hebrews and the Tinkers were very interesting and figured I'd share them to see what others thought. Robert Jordan said in an interview that he was High Episcopalian, and a Mason, so I figured he might have used the Ancient Hebrews as his template for the Tinkers.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

- Brian

You have quite a number of misconceptions about the ancient hebrews and the modern day jews.

History does not quite agree when the Traveling Hebrews conquered ancient Canaan, which is modern-day Israel. The old testament puts it at roughly 4500 years ago.

1. Roughly 4800 years ago the family of Jacob moved to ancient egypt, found itself enslaved and grew into a nation of several hundred thousand to several million people. The nation of israel was freed from Egypt (the Bible recounts it as miraculous intervention by God) wandered the sinai desert for 40 years, and then proceeded to conquer canaan. Israel was nomadic for perhaps 50 years, if you include the 10-20 years it took for the land to be fully controlled by Israel.

At that point in time, there was little about Israel that was nomadic.

 

2. The Hebrews were peaceful, not pacifistic. There were several points prior to the first commonwealth where they were active conquers, in order to expand their land.

65 years after the destruction of the second temple and the end of the second commonwealth, Bar Kokhba attempted to build a new, third commonwealth, in a devastating war of independence against ancient rome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

 

3. The exile of the Ten Tribes occurred nearly 800 years prior to bar Kokhba. It's said that they are lost to history; there are other beliefs that they were reintegrated with israel prior to the destruction of the second commonwealth.

Following the exile, the jews were scattered in many cities and countries around the world, but there was always a cohesiveness despite vast distances.

The Ninth of Av is considered to be a "holiday" of mourning; not a "cursed day". It's a reminder of the religious belief that exile and misfortune are caused by ones own sins, and that sincere mourning and repentance will eventually lead to the jews returning to the ancient homeland of the hebrews. It's also a day of commemoration of the greatest tragedies that befell the nation of israel, including the destruction of the temples.

 

4. The only connection to Songs in judaism are the 10 Songs found throughout the books of the bible, prophets, and writings; which are all commemorations of tremendous spirtual revelations; or the book of psalms, which are songs composed by king david.

 

5. No connection at all. its not a bad theory, but its not consistent with historical records of the Ancient Hebrews (or modern day ones) nor is it consistent with RJ's views of the tinkers.

I'm not talking about the Hebrews who lived after Abraham's time. I'm talking about the ancient Hebrews before Abraham, before God made Himself known to them. When God came to Abraham, the Hebrews were a nomadic people, and were basically how I described them. Not many people know much about the ancient Hebrew culture. But for one to understand the sayings of the Bible, the 200 different components of how they wrote, and what an impossible task it is to translate from their language to English is vital to understanding their beliefs and what they were trying to convey in their writings. They way they thought is vastly different from us, and this is reflected in their language and customs. I'm currently studying these aspects so I can get a better understanding of Bible texts. You sound like you may enjoy that type of stuff. If so, there's a great website called Tentmaker.org that discusses these topics. I don't necessarily agree with all of the beliefs presented there, but there's good info there. And www.ancient-hebrew.org/love_27.html is another really awesome website focusing on the words and sayings of ancient Hebrew. Changes the way the Bible reads.

 

Thanks for your input.

Abraham was the first hebrew. He was born approximately 500 years before the exodus. in biblical hebrew, he was known as an Ivri, which comes from Aver עבר. His descendents were called Hebrews on the basis of that being the language they spoke.

The conquering of canaan was done by his descendents, some 550 years later. The family of Abraham, his father Terakh, and his father Haran were not considered to be hebrews.

The biblical story of God speaking to Abraham started with him being commanded to 'wander' to a distant land (Canaan) and leave his fathers family behind.

If you want to see what the scriptures say firsthand, look in Genesis.

 

I glanced through those sites you mentioned. neither are particularly scholarly, in the scientific method sense, but the ancient-hebrew site is interesting.

If it interests you, Robert Jordan based the Old Tongue on the concept of the ancient hebrew language (of which modern israeli hebrew is a derivative, btw). In his theory, which can be analyzed using intertextual means, it's not so much that there is no accurate translation of the OT, but the language was very fluid, the same word can mean two or three different things (or more) depending on the context its used, even the pronunciation can significantly affect the meaning.

I know the Bible backward and forward. Abraham wasn't the first Hebrew. He's the first Hebrew to have a covenent with God. The Hebrews were around for quite some time before Abraham.

 

The Tentmaker website isn't meant to be scholarly itself. It quotes a lot of scholars and discusses a lot of their research. The Ancient Hebrew site is not laid out to be scholarly, but the guy who does their word meanings is a scholar. He specializes in Ancient Hebrew customs, culture, coloquialisms, and writing styles. I have his first volume of word meanings. It's very intriging.

 

Thanks for the information on the Old Tongue. I figured Robert Jordan used some ancient Hebrew stuff in his languages and other aspects, but I didn't know the specifics. Masons like to hide interesting things for people to find.

Edited by Cephyr13

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I've only read the bible in Hebrew and I think you my be relying too heavily on questionable sources.

 

tinkers have direct modern day equivalents. they're known among other things as tinkers,

Modern Hebrew is different than Ancient Hebrew, especially the Ancient Hebrew picture language. Even Jews have a tough time understanding the Ancient Hebrew word meanings. It takes a lot of study into the Ancient Culture to understand what they were saying. I gave a website if you wish to check my sources. They're not questionable. Just because I don't know about something doesn't make it qurstionable. It just means it's unknown to me and different than what I currently understand. The website I mentioned in an earlier post is written by a scholar but put into simple terms for the layman. Most people don't get into the scholarly works, so there's a whole wolrd of information out there apart from just the info we get from the Bible. Scholars have great research and insight on the Bible that paints a different picture than we're used to hearing.

 

As someone said, though, we're a little off topic...I think.

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This is getting off topic; but yes, one of several reasons for the moniker "Ivri" comes from Eber - Abraham was descended from Eber. I"ll agree that there were plenty of other families descended from Eber, but I will still insist that only Abraham and his descendants were called 'Hebrews'; I will do some more research :smile:

Spoke just proved it for you. Eber (Heber) was the first Hebrew (Heberew) A tribe was named with the name of the father of that tribe. Eber/Heber is where Hebrew came from. It's like Israel. Jacob was renamed Israel by God, and so Jacob's people were named Israel. Jacob was the first Israel and we know that by his name being Israel. He was a Hebrew from the line of Heber, as was Abraham. Make sense?

Edited by Cephyr13

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It is getting a little off topic, but it is also a big part of the topic. 

 

So I won't say stop discussing it, but keep in mind that the relation to the WoT is supposed to be the main focus. 

 

Obviously, clashes of opinion on the sources etc... are important, but lets try to keep the WoT in it. 

 

Additionally, if anyone wants to discuss the Hebrew etc... topic in itself, feel free to create a topic on the General Discussion board. 

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This is getting off topic; but yes, one of several reasons for the moniker "Ivri" comes from Eber - Abraham was descended from Eber. I"ll agree that there were plenty of other families descended from Eber, but I will still insist that only Abraham and his descendants were called 'Hebrews'; I will do some more research :smile:

Spoke just proved it for you. Eber (Heber) was the first Hebrew (Heberew) A tribe was named with the name of the father of that tribe. Eber/Heber is where Hebrew came from. It's like Israel. Jacob was renamed Israel by God, and so Jacob's people were named Israel. Jacob was the first Israel and we know that by his name being Israel. He was a Hebrew from the line of Heber, as was Abraham. Make sense?

 

I've already exited this conversation. You do raise some interesting points, but as i disagree with your approach, i think there is little more for me to gain.

There are plenty of scholarly works out there, mostly jewish, on these topics. if i can find a link ill send it by PM if you'd like.

 

* Modern hebrew is a derivative of ancient hebrew, as spoken by the nation of israel from the exodus to the end of the second commonwealth. It's not the same, but the grammar, structure and majority of words come from biblical hebrew, as the language was continuously spoken by a small minority and read by a majority of world jews, even until the modern age.

* The alphabet is related to the phonecian alphabet, which you can see is somewhat similar to modern hebrew cursive. The time period you would be looking for is Ezra the Scribe, who (i believe) introduced whats commonly recognized as the formal hebrew alphabet, which is recognizably the same as the modern hebrew alphabet. 

Robert Jordan himself wanted the Old Tongue to be similar to a modern english reader trying to read latin, or perhaps later greek (derived from phonecian); the letters are similar, in some cases even the same, the language is almost recognizable, and a well educated lay person might even be able to translate some easier parts. It's clearly a derivative (he notes that the reason there are so many accents is because there was plenty of travel and the printing press was re-invented "shortly" after the breaking; very few places lost contact with civilization at large so while unique language patterns emerged, there was no isolation long enough for a distinct language to form.

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This is getting off topic; but yes, one of several reasons for the moniker "Ivri" comes from Eber - Abraham was descended from Eber. I"ll agree that there were plenty of other families descended from Eber, but I will still insist that only Abraham and his descendants were called 'Hebrews'; I will do some more research :smile:

Spoke just proved it for you. Eber (Heber) was the first Hebrew (Heberew) A tribe was named with the name of the father of that tribe. Eber/Heber is where Hebrew came from. It's like Israel. Jacob was renamed Israel by God, and so Jacob's people were named Israel. Jacob was the first Israel and we know that by his name being Israel. He was a Hebrew from the line of Heber, as was Abraham. Make sense?

 

I've already exited this conversation. You do raise some interesting points, but as i disagree with your approach, i think there is little more for me to gain.

There are plenty of scholarly works out there, mostly jewish, on these topics. if i can find a link ill send it by PM if you'd like.

 

* Modern hebrew is a derivative of ancient hebrew, as spoken by the nation of israel from the exodus to the end of the second commonwealth. It's not the same, but the grammar, structure and majority of words come from biblical hebrew, as the language was continuously spoken by a small minority and read by a majority of world jews, even until the modern age.

* The alphabet is related to the phonecian alphabet, which you can see is somewhat similar to modern hebrew cursive. The time period you would be looking for is Ezra the Scribe, who (i believe) introduced whats commonly recognized as the formal hebrew alphabet, which is recognizably the same as the modern hebrew alphabet. 

Robert Jordan himself wanted the Old Tongue to be similar to a modern english reader trying to read latin, or perhaps later greek (derived from phonecian); the letters are similar, in some cases even the same, the language is almost recognizable, and a well educated lay person might even be able to translate some easier parts. It's clearly a derivative (he notes that the reason there are so many accents is because there was plenty of travel and the printing press was re-invented "shortly" after the breaking; very few places lost contact with civilization at large so while unique language patterns emerged, there was no isolation long enough for a distinct language to form.

 

 

Thanks for the information and conversation. Everyone has their different views, and I'm not saying I'm right or anything. I'm just throwing out some ideas/theories/possibilities and seeing if anyone has information that might support or disprove my theory. I didn't know much about Robert Jordan's language construction. I just knew he used some different languages and cultures to create his languages and cultures. That's interesting that the Old Tongue is based in Hebrew to some degree. Thanks.

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The Tinkers remind me of the Romanichial (Gypsies). The bright colored clothing, the traveling around, the love of music. Also a Romanichial that doesn't follow the Romanichial way is called a Tinker.

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@nicana,

+1,and its romanichal by the way.

 

Your right, bad phone.  :tongue: 

 

Also Romanichal should be capitalized if we want to be technical.

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@cindy,

take romani people(romanichal) add jainism religion,a little bit of irish travellers(sometimes tinkers)

give them a wheel of time past and present,a fool's errand for a future,and you've got randland's tinkers.

typically robert jordan really.

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