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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Colin Sullivan

Error with Lan?

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The only issue we see with traveling is related to the size of the gateway, but that is only due to strength not the way it is weaved (ignoring avi because it is never confirmed). Once you see a weave you are able to remember and weave it perfectly. No one is unable able to weave it because they are not dexterous enough or they didn't catch it the first time or it was complicated and they missed the 10th loopty loop of fire through the ring of water

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That quite simply isn't true. For instance Egwene learns early what it takes to make a ball of light. That doesn't mean she can control it as she does when captured by the WT and she does her display while under forkroot. We see it again with Nyn who knows weaves outside of healing but is "dismal" with them.

 

Again please quote the examples with traveling you are referring to. Further you can't just ignore the Avi example.

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In a lot of cases, we don't see the people learning the weave - they've been taught it off screen, and how easy or hard it was wasn't known. The ones most likely to be seen learning weaves are the super girls, who are all very adept at learning them. Many of the others seen learning things are fast learners as well - Elaida learns Skimming quickly, but it was already established that she rose to become AS in a relatively short time as well. So, specific examples would really help the case here.

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My problem is we never really see finesse in the wheel of time (healing as the exception). Either you do it as well as someone else or you just lack a talent in that area.

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That quite simply isn't true. For instance Egwene learns early what it takes to make a ball of light. That doesn't mean she can control it as she does when captured by the WT and she does her display while under forkroot. We see it again with Nyn who knows weaves outside of healing but is "dismal" with them.

 

Again please quote the examples with traveling you are referring to. Further you can't just ignore the Avi example.

 

I've always wondered what exactly RJ was going for when he described characters, as knowing weaves but being 'dismal' at them (as opposed to not strong enough to execute them properly).  Taking Nynaeve as an example as she is most commonly described as 'dismal/similar adjectives' to due to her interest in Healing and not much else - we see her weaving numerous weaves, e.g. balefire, fire balls, lightning, shields, etc., that do not seem any worse than other channelers versions of them.  I know Cadsuane is certainly one character to describe her as dismal at everything other than Healing, yet we never see Nynaeve failing to do anything, or her weaves being ineffective, or any character actually commenting on a specific weave and saying its sloppy or whatever.  In fact, we see her adapting useless weaves to become useful during her AS test.

 

Additionally, I have always been slightly non-plussed by how many characters seem to be completely inept at Healing, e.g. Elayne, Egwene, Sheriam, Myrelle, etc.  These are all strong channelers, and Elayne and Egwene have demonstrated the ability to execute very complicated weaves.  Is it just that they can't be bothered to learn the weaves, or that Healing is particularly challenging/requires particular dexterity?  If the latter is the case, I am further confused by the comments r.e. Nynaeve's uselessness with regards to other weaves (I think there is a similar comment about Sumeko too) - if they have the ability to weave very complicated weaves why can't they weave a ball of light in a way which other channelers don't consider dismal?

Edited by Rhienne

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We see her being sloppy however. Take the instance of her duel with the WF as one example. Once the younger WF gets the hang of it she schools Nyn due to a lack of dexterity and ability with the weaves. She doesn't have a deft enough touch to duel in that manner.

Edited by Suttree

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Cads comment equates to her being dismal in all else. Unless you think the most skilled AS in hundreds of years aside from the Wonder Girls doesn't know how to judge such things.

 

The duel was merely one example of weaves she has learned but hasn't mastered which further backs our point. We have now given a couple specific examples. When you have time present the travelling ones you mentioned and we can discuss them.

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I believe a Talent means that one has a very strong, almost unusual aptitude towards particular skills, while being limited by normal strength in everything else.

Moiraine is not particularly strong, but she does have a Minor Talent (i.e. above norm) for Healing, while Nynaeve has a Major Talent for Healing. Sumeko has a Super Talent, as does Sashelle, for Healing. Sashelle's healing can be described as more finesse, while Nynaeve's is strength/efficacy of the weaves, and Sumeko is much the same, just more adept.

Androl doesn't have the strength to be a good Traveler, but he has a skill that can shape the weaves with such finesse despite the lack of brute strength, that for him its a Talent. However he has no ability, or perhaps cohesion, to properly form the destructive weaves for destroying rocks or the like.

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It's suggested throughout that Traveling is related to brute strength; i.e. it requires a lot of Power to hold a weave open long enough to walk through; Asmodean himself says that only LTT and Demandred (or maybe it was Sammael) could block an open Gateway; it's hinted subtly that Rand/LTT has a Talent for Traveling - he can block gateways, he stumbles on to Skimming (although it takes him some time to realize what he's done and how to repeat it) fairly early, and he figures out both how to make the weave for Traveling and what it means on a OP/Physics level. ("I take the Pattern here and here, and bore a hole, a tunnel, to connect them"). True some of it can be attributed to memory seepage, but i think its too early for that for the most part.

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Cads comment equates to her being dismal in all else. Unless you think the most skilled AS in hundreds of years aside from the Wonder Girls doesn't know how to judge such things.

 

The duel was merely one example of weaves she has learned but hasn't mastered which further backs our point. We have now given a couple specific examples. When you have time present the travelling ones you mentioned and we can discuss them.

 

The duel is the only example I can recall from the entire series where Nynaeve is not effective with her weaves.  We see her dueling Moghedian in Tanchico in tSR and she matches her, i.e. has no problem dodging/slicing her opponents weaves, and going on the attack at the same time.  We also see her fighting off two linked Black Sisters in Ebou Dar (with two of the Kin's help - probably relatively limited as they are a) reluctant to fight, and b) have no knowledge of fighting use saidar).  Apart from her duel with Talan, I really can't think of any scenes where Nynaeve's weaving is 'dismal', or even commented on by other sisters.  I suppose its possible that her superior strength (compared to most other female channellers) means that it doesn't matter if her weaving is dismal - the end result is still sufficient to get the job done.

Edited by Rhienne

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Cads comment equates to her being dismal in all else. Unless you think the most skilled AS in hundreds of years aside from the Wonder Girls doesn't know how to judge such things.

 

The duel was merely one example of weaves she has learned but hasn't mastered which further backs our point. We have now given a couple specific examples. When you have time present the travelling ones you mentioned and we can discuss them.

 

The duel is the only example I can recall from the entire series where Nynaeve is not effective with her weaves.  We see her dueling Moghedian in Tanchico in tSR and she matches her, i.e. has no problem dodging/slicing her opponents weaves, and going on the attack at the same time.  

 You need to re-read the Mogi section. It was essentially an arm wrestling match of OP strength. Mogi underestimated a "savage" from the current age and as such just matched strength for strength. She would have won easily had she taken a different route and been more subtle/inventive with her weaves.

 

Again unless you are trying to make the argument that Cadsuane can not properly judge skill in the OP it is pretty cut and dry. On top of that we have given other examples of individuals knowing a weave but not yet mastering it. It's how it works.

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Cads comment equates to her being dismal in all else. Unless you think the most skilled AS in hundreds of years aside from the Wonder Girls doesn't know how to judge such things.

 

The duel was merely one example of weaves she has learned but hasn't mastered which further backs our point. We have now given a couple specific examples. When you have time present the travelling ones you mentioned and we can discuss them.

that is why I only said the duel proves nothing and not that people were wrong about her.

 

Besides, your examples don't conclusively prove anything

 

Edit: didn't see bbm's post, on a second page

Edited by shortkut

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Yes clearly Egwene was as good with light balls when she learned the weave as she was when captured books later by AS.

 

The examples are clear, we have a quote supporting us while you refuse to back up your opinion. Start a new thread and post quotes as we have requested if you wish to carry on the discussion.

 

Edit: Same excuse short used.

Edited by Suttree

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The problem here is I don't see anyone of these guys as leaps and bounds better than the others. Its a bell curve of talent, the very best (Lan) is still only somewhat better than the second best, and so on (consider Lan had a pretty intense duel with Toram Riatin, a blademaster, but surely nowhere up this list). Circumstances (and physical condition) could very quickly erase the gaps in skill between individuals of this level.

It's a matter of the various character's personalities.

 

Gawyn - Always 2nd best. From birth he's told that his sister is the one to rule and he must die to support her. At the WT, Galad was always better with him at the sword, not to mention that Galad was way more handsome. After Siun's fall, he was never sure if he was on the right side once he relized Elaidia was trying to have him killed. When he got together with Egwene, he was always in her shadow. And he even mentions himself that he was a prince, but it was Rand who was out there waging war and bringing countries together. By the time the LB came around, he had a severe insecurity disorder. When he went to fight D, it was for a chance at glory.

 

Galad - Will do right no matter who it hurts. His flaw is that the one thing he won't sacrifice is this ideal. He wouldn't dream of cheating, even if it meant defeating D. He failed much as the oak falls and not the reed....he refused to bend.

 

Lan - Sacrifice. Lan would sacrifice everything to win. He went in expecting to die. That allowed him to sheathe the sword and take D out.

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Lan has fought essentially none stop and was half healed when he fought Demandred. Lan's POV stated that if he started fresh, things may have been different, not requiring the sheating the sword.

 

Demandred having "centuries" of practice with the blade.

 

Demandred did think Lan was LTT/presumably the #1 blademaster in AoL, stated nobody "in this AGE" could be that good, thus Lan > Jearom.

 

I would assume that Demandred was #2 blademaster in AoL and Demandred Pov in River of Souls stated he thought nobody was his better with the sword given his recent practice.

 

Lan > Rand > Galad > Gawyn, according to BS. Galad and Gawyn never stood a chance against Demandred.

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When Lan and Demandred engaged in the duel, Lan notices that they are encircled by Sharans. He infers that this means Demandred is so confident in his sword fighting ability that he has forbidden his followers to interfere. Demandred's death is confirmed by the perspective of his Sharan girlfriend (or whatever). Then, somehow Lan is still alive, despite being stabbed in the stomach and surrounded by the enemy (some of whom held crossbows, while others were presumably Ayyad.) It seems like that aspect of the plot was seriously overlooked, because Lan would have been killed by Demandred's followers. It's not as if he could have dispatched dozens of crossbowmen by himself, especially wounded.

 

I apologize if this has been mentioned previously, but it would be extremely difficult to search for something as specific as this. What are the thoughts of the community on this?

 

Welcome to the boards ashesofman.

 

I've read some speculation that Rand helped Lan live based on the timing of Lan's 'death' and Rands 'that man still lives' speech.  I'm not sure I follow that, but I guess it's possible to assume that the enemy thought Lan was dead until he stood up at which point seeing Demandreds head caused them to give up.  It's not my favourite part of the book.

 

I think BS said that something to the extent that this was what he and RJ had specifically intended, but that it wasn't wrong either, i.e. its up to the reader to decide.  However, even if Rand had interfered and brought Lan back from the dead/the brink of death, it still took some time for Mat and his little group to get to Lan.  Even if this was only 30 seconds, this would still have been plenty of time to turn him into a pin cushion.

 

From what I gathered reading it, it didn't matter that Lan was surrounded.  They were in such shock, combined with the fact that their "savior" had been cut down, I almost took it that in slaying Demandred, Lan became leader of the Sharans.  The disorganization following and the panic that the Dem's armies suffered immediately after plunged everything into chaos.  They were effectively broken by that point.

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I like this. Although I think i prefer the comment: "He died because he didn't realize he was a secondary protagonist."

 

Wow I assumed the body that was going to be used when the DF's were going to claim the queen was dead was Morgase, when Elayne said Ohh no. but Brandon says she lived.

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