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Crowbane

Rand's Power

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Oh I agree and at that point Mat has a better understanding of how it works. Like Mat said, his luck was in and that was the luckiest toss of the night.

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Oh I agree and at that point Mat has a better understanding of how it works. Like Mat said, his luck was in and that was the luckiest toss of the night.

 

Right. If I recall correctly he didn't think he would lose, he was just hoping he would. You could kind of say he controlled it without knowing he could.

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So no examples for Mat when he consciously chose? I made the difference clear. What I said was they don't control the pattern and they don't. Gaining a better understanding of how it works is not control.

 

Again if you are arguing the new powers are the same as being ta'veren make your case. If not give over. I tried to clarify my point and you seem to just ignore that part of the discussion to split hairs and argue. Par for the course really.

 

For the FOURTH time...Mat SAYS he learned how to lose a long time ago.

That IS a measure of control, if limited. End of story!

 

You said that they had no control at all, that is false. That is all I took issue with.

Edited by Finnssss

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So no examples for Mat when he consciously chose? I made the difference clear. What I said was they don't control the pattern and they don't. Gaining a better understanding of how it works is not control.

Again if you are arguing the new powers are the same as being ta'veren make your case. If not give over. I tried to clarify my point and you seem to just ignore that part of the discussion to split hairs and argue. Par for the course really.

 

 

For the FOURTH time...Mat SAYS he learned how to lose a long time ago.

That IS a measure of control, if limited. End of story!

 

You said that they had no control at all, that is false. That is all I took issue with.

When did he say that? Not saying it's not true, just can't recall it at the moment.

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So no examples for Mat when he consciously chose? I made the difference clear. What I said was they don't control the pattern and they don't. Gaining a better understanding of how it works is not control.

Again if you are arguing the new powers are the same as being ta'veren make your case. If not give over. I tried to clarify my point and you seem to just ignore that part of the discussion to split hairs and argue. Par for the course really.

For the FOURTH time...Mat SAYS he learned how to lose a long time ago.

That IS a measure of control, if limited. End of story!

 

You said that they had no control at all, that is false. That is all I took issue with.

When did he say that? Not saying it's not true, just can't recall it at the moment.

Further that was exactly my point, all the characters get a better understanding of how it works. Mat "learning how to loose" is merely the luck deciding what is luckiest at that moment and him understanding that's how it works. No amount of shrill responses and repetition changes that.

 

 

You said that they had no control at all, that is false. That is all I took issue with.

 

 I was replying to a poster who said:

 

 

 I feel it is symbolic of Rand finally learning to control the pattern itself. Using his Taveren nature to its fullest   

 

to which I responded:

 

 

Rand as the CoL very well may have gained new powers after SG but Ta'veren can't control the pattern. That's not how it works.

 

So again unless you think the new powers are ta'veren in nature the discussion is pointless.

Edited by Suttree

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aMoL Chpt 27:

“It’s not you.”

“He’s trying to decide when to assassinate me,” Mat said softly, gaze narrowing
toward Galgan. I ve been put right beneath him in the army, and
he worries I will supplant him. Tuon says he’s a dedicated soldier, so he’ll
wait until after the Last Battle to strike.”
“That’s awful!”
“I know,” Mat said. “He won’t play cards with me first. I was hoping I
could win him over. Lose on purpose a few times.”
“I don’t think you could manage that.”
“Actually, I figured out how to lose bloody ages ago.” He seemed to be
completely serious. “Tuon says it would be a sign of disrespect if he didn’t

try to kill me. They’re insane, Min. They’re all bloody insane.”

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That's not really true though.

 

 

Only in the case of absolute control would that be true and even that may just be exactly the truth following his "death".

Rand "exerts his will" upon the pattern more than a few times and even Matt "learned how to lose a long time ago", that is definitely a measure of control.

 

 

And my response still stands^

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Explain how Mat has control? Give one example where it was his conscious choice and he made it happen. The luck decides, not him.

 

Same with Rand, wanting something and exerting will is not the same as "controlling the pattern" like Rand seems to do post SG. Regardless it's splitting hairs unless you are arguing that whatever he can do post TG is because he is ta'veren not because he is the CoL who just fought the DO. That is the point of my first post. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

I already did explain it TWICE! Mat says he can lose anytime he wants. I'm really not sure what else needs to be said.

 

Mat saying he knows how to lose doesn't indicate that he actually can lose when he chooses, and that he controls his luck. Characters can be wrong in their beliefs, and as the quote you provided shows, when Mat said it it wasn't even his POV - was he being serious, or just deadpan? Can you show an example of it happening?

 

It's been a theme throughout the books about being ta'veren.

Fight the Pattern and you will be pushed, pulled or yanked violently. Ride the Pattern and you can eek out a small measure of control.

Of course, the indications in the books are that Mat's luck is not his being ta'veren - the two may overlap, but they are different things. So even if he does know how to lose, even if he does have a measure of control over his luck, it still doesn't indicate an ability to control ta'veren.

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Explain how Mat has control? Give one example where it was his conscious choice and he made it happen. The luck decides, not him.

 

Same with Rand, wanting something and exerting will is not the same as "controlling the pattern" like Rand seems to do post SG. Regardless it's splitting hairs unless you are arguing that whatever he can do post TG is because he is ta'veren not because he is the CoL who just fought the DO. That is the point of my first post. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

I already did explain it TWICE! Mat says he can lose anytime he wants. I'm really not sure what else needs to be said.

 

Mat saying he knows how to lose doesn't indicate that he actually can lose when he chooses, and that he controls his luck. Characters can be wrong in their beliefs, and as the quote you provided shows, when Mat said it it wasn't even his POV - was he being serious, or just deadpan? Can you show an example of it happening?

 

It's been a theme throughout the books about being ta'veren.

Fight the Pattern and you will be pushed, pulled or yanked violently. Ride the Pattern and you can eek out a small measure of control.

Of course, the indications in the books are that Mat's luck is not his being ta'veren - the two may overlap, but they are different things. So even if he does know how to lose, even if he does have a measure of control over his luck, it still doesn't indicate an ability to control ta'veren.

 

 

Try giving tGS-27 a quick re-read

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Generally one actually quotes what they are referencing when trying to support a point but I'll do the work for you and post the relevant part in terms of control.

 

TGS

Mat held his breath. It had been a long while since he'd had reason to worry about a toss of the dice. He leaned down, watching the white cubes tumble against the dirt. How would his luck react to someone else throwing?

 

He has a better understanding of how it works, and so can use it to his advantage when needed, he certainly doesn't consciously control it as this quite clearly shows.

Edited by Suttree

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Rand is influencing the Pattern pre SG, although to a limited area, which is countering Shai'tan's influence.  The sky, the trees, the fauna and freak accidents do not happen in his presence (3 mile radius or so). One with the Land, sure, but that is controlling the Pattern directly. Supposedly ta'avern can't do this, but there it is.

 

Post SG, his Powers have moved to another level.

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As we know the Dragon Reborn/CoL is one with the land and when Rand comes out of his darkness, we see the positive side to that. That is a totally seperate issue and happens because of who he is/what his frame of mind is.

 

Not sure what you mean by freak accidents not happening, do you mean bubbles of evil?

 

Lastly agreed post SG he has gained new powers. I have seen it put forth that he may have learned to actually "channel" the threads of pattern during that confrontation.

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Generally one actually quotes what they are referencing when trying to support a point but I'll do the work for you and post the relevant part in terms of control.

 

TGS

Mat held his breath. It had been a long while since he'd had reason to worry about a toss of the dice. He leaned down, watching the white cubes tumble against the dirt. How would his luck react to someone else throwing?

 

He has a better understanding of how it works, and so can use it to his advantage when needed, he certainly doesn't consciously control it as this quite clearly shows.

 

 

Really, you cherry pick that line eh?

What about the whole rest of the chapter leading up to that one toss? Remind me again what was happening? Oh, that's right he was losing on purpose and A LOT!

 

Like seriously at this point...c'mon.

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Considering it's a clear comment on whether Mat can consciously choose or not, yes that is what we should use.

 

Not sure what you aren't comprehending about Mat figuring out the luck will lose if that is what is luckiest at any given time. Again he has a better understanding of how it works, but the above quote shows he can't consciously choose to make it work.

 

That is a "fact, "This isn't a hard concept to grasp and I won't be explaining it further, nor should I need to."

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Considering it's a clear comment on whether Mat can consciously choose or not, yes that is what we should use.

 

Not sure what you aren't comprehending about Mat figuring out the luck will lose if that is what is luckiest at any given time. Again he has a better understanding of how it works, but the above quote shows he can't consciously choose to make it work.

 

That is a "fact, "This isn't a hard concept to grasp and I won't be explaining it further, nor should I need to."

 

Actually, all it shows is that he's not sure if it works when he's not the one throwing the dice. He had never tested it before. THAT was the only unknown for him and like I said, it's a cherry picked line that ignores the mountain of evidence leading up to that line. 

 

The whole rest of the chapter, while he is one throwing the dice, he is losing on purpose.

Those are actually the facts!

Edited by Finnssss

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What you said was:

 

Mat says he can lose anytime he wants.

 

Not only is that not what he said, we have a clear pov that show he doesn't think that. You now seem to be claiming Mat thinks his luck only works with dice and when he is tossing them? We know this to be false and we know he can't choose. It's the luck that decides what is "luckiest" based on the situation.  You haven't even been trying to disprove that. Taking advantage of ones ta'veren nature because you understand how it works does not equal controlling the pattern.

 

Look let's use a surfing analogy here. Just because you understand how a wave works and can catch it to "ride"/do tricks etc, does not mean you are "controlling" the wave. Similarly Mat is not "controlling" the pattern. The pattern is choosing what it needs for Mat to be the best corrective mechanism he can be in accomplishing his tasks and the luck reacts accordingly to what is luckiest at any given time. So even if he learns how it works and can "ride" it, it doesn't mean he is controlling it. Does that make it a bit more clear.

Edited by Suttree

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Not only is that not what he said,

 

It's exactly what he said, that he learned how to lose bloody ages ago.

 

 

 

we have a clear pov that show he doesn't think that. You now seem to be claiming Mat thinks his luck only works with dice and when he is tossing them? We know this to be false and we know he can't choose.

 

No, I'm not claiming that Mat thinks it only works when he is throwing the dice, I'm claiming, as it clearly shows, that he simply has never tried it with someone else throwing the dice for him. It's not that he thinks it doesn't work, he just doesn't know.

 

 

 

It's the luck that decides what is "luckiest" based on the situation.  You haven't even been trying to disprove that. Taking advantage of ones ta'veren nature because you understand how it works does not equal controlling the pattern.

 

Never said he could completely control the pattern.

You are the one dealing in absolutes, you seem to be of the opinion that you either control all or nothing. My opinion from the start of this has been that it's not absolute either way. That both Rand and Mat have demonstrated an ability to affect a small measure of control.

Could Rand actually cause Cad's heart to stop? Prolly not.

Can Rand exert a measure of control to restore order to Bandar Eben? Yep.

Can Mat win or lose at dice or cards whenever he wants? Yep

 

 

 

 

Look let's use a surfing analogy here. Just because you understand how a wave works and can catch it to "ride"/do tricks etc, does not mean you are "controlling" the wave. Similarly Mat is not "controlling" the pattern. The pattern is choosing what it needs for Mat to be the best corrective mechanism he can be in accomplishing his tasks and the luck reacts accordingly to what is luckiest at any given time. So even if he learns how it works and can "ride" it, it doesn't mean he is controlling it. Does that make it a bit more clear.

 

Lets look at another term, it's called "The Spin".

An attempt to "spin" or con volute the facts to avoid admitting being wrong. Or to make the answer to a simple question as complicated as possible in an attempt to avoid actually answering it. 

 

Simple question #1 is...Can Mat lose on purpose whenever he wants?

Simple answer is...Yes indeed he can.

 

Simple question #2 is...does this convey Mat a small, if limited measure of control of his ta'veren nature?

Simple answer...Yes it does.

Edited by Finnssss

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Not only is that not what he said,

It's exactly what he said, that he learned how to lose bloody ages ago.

Funny because you already quoted it he never claimed he can lose "anytime he wants". Are you referring to another passage?

“I know,” Mat said. “He won’t play cards with me first. I was hoping I

could win him over. Lose on purpose a few times.”

“I don’t think you could manage that.”

“Actually, I figured out how to lose bloody ages ago.”

 

 

Regardless the other quote shows your claim to be false. He openly questions whether his luck will work when he wants it to. Splitting hairs about "who held" the dice is utterly beside the point.

Simple question #1 is...Can Mat lose on purpose whenever he wants?

 

Simple answer is...Yes indeed he can.

The answer is most certainly not "whenever he wants". Especially if he wanted to win/lose for something that would go against the patterns needs at any given time. We know ta'veren can come into conflict with each other per RJ. What if Mat wanted his luck to make him win for something that would impact Rand in a way that hurt his chances of defeating the DO?

 

Hilarious also that you would imply such a simple analogy is an attempt to make things "complicated". "Riding" is not "controlling", Mat understands how things work. End of. I mean understand why you would continue to avoid things as after all these posts it's clear you don't have a rebuttal to this point, nor are you worried about the actual main issue I raised in response to Mithrin.

Edited by Suttree

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Reading you guys debate has me wondering if Mat's luck and Rand's lighting of the pipe are related. Now I don't want to wade into your argument, but I would say that even if you believe that Mat cannot control his luck, that does not mean that he never can, it just means that he does not know how to. RJ's world is filled with mysteries. His world contains multiple magic systems, but other than the use of the One Power they have not been explored. We have only met one sniffer, two wolf brothers, and Mat. For most of the series Mat does not understand his luck or how it works, just that when the "dice" begin to tumble something major is about to happen. Whether Mat can actually control his luck or not I will let you guys continue on in your debate because I am actually enjoying it. However, I would like to ask the question if you think there is a difference between flipping a coin and having it balance on its side, rolling a winning hand all night long, and lighting a pipe?

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 However, I would like to ask the question if you think there is a difference between flipping a coin and having it balance on its side, rolling a winning hand all night long, and lighting a pipe?

 

Just in response to this.

 

Yes, that act was inherently different. 

 

Ta'veren bends probabilities, so things will happen that have a 1 in a million chance of happening. Such as a coin balancing on its side. It is possible, but very, very, very unlikely. 

 

Even if we say that Rand or Mat CAN control the Pattern - they can only make things that can happen, happen. They can't create a Dragon from thin air or kill a person just by wishing it. It has to be in the realms of possibility. 

 

A pipe spontaneously lighting is impossible; there is no way it could ever happen. Thus some kind of power is behind it. 

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Explain how Mat has control? Give one example where it was his conscious choice and he made it happen. The luck decides, not him.

 

Same with Rand, wanting something and exerting will is not the same as "controlling the pattern" like Rand seems to do post SG. Regardless it's splitting hairs unless you are arguing that whatever he can do post TG is because he is ta'veren not because he is the CoL who just fought the DO. That is the point of my first post. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

I already did explain it TWICE! Mat says he can lose anytime he wants. I'm really not sure what else needs to be said.

 

Mat saying he knows how to lose doesn't indicate that he actually can lose when he chooses, and that he controls his luck. Characters can be wrong in their beliefs, and as the quote you provided shows, when Mat said it it wasn't even his POV - was he being serious, or just deadpan? Can you show an example of it happening?

 

It's been a theme throughout the books about being ta'veren.

Fight the Pattern and you will be pushed, pulled or yanked violently. Ride the Pattern and you can eek out a small measure of control.

Of course, the indications in the books are that Mat's luck is not his being ta'veren - the two may overlap, but they are different things. So even if he does know how to lose, even if he does have a measure of control over his luck, it still doesn't indicate an ability to control ta'veren.

Try giving tGS-27 a quick re-read

I'm a sadist, not a masochist. How about you re-read, and provide the relevant quotes, as the burden of proof lies with you. Also, nothing you've said since this post has rebutted the point that Mat's luck is separate and distinct from his being ta'veren (as evidenced by various quotes from the RJ books). So even if he can control his luck, that is meaningless in the context of if it's possible for either him or Rand to control his being ta'veren.

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 However, I would like to ask the question if you think there is a difference between flipping a coin and having it balance on its side, rolling a winning hand all night long, and lighting a pipe?

 

Just in response to this.

 

Yes, that act was inherently different. 

 

Ta'veren bends probabilities, so things will happen that have a 1 in a million chance of happening. Such as a coin balancing on its side. It is possible, but very, very, very unlikely. 

 

Even if we say that Rand or Mat CAN control the Pattern - they can only make things that can happen, happen. They can't create a Dragon from thin air or kill a person just by wishing it. It has to be in the realms of possibility. 

 

A pipe spontaneously lighting is impossible; there is no way it could ever happen. Thus some kind of power is behind it. 

 

 

You make a good point, however, an argument could be made that static electricity could have lit the pipe. Just sayin' you could... :wink:

 

My main point is that we can compare channelers because that is the main magic system in the series, so we know that Rand is unique in his abilities because there are others to compare him to. However, as far as sniffers go we only know what Hurin can do. We do not know if there are stronger sniffers that break out in hives if they encounter violent locations, or if some can die, we don't know if others can become "possessed" by the violence, or go crazy, we only know Hurin. Likewise, we have know idea if Min is a strong doomsayer, or a weak one because she is the only one in the series, perhaps other doomsayers can actually see the actual events happening above people's heads. We don't know, we  can only assume. Imagine how different we would view channelers if the only one RJ wrote about was Androl. So as far as Mat's "luck" goes we only know what he knows, and that is not much. So all I am floating out there is that perhaps Rand has the same ability as Mat's "luck" only his is stronger.

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I always assumed the Luck to be Mat's manifestation of Ta'averen. We only know three TA "personally" although we have heard of several historical TA. Perhaps even Logain was a 'minor' TA considering his history and circumstances. Artur Hawkwing who pretty much conquered the world, and LTT who Sealed the Bore, were Emperor Ta'averen. They both impacted history in such a way that was overshadowed only by one other person, Rand al'Thor, the DR, who won the fight against the DO and saved the world. Rand could be considered to be an Ultra-Emperor Ta'averen, but the nature of how his Ta'averen manifested (until the taint, and his self-hardening started making him melancholy) was similar. He become a leader, a builder, and what he needed, the Pattern provided. (He needed an army, Bashere shows up at his doorstep. He needs Ashaman, and Taim shows up). He twists chance, as all TA do, but it worked in a meta-building and empire-building context, for the most part. It also provided him with luck, as did his channeling. 

 

Perrin's Ta'averen nature manifested more as leadership, lordship and nation-building. He was just an average man thrust into leadership, but his TA rather than need guided people to listen. He ends up raising an army almost as an afterthought; but the true nature of Perrin is that people were willing to listen, willing to trust.

 

Mat manipulates chance. The odds of a farmer stumbling into a Doorway Terangreal in a city so protected and revered and sacred by its culture, that to merely enter the city without permission invited a swift execution. One was not permitted to speak of the city, acknowledge its existence to outsiders, etc. Yet an outlander (and Wetlander to boot!) receives permission to enter - although it must be difficult to refuse two ta'averen, especially when they ask nicely. This is arguably the first manifestation of Mat's luck. Then on the side of this doorway he unwittingly asks for the one thing that will establish his "cred" and allow him to eventually fight the last battle - memories. Another form of Luck.

 

Mat can guide and manipulate chance, he can make the improbable probable, in short, he can "juggle the odds". It works best when his need is really great (such as his life being in danger) and occasionally does not work at all.

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I always assumed the Luck to be Mat's manifestation of Ta'averen. We only know three TA "personally" although we have heard of several historical TA. Perhaps even Logain was a 'minor' TA considering his history and circumstances. Artur Hawkwing who pretty much conquered the world, and LTT who Sealed the Bore, were Emperor Ta'averen. They both impacted history in such a way that was overshadowed only by one other person, Rand al'Thor, the DR, who won the fight against the DO and saved the world. Rand could be considered to be an Ultra-Emperor Ta'averen, but the nature of how his Ta'averen manifested (until the taint, and his self-hardening started making him melancholy) was similar. He become a leader, a builder, and what he needed, the Pattern provided. (He needed an army, Bashere shows up at his doorstep. He needs Ashaman, and Taim shows up). He twists chance, as all TA do, but it worked in a meta-building and empire-building context, for the most part. It also provided him with luck, as did his channeling. 

 

Perrin's Ta'averen nature manifested more as leadership, lordship and nation-building. He was just an average man thrust into leadership, but his TA rather than need guided people to listen. He ends up raising an army almost as an afterthought; but the true nature of Perrin is that people were willing to listen, willing to trust.

 

Mat manipulates chance. The odds of a farmer stumbling into a Doorway Terangreal in a city so protected and revered and sacred by its culture, that to merely enter the city without permission invited a swift execution. One was not permitted to speak of the city, acknowledge its existence to outsiders, etc. Yet an outlander (and Wetlander to boot!) receives permission to enter - although it must be difficult to refuse two ta'averen, especially when they ask nicely. This is arguably the first manifestation of Mat's luck. Then on the side of this doorway he unwittingly asks for the one thing that will establish his "cred" and allow him to eventually fight the last battle - memories. Another form of Luck.

 

Mat can guide and manipulate chance, he can make the improbable probable, in short, he can "juggle the odds". It works best when his need is really great (such as his life being in danger) and occasionally does not work at all.

I'm not going to track down all the quotes, but I can give you a breakdown of the "Mat's luck is not ta'veren" theory. The first on screen instance of Mat's luck is in TGH, when Mat is gambling in Fal Dara, and he notes his win streak (it's not a Mat POV). In TDR, on the road to TV Mat gambled with Hurin, but his success lead to them playing only for coppers, and then not for money at all (this is off screen, and related later). When Mat makes his escape from the WT, we see his luck truly go off the charts, in a way we haven't seen seen before, and nor has he. During the chapters of him gambling in TV, he notes that he had always been lucky, but his luck increased after taking the dagger from SL, and has increased since the separation from the dagger (this being the first chance he's had to gamble since then). It's worth bearing in mind that all the boys became ta'veren shortly before the series began, and that some time passes before they reach SL, and Mat specifically notes that it was after SL that his luck increased. Further, he always considers the two things separately, at least in the RJ books - WH15 has a good example: "At first, he had believed it was his luck spreading, or perhaps being ta'veren finally coming in for something useful." Mat understands and accepts that he is ta'veren, but still sees it as separate and distinct from his luck. There's a lot of little bits of evidence which clearly suggest that Mat's luck is somehow related to his experience with the SL dagger, although the hows and whys are not clear.

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My problem is that im almost always posting from work, so i dont really have time to write a coherent and well quoted, well-researched theory. All i can say is that after all my numerous reads of the series, I still believe that Mat's luck is related, if not part of, his ta'averen nature. As for his strange luck when he left the WT (TPoD?) I don't recall seeing anything that sheds light on it. A somewhat farfetched explanation would be that Lanfear put a weave on him when he was recovering in the WT.

So my personal opinion/theory is that its somehow ta'averen related. And RJ has stated on more than one occasion that what a character believes is not necessarily correct or accurate. 

:smile:

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