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Rand's Power

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Min said to him "so they're dark friends?" He didn't answer. He said "they're not a threat".

 

I'd call that a guess and a bluff. I can't explain Maradon though. It's possible that they were already mad and paranoid and were simply afraid when Rand got there.

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According to Moridin, he just embraced the source so he could hear their heartbeats. He didn't accuse them of anything. He said "So it IS you"  That's when they gave themselves away. He never even spoke an accusation.  He just told them to tell others of their.... associations that they could no longer hide among his friends. It was all a bluff. 

That doesn't quite make sense to me.  The first time he did it there would be no reason their heart rates would increase because they wouldn't know he could do that.  Also, while we have seen plenty of cowardly darkfriend's, there are also some brave, heartless types who I don't think would start to panic and give themselves away to Rand.

 

I also have a query about how the Jesus-Rand quote.  My interpretation of it was that saying he wasn't Jesus referred to the fact that he didn't have any particular protection/special relationship to the Creator.  I don't really see how it parallels to Jesus with regard to his tricks/powers.  Historical evidence suggests that most of Jesus' miracles were not miracles but good and noble deeds which became vastly exaggerated in the telling.  So I find it a bit confusing. 

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According to Moridin, he just embraced the source so he could hear their heartbeats. He didn't accuse them of anything. He said "So it IS you"  That's when they gave themselves away. He never even spoke an accusation.  He just told them to tell others of their.... associations that they could no longer hide among his friends. It was all a bluff. 

That doesn't quite make sense to me.  The first time he did it there would be no reason their heart rates would increase because they wouldn't know he could do that.  Also, while we have seen plenty of cowardly darkfriend's, there are also some brave, heartless types who I don't think would start to panic and give themselves away to Rand.

 

I also have a query about how the Jesus-Rand quote.  My interpretation of it was that saying he wasn't Jesus referred to the fact that he didn't have any particular protection/special relationship to the Creator.  I don't really see how it parallels to Jesus with regard to his tricks/powers.  Historical evidence suggests that most of Jesus' miracles were not miracles but good and noble deeds which became vastly exaggerated in the telling.  So I find it a bit confusing. 

 

 

All religions are man made, we have to ignore any evidence, historical or otherwise. 

 

Rand has his miracles, rose from the dead. Rand is connected to the Creator's, the Creator's Chosen One. The Creator communicates with Rand twice (while not confirmed, the evidence strongly points to this being the Creator).

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But these two were afraid of him. He used them to spread the belief that he had some special power.

According to some, one of Verin's Last Letters was to Rand, speculation has it that she named those two as somewhat powerful darkfriends. Rand is seen pocketing a letter with a distinctive red seal.

 

 

 

According to Moridin, he just embraced the source so he could hear their heartbeats. He didn't accuse them of anything. He said "So it IS you"  That's when they gave themselves away. He never even spoke an accusation.  He just told them to tell others of their.... associations that they could no longer hide among his friends. It was all a bluff. 

That doesn't quite make sense to me.  The first time he did it there would be no reason their heart rates would increase because they wouldn't know he could do that.  Also, while we have seen plenty of cowardly darkfriend's, there are also some brave, heartless types who I don't think would start to panic and give themselves away to Rand.

 

I also have a query about how the Jesus-Rand quote.  My interpretation of it was that saying he wasn't Jesus referred to the fact that he didn't have any particular protection/special relationship to the Creator.  I don't really see how it parallels to Jesus with regard to his tricks/powers.  Historical evidence suggests that most of Jesus' miracles were not miracles but good and noble deeds which became vastly exaggerated in the telling.  So I find it a bit confusing. 

 

Rand has his miracles, rose from the dead. Rand is connected to the Creator's, the Creator's Chosen One. The Creator communicates with Rand twice (while not confirmed, the evidence strongly points to this being the Creator).

 

Where does Rand rise from the dead, aside from the Moridin bodyswap (which granted, can happen in ANY magic series)?

 

 

All religions are man made, we have to ignore any evidence, historical or otherwise. 

I don't know if that was intended to be sarcastic, but that is a very offensive statement for those who believe otherwise. I would appreciate it if you would modify your statement, thanks  :smile:

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But these two were afraid of him. He used them to spread the belief that he had some special power.

According to some, one of Verin's Last Letters was to Rand, speculation has it that she named those two as somewhat powerful darkfriends. Rand is seen pocketing a letter with a distinctive red seal.

 

 

 

 

 

It's seems pretty clear, to me anyway, that Verin's letter contained the information leading to Mattim Stepaneos first and foremost.

I find it doubtful that she would be able to actually name names.

That she knows (from the Dark friend social) that a High Lord of Tear is among their ranks and relayed such to Rand in the letter is the much more likely option IMO. 

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But these two were afraid of him. He used them to spread the belief that he had some special power.

According to some, one of Verin's Last Letters was to Rand, speculation has it that she named those two as somewhat powerful darkfriends. Rand is seen pocketing a letter with a distinctive red seal.

 

 

 

 

 

It's seems pretty clear, to me anyway, that Verin's letter contained the information leading to Mattim Stepaneos first and foremost.

I find it doubtful that she would be able to actually name names.

That she knows (from the Dark friend social) that a High Lord of Tear is among their ranks and relayed such to Rand in the letter is the much more likely option IMO. 

 

She intended to have those letters delivered to him after her death, so its very possible she did name them. It's also possible that she just hinted at them, and rand was smart enough to figure it out.

As for Mattim Stepanos, very possibly.

Edited by jedman67

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But these two were afraid of him. He used them to spread the belief that he had some special power.

According to some, one of Verin's Last Letters was to Rand, speculation has it that she named those two as somewhat powerful darkfriends. Rand is seen pocketing a letter with a distinctive red seal.

 

 

 

 

 

It's seems pretty clear, to me anyway, that Verin's letter contained the information leading to Mattim Stepaneos first and foremost.

I find it doubtful that she would be able to actually name names.

That she knows (from the Dark friend social) that a High Lord of Tear is among their ranks and relayed such to Rand in the letter is the much more likely option IMO. 

 

She intended to have those letters delivered to him after her death, so its very possible she did name them. It's also possible that she just hinted at them, and rand was smart enough to figure it out.

As for Mattim Stepanos, very possibly.

 

 

I just meant that there's no way to prove that Verin actually knew their names to relay to Rand. All we know for sure is that she was aware that a High Lord of Tear was a DF. That would be enough to relay to Rand and it fits with the way Rand ferreted him out and reacted to that revelation.

 

The Stepaneos thing is pretty much 100%...He was "left" the information, not told the information. Only one person, other than Mo "left" him anything and we know exactly what was in Mo's letter.

 

 

 

ToM-32:

"The King of Arad Doman. Where did she find him?" Min said.

"How did you know?"

"A friend left me a secret," Rand said. "The White Tower collected Mattin Stepaneos to 'protect' him. Well, it wasn't too much of a leap to wonder if they might have done that with other monarchs...

Edited by Finnssss

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But these two were afraid of him. He used them to spread the belief that he had some special power.

According to some, one of Verin's Last Letters was to Rand, speculation has it that she named those two as somewhat powerful darkfriends. Rand is seen pocketing a letter with a distinctive red seal.

 

 

 

According to Moridin, he just embraced the source so he could hear their heartbeats. He didn't accuse them of anything. He said "So it IS you"  That's when they gave themselves away. He never even spoke an accusation.  He just told them to tell others of their.... associations that they could no longer hide among his friends. It was all a bluff. 

That doesn't quite make sense to me.  The first time he did it there would be no reason their heart rates would increase because they wouldn't know he could do that.  Also, while we have seen plenty of cowardly darkfriend's, there are also some brave, heartless types who I don't think would start to panic and give themselves away to Rand.

 

I also have a query about how the Jesus-Rand quote.  My interpretation of it was that saying he wasn't Jesus referred to the fact that he didn't have any particular protection/special relationship to the Creator.  I don't really see how it parallels to Jesus with regard to his tricks/powers.  Historical evidence suggests that most of Jesus' miracles were not miracles but good and noble deeds which became vastly exaggerated in the telling.  So I find it a bit confusing. 

 

Rand has his miracles, rose from the dead. Rand is connected to the Creator's, the Creator's Chosen One. The Creator communicates with Rand twice (while not confirmed, the evidence strongly points to this being the Creator).

 

Where does Rand rise from the dead, aside from the Moridin bodyswap (which granted, can happen in ANY magic series)?

 

 

All religions are man made, we have to ignore any evidence, historical or otherwise. 

I don't know if that was intended to be sarcastic, but that is a very offensive statement for those who believe otherwise. I would appreciate it if you would modify your statement, thanks  :smile:

 

 

This is similar to Jesus rising from the dead.

 

As for that latter comment, just stating a fact and in no way meant to be offensive.

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Entreri, on 24 Apr 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

 

 

jedman67, on 22 Apr 2013 - 4:17 PM, said:

 

 

Aulduron, on 17 Apr 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

 

But these two were afraid of him. He used them to spread the belief that he had some special power.

According to some, one of Verin's Last Letters was to Rand, speculation has it that she named those two as somewhat powerful darkfriends. Rand is seen pocketing a letter with a distinctive red seal.

Entreri, on 17 Apr 2013 - 1:05 PM, said:

 

 

Rhienne, on 17 Apr 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

 

 

Aulduron, on 16 Apr 2013 - 9:49 PM, said:

 

According to Moridin, he just embraced the source so he could hear their heartbeats. He didn't accuse them of anything. He said "So it IS you" That's when they gave themselves away. He never even spoke an accusation. He just told them to tell others of their.... associations that they could no longer hide among his friends. It was all a bluff.

That doesn't quite make sense to me. The first time he did it there would be no reason their heart rates would increase because they wouldn't know he could do that. Also, while we have seen plenty of cowardly darkfriend's, there are also some brave, heartless types who I don't think would start to panic and give themselves away to Rand.

 

I also have a query about how the Jesus-Rand quote. My interpretation of it was that saying he wasn't Jesus referred to the fact that he didn't have any particular protection/special relationship to the Creator. I don't really see how it parallels to Jesus with regard to his tricks/powers. Historical evidence suggests that most of Jesus' miracles were not miracles but good and noble deeds which became vastly exaggerated in the telling. So I find it a bit confusing.

Rand has his miracles, rose from the dead. Rand is connected to the Creator's, the Creator's Chosen One. The Creator communicates with Rand twice (while not confirmed, the evidence strongly points to this being the Creator).

Where does Rand rise from the dead, aside from the Moridin bodyswap (which granted, can happen in ANY magic series)?

Quote

All religions are man made, we have to ignore any evidence, historical or otherwise.

I don't know if that was intended to be sarcastic, but that is a very offensive statement for those who believe otherwise. I would appreciate it if you would modify your statement, thanks :smile:

This is similar to Jesus rising from the dead.

 

As for that latter comment, just stating a fact and in no way meant to be offensive.

Neither Rand nor Moridin were dead (yet) at the time of the bodyswap. jesus rose from the dead in his own body. Edited by jedman67

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At the end he could not draw on Saidin or True Power but he does have something else;

 

He regarded his pipe, riding up a little incline to the side of Thakan'dar, now covered in plants.  No way to light the tabac.  He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit.  And it was.

 

???

 

 

I feel it is symbolic of Rand finally learning to control the pattern itself.  Using his Taveren nature to its fullest   

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Rand as the CoL very well may have gained new powers after SG but Ta'veren can't control the pattern. That's not how it works.

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At the end he could not draw on Saidin or True Power but he does have something else;

 

He regarded his pipe, riding up a little incline to the side of Thakan'dar, now covered in plants.  No way to light the tabac.  He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit.  And it was.

 

???

 

 

I feel it is symbolic of Rand finally learning to control the pattern itself.  Using his Taveren nature to its fullest   

 

Smaug lives!!!  :wink:

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Here are a couple thoughts on Rand's pipe:

 

He began by trying to channel Saidin, but couldn't do it. Then he tried to channel the True Power, and couldn't do that either. Then he wasn't surprised when he lit his pipe by thought, but it did catch the attention of Min, Aviendha, and Elayne through their bond, so he obviously tried something different that would not have surprised him, but was different enough to catch the attention of the people he was bonded to.

 

Theory #1: I think that when he was weaving the Dark One's new prison that he somehow gained access to all three powers, Saidin, Saidar, and the True Power, so he lit his pipe using all three. So he didn't just think his pipe lit, he attempted to channel all three powers at once and was able to.

 

Theory #2: During his time with the Dark One, Rand occassionally ran his hand through the pattern, which linked him to the pattern more deeply than before.

 

Theory #3: The pipe is a seal to the Dark One's prison, and contains remnants to the True Power, and True Source, so anyone holding the pipe can access all three.

 

I kind of like the thought of Rand just simply being a wandering Odysseus type with no other power than the pipe, to be honest.

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Rand as the CoL very well may have gained new powers after SG but Ta'veren can't control the pattern. That's not how it works.

That's not really true though.

Only in the case of absolute control would that be true and even that may just be exactly the truth following his "death".

Rand "exerts his will" upon the pattern more than a few times and even Matt "learned how to lose a long time ago", that is definitely a measure of control.

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As I said after SG that may be true but the pattern until that point used Ta'veren, not the other way around. Rand for instance could not have stopped Cads heart, it was a scare tactic. His use of the pattern at the end comes from the nature of his battle with the DO, not prexisting ta'veren powers.

 

As for Mat he is lucky for whatever he needs at a given time. That doesnt mean only winning. It isn't up to him when it happens.

Edited by Suttree

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I put "Learned how to lose a long time ago." in quotes for a reason.

Mat has some measure of control, that's a fact, not an opinion and Rand exerted his will upon the pattern numerous times. Rand's first meeting with Tuon for example. That was definitely Rand exerting control.

 

You are arguing that they have no control at all and that's false. They don't seem to have absolute control to be sure but they have some. That's a fact.

Edited by Finnssss

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Explain how Mat has control? Give one example where it was his conscious choice and he made it happen. The luck decides, not him.

 

Same with Rand, wanting something and exerting will is not the same as "controlling the pattern" like Rand seems to do post SG. Regardless it's splitting hairs unless you are arguing that whatever he can do post TG is because he is ta'veren not because he is the CoL who just fought the DO. That is the point of my first post. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

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Explain how Mat has control? Give one example where it was his conscious choice and he made it happen. The luck decides, not him.

 

Same with Rand, wanting something and exerting will is not the same as "controlling the pattern" like Rand seems to do post SG. Regardless it's splitting hairs unless you are arguing that whatever he can do post TG is because he is ta'veren not because he is the CoL who just fought the DO. That is the point of my first post. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

I already did explain it TWICE! Mat says he can lose anytime he wants. I'm really not sure what else needs to be said.

 

It's been a theme throughout the books about being ta'veren.

Fight the Pattern and you will be pushed, pulled or yanked violently. Ride the Pattern and you can eek out a small measure of control.

 

Again, you are trying to deal in absolutes. You tried to say that they have no control at all which is clearly not the case. They do have some, if only a little.

 

This isn't a hard concept to grasp and I won't be explaining it further, nor should I need to. 

Edited by Finnssss

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To me, Rand was a little like the Doctor in many ways here. After all, Time Lords manipulate time and matter at will when they learn and develop to full strength, hence the First Law of Time: Observe. Never interfere. Perhaps Rand is showing an ability to control reality that will increase over time? 

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So no examples for Mat when he consciously chose? I made the difference clear. What I said was they don't control the pattern and they don't. Gaining a better understanding of how it works is not control.

 

Again if you are arguing the new powers are the same as being ta'veren make your case. If not give over. I tried to clarify my point and you seem to just ignore that part of the discussion to split hairs and argue. Par for the course really.

Edited by Suttree

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So no examples for Mat when he consciously chose? I made the difference clear. What I said was they don't control the pattern and they don't. Gaining a better understanding of how it works is not control.

 

Again if you are arguing the new powers are the same as being ta'veren make your case. If not give over. I tried to clarify my point and you seem to just ignore that part of the discussion to split hairs and argue. Par for the course really.

 

I don't know if I would call it choosing to lose, but at the hell in Maderin, Mat definitely wanted to lose his last toss. And he did.

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