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DRAGONMOUNT

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Crowbane

Rand's Power

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At the end he could not draw on Saidin or True Power but he does have something else;

 

He regarded his pipe, riding up a little incline to the side of Thakan'dar, now covered in plants.  No way to light the tabac.  He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit.  And it was.

 

???

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Maybe. It's a clear suggestion of such creator-powers, and I interpreted it as such, with the caveat that here was an ultimate power that lacked the ego-tugging quality of the other powers; in other words, Rand would not be tempted to play God, because only someone mature enough to resist such a temptation could have such powers bestowed upon him. If there's ever a future-based epilogue written for this story, I could see Rand having such powers--so long as they are used subtly.

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Yes, like the most powerful beings in DC or Marvel, he now has reality warping capabilities. However, the range and scope are limited imo.

 

He is not going to be able to turn the world into an apple (or create a universe) for instance or kill someone in another continent merely by thinking it (he can likely stop someone's heart if within sight...)  

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Well we got confirmation from Brandon that pre-SG/LB he wasn't "Jesus Rand". Many of his seeming new powers after DM were actually tricks. That said I feel his experience at SG in AMoL changed him and he now has some connection to the pattern. Really hope we get more on this topic.

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In SG he manipulated the threads of the pattern... so I saw lighting a pipe as no different than the heat happened to be where he wanted it, a power he threatened he had back when he was mad

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so I saw lighting a pipe as no different than the heat happened to be where he wanted it, a power he threatened he had back when he was mad

 

Are you referring to his taveren abilities to influence chance?

It seems to me that now he has a power he didn't have before (or couldn't control).

Edited by A Duke

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Well we got confirmation from Brandon that pre-SG/LB he wasn't "Jesus Rand". Many of his seeming new powers after DM were actually tricks. That said I feel his experience at SG in AMoL changed him and he now has some connection to the pattern. Really hope we get more on this topic.

 

Brandon dialing back? Pre-retcon? Jesus Rand he was to a lesser extent. DF's going mad when he channelled, them being blinded, he had vast impact on the Pattern (not present in any other ta'avern). 

 

Moridin's comment about heartbeats was a silly attempt.

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It's explained early in MoL that his ta'veren nature connects him to the Pattern in a deeper way - the pattern uses his Ta'veren nature to repair itself. But causing the grass to grow or the apples to bloom is very different than magically lighting his pipe. 

Perhaps his ability to weave the pattern directly is this new ability, but i really don't like this ending at all.

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It's explained early in MoL that his ta'veren nature connects him to the Pattern in a deeper way - the pattern uses his Ta'veren nature to repair itself. But causing the grass to grow or the apples to bloom is very different than magically lighting his pipe. 

Perhaps his ability to weave the pattern directly is this new ability, but i really don't like this ending at all.

 

But is that (apples/grass) ta'veren or the dragon being one with the land? 

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It's explained early in MoL that his ta'veren nature connects him to the Pattern in a deeper way - the pattern uses his Ta'veren nature to repair itself. But causing the grass to grow or the apples to bloom is very different than magically lighting his pipe. 

Perhaps his ability to weave the pattern directly is this new ability, but i really don't like this ending at all.

 

But is that (apples/grass) ta'veren or the dragon being one with the land? 

 

both - his ta'veren manifests itself as repairing the pattern. He could bend the pattern to his will, in small ways

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Being on with the land and combination ta'averen explains only so much. Does not explain DF's shieding away or going mad or the "Light" in his mind.

 

Rand Sedai was essentially a mini-Creator at that point and eventually after SG battle, he has reality altering powers.

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I thought the grass/flowers growing was connected to the Aiel song of growing?

It was. That has been confirmed by Brandon(not that it needed to be, we see him singing). Although his improved mood and "one with the land" Fisher King deal helped.

 

Again lets put Jesus Rand to bed:

 

Brandon

...one of the big things that made Team Jordan uncomfortable was Jesus Rand. I told them “It’s gonna work, because when you get to…” Harriet was like, “We can’t make him a deity. He can’t be a deity: he’s a person.” I’m like, “Don’t worry. When you read the last book, it will all come together, that he’s human.”

Edited by Suttree

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One of my favorite parts of this book was the reveals on how Rand was intentionally fooling people into thinking he had Messianic powers (the Song, the saidin heart monitor, the mud stomping at Maradon with the secret angreal). That was very well done. We got a glimpse of some genuine LTT in that, and what made him such a feared and respected individual- He was incredibly sneaky.  It would be fun to go back and read all of the Forsaken povs describing their views on the old LTT. They all viewed him somewhat differently- too aggressive, too timid, too honest, a lying hypocrite etc. I think that was a large part of his success, nobody really KNEW him, and they could never predict him. Thats the hallmark of a great general and a succesful  politician, and LTT was both. I knock Sanderson for a lot, but I do think he did Rand very, very well. RJ and Harriet were afraid Rand's humanity could get lost- I think that was one thing that didn't happen at all.

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I thought the grass/flowers growing was connected to the Aiel song of growing?

It was. That has been confirmed by Brandon(not that it needed to be, we see him singing). Although his improved mood and "one with the land" Fisher King deal helped.

 

Again lets put Jesus Rand to bed:

 

Brandon

...one of the big things that made Team Jordan uncomfortable was Jesus Rand. I told them “It’s gonna work, because when you get to…” Harriet was like, “We can’t make him a deity. He can’t be a deity: he’s a person.” I’m like, “Don’t worry. When you read the last book, it will all come together, that he’s human.”

 

 

Stopping a full circle shield, woven by at least 13 channelers (Taim would be chosing his strongest Asha'man/Black Ajah and very likely leading the circle himself). Titan.

 

He became much closer to diety after AMOL. He battled Shai'tan (equally as powerful as the Creator) and defeated it and had the Power to destroy it.

Thus  for a very brief momment, Rand's Power level >= Creator = Shai'tan.

 

Lastly, lighting the pipe without the presence of any Power. Unique reality altering powers.

Edited by Entreri

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I thought the grass/flowers growing was connected to the Aiel song of growing?

It was. That has been confirmed by Brandon(not that it needed to be, we see him singing). Although his improved mood and "one with the land" Fisher King deal helped.

 

Again lets put Jesus Rand to bed:

 

Brandon

...one of the big things that made Team Jordan uncomfortable was Jesus Rand. I told them “It’s gonna work, because when you get to…” Harriet was like, “We can’t make him a deity. He can’t be a deity: he’s a person.” I’m like, “Don’t worry. When you read the last book, it will all come together, that he’s human.”

 

 

Stopping a full circle shield, woven by at least 13 channelers (Taim would be chosing his strongest Asha'man/Black Ajah and very likely leading the circle himself). Titan.

 

He became much closer to diety after AMOL. He battled Shai'tan (equally as powerful as the Creator) and defeated it and had the Power to destroy it.

Thus  for a very brief momment, Rand's Power level >= Creator = Shai'tan.

 

Lastly, lighting the pipe without the presence of any Power. Unique reality altering powers.

 

Oh I agree post SG he ascended to new powers based on his experience with the pattern. I also know there are a few things I would be interested to hear explanations for such as blinding the DF's. Bottom line though, post VoG but pre SG he was not Jesus Rand.

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I wonder about the heart-monitor weave, it doesn't seem to fit. 

 

Now, I don't know the specifics of the principle of lie-detectors, but it must be one hell of a complicated weave. A general heartbeat monitor wouldn't work. 

 

It would only tell if they were nervous, and I'm pretty sure every single one of them would be nervous. After all, they are facing down a male channeler who - last time they saw- was mostly insane and nearly balefired his own father.

 

So it would have to be a more complex weave, which could determine sincerity somehow. Or he used that, combined with other things, like looking into their eyes and "discerning" the truth of it. Perhaps it was a part of the letter he recieved from Verin. 

 

It just doesn't seem very well thought out- that for some reason all of the non-DF would be perfectly open, and that the DF's would be nervous as hell. 

 

Obviously, the DF's WOULD be - but so would the others. Not to mention they had no idea what he was actually looking for. They didn't all know - "oh, he is checking to see if we are Darkfriends, I'm sweet". Certainly they would suspect it, but they would be weary surely. Look at the history Rand has with the High Lords/Ladies. He has already hanged a few of them in non-shadow related incidents. His nature has not really been the most stable and predictable. 

 

Darlin could have been scared that Rand had come back and would now dethrone him as a traitor in a change of mind. Who knows what else the High Lords and Ladies have been up to behind Rand's backs. There would be innumerable questionable meeetings/deeds/alliances that they could be worried about uncovering. 

 

The whole situation doesn't make sense if it is just a heartbeat monitor. Rand would have to have some other way to confirm it. That doesn't mean I subscribe to any supernatural power - although it is a valid theory, considering the Maradon incident - but the excuse of a heartbeat monitoring weave doesn't sufficiently explain it for me. 

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That doesn't mean I subscribe to any supernatural power - although it is a valid theory, considering the Maradon incident -

Indeed. It's been clarified the battle part was due to the item of power(and frankly Brandon getting carried away with the description, recall him trying to back peddle before AMoL was released in the "Battle of the Temple" quote ) but the blinding of DFs? Would love an explanation there.

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I thought the grass/flowers growing was connected to the Aiel song of growing?

It was. That has been confirmed by Brandon(not that it needed to be, we see him singing). Although his improved mood and "one with the land" Fisher King deal helped.

 

Again lets put Jesus Rand to bed:

 

Brandon

...one of the big things that made Team Jordan uncomfortable was Jesus Rand. I told them “It’s gonna work, because when you get to…” Harriet was like, “We can’t make him a deity. He can’t be a deity: he’s a person.” I’m like, “Don’t worry. When you read the last book, it will all come together, that he’s human.”

 

 

Stopping a full circle shield, woven by at least 13 channelers (Taim would be chosing his strongest Asha'man/Black Ajah and very likely leading the circle himself). Titan.

 

He became much closer to diety after AMOL. He battled Shai'tan (equally as powerful as the Creator) and defeated it and had the Power to destroy it.

Thus  for a very brief momment, Rand's Power level >= Creator = Shai'tan.

 

Lastly, lighting the pipe without the presence of any Power. Unique reality altering powers.

 

Oh I agree post SG he ascended to new powers based on his experience with the pattern. I also know there are a few things I would be interested to hear explanations for such as blinding the DF's. Bottom line though, post VoG but pre SG he was not Jesus Rand.

 

 

Post VoG, he did amazing things that no other mortal could do. Apples, growth of various agriculture, impact on DF's, amazing feats at Maradon, combat against a full circle...Jesus Rand.

 

Post SG he is closer to Creator Rand.

 

If the point of AMOL was to ensure that Rand was merely just another mortal, then something along the lines of the following needed to be done:

 

1/ Full circle vs Rand never happens

2/ Minor agricultural growth but that is it

3/ Merely repairing the patch and no direct confrontation with the all powerful Shai'tan

4/ Most importantly no lighting of the pipe

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I thought the grass/flowers growing was connected to the Aiel song of growing?

It was. That has been confirmed by Brandon(not that it needed to be, we see him singing). Although his improved mood and "one with the land" Fisher King deal helped.

 

Again lets put Jesus Rand to bed:

 

Brandon

...one of the big things that made Team Jordan uncomfortable was Jesus Rand. I told them “It’s gonna work, because when you get to…” Harriet was like, “We can’t make him a deity. He can’t be a deity: he’s a person.” I’m like, “Don’t worry. When you read the last book, it will all come together, that he’s human.”

 

 

Stopping a full circle shield, woven by at least 13 channelers (Taim would be chosing his strongest Asha'man/Black Ajah and very likely leading the circle himself). Titan.

 

He became much closer to diety after AMOL. He battled Shai'tan (equally as powerful as the Creator) and defeated it and had the Power to destroy it.

Thus  for a very brief momment, Rand's Power level >= Creator = Shai'tan.

 

Lastly, lighting the pipe without the presence of any Power. Unique reality altering powers.

 

Oh I agree post SG he ascended to new powers based on his experience with the pattern. I also know there are a few things I would be interested to hear explanations for such as blinding the DF's. Bottom line though, post VoG but pre SG he was not Jesus Rand.

 

 

Post VoG, he did amazing things that no other mortal could do. Apples, growth of various agriculture, impact on DF's, amazing feats at Maradon, combat against a full circle...Jesus Rand.

 

Post SG he is closer to Creator Rand.

 

If the point of AMOL was to ensure that Rand was merely just another mortal, then something along the lines of the following needed to be done:

 

1/ Full circle vs Rand never happens

2/ Minor agricultural growth but that is it

3/ Merely repairing the patch and no direct confrontation with the all powerful Shai'tan

4/ Most importantly no lighting of the pipe

 

I fully believe post AMoL it was supposed to be ambiguous(in fact Brandon has said as much). Personally I think he has new powers after being that close to the pattern now. Regardless we have a clear quote for post VoG explaining no Jesus Rand at that time. He is the DR/one with the land however and that goes along way. Again though I would like to hear him put on the spot about the DF putting his eyes out. Just about everything else has been totally explained.

Edited by Suttree

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According to Moridin, he just embraced the source so he could hear their heartbeats. He didn't accuse them of anything. He said "So it IS you"  That's when they gave themselves away. He never even spoke an accusation.  He just told them to tell others of their.... associations that they could no longer hide among his friends. It was all a bluff. 

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The way i read that seen in the ToM is that Rand cut them off from the Dark One or broke their oaths. He said something like they are not a threat anymore, I... then he cut off.

Its just the way I read the scene.

 

Also, the ending would have been awesome if I never came here and read about the body switching

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I thought the grass/flowers growing was connected to the Aiel song of growing?

It was. That has been confirmed by Brandon(not that it needed to be, we see him singing). Although his improved mood and "one with the land" Fisher King deal helped.

 

Again lets put Jesus Rand to bed:

 

Brandon

...one of the big things that made Team Jordan uncomfortable was Jesus Rand. I told them “It’s gonna work, because when you get to…” Harriet was like, “We can’t make him a deity. He can’t be a deity: he’s a person.” I’m like, “Don’t worry. When you read the last book, it will all come together, that he’s human.”

 

 

Stopping a full circle shield, woven by at least 13 channelers (Taim would be chosing his strongest Asha'man/Black Ajah and very likely leading the circle himself). Titan.

 

He became much closer to diety after AMOL. He battled Shai'tan (equally as powerful as the Creator) and defeated it and had the Power to destroy it.

Thus  for a very brief momment, Rand's Power level >= Creator = Shai'tan.

 

Lastly, lighting the pipe without the presence of any Power. Unique reality altering powers.

 

Oh I agree post SG he ascended to new powers based on his experience with the pattern. I also know there are a few things I would be interested to hear explanations for such as blinding the DF's. Bottom line though, post VoG but pre SG he was not Jesus Rand.

 

 

Post VoG, he did amazing things that no other mortal could do. Apples, growth of various agriculture, impact on DF's, amazing feats at Maradon, combat against a full circle...Jesus Rand.

 

Post SG he is closer to Creator Rand.

 

If the point of AMOL was to ensure that Rand was merely just another mortal, then something along the lines of the following needed to be done:

 

1/ Full circle vs Rand never happens

2/ Minor agricultural growth but that is it

3/ Merely repairing the patch and no direct confrontation with the all powerful Shai'tan

4/ Most importantly no lighting of the pipe

 

I fully believe post AMoL it was supposed to be ambiguous(in fact Brandon has said as much). Personally I think he has new powers after being that close to the pattern now. Regardless we have a clear quote for post VoG explaining no Jesus Rand at that time. He is the DR/one with the land however and that goes along way. Again though I would like to hear him put on the spot about the DF putting his eyes out. Just about everything else has been totally explained.

 

 

I almost forgot the Light in his mind protecting him from the taint. He also rose from the dead like Jesus.

 

Certainly no mere mortal post VoG and post SG.

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According to Moridin, he just embraced the source so he could hear their heartbeats. He didn't accuse them of anything. He said "So it IS you"  That's when they gave themselves away. He never even spoke an accusation.  He just told them to tell others of their.... associations that they could no longer hide among his friends. It was all a bluff. 

 

This is Brandon trying to pre-retcon Jesus Rand. Moridin assumes quite a lot and Rand stated Moridin's vision is small to Shaitan, who agreed but said he was a useful tool.

 

Only when they shied away from him because the "Light" was he sure they were DF's from what I recalled of that confrontation. DF's also went made at Maradon due to the "Light". 

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