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JenniferL

Egwene al'Vere: Jumped Up Inkeeper's Daughter

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Egwene realises she can learn from for example the Kin, the Windfinders and the Aiel, something most of the other Aes Sedai are unwilling to. That, in itself, shows she is willing to change and understands that she does not know everything. Sure, she becomes more and more arrogant as she grows more secure in her role as Amyrlin, but that is also pretty natural, the way I see it. 

 

You seem to dislike her because you generally dislike the WT and Aes Sedai, and she represents the WT faction. You can dislike the WT all you want, but I think it really clouds your judgment. Yes, she believes the WT are vital for the world to be a place of stability and peace. Can you blame her? She has been raised to the highest position within the WT. Even though she is very much a part of that institution, she also accepts they cannot - and should not - control everything, and that there will be other organizations of channelers. She wants them all to work together, but unlike her predecessors and many of her contemporary AS, she does not believe the WT way is the only way. She wants to connect the Windfinders and the Kin to the tower, yes, but in doing so, she also accepts that the sea folk channelers will not become Aes Sedai, but instead keep up the windfinder tradition. This, in itself, is a huge shift in the WT policy and world outlook.

 

She will strengthen the WT in a way it hasn't been strengthened in decades, maybe centuries, and under her rule, the WT becomes the seat of power it once was. You might dislike it, because you dislike the WT and AS in general, but that doesn't mean Egwene is bad at what she does, or a bad person. 

The innkeeper Egwene was set out for a simple life. The Amyrlin Egwene holds one of the most powerful positions of the continent, and she IS aware of her responsibilities. You say she doesn't care if people suffer on behalf of her, but I don't see that lack of caring in her at all. She is just very focused on what she believes has to be done. She still cares about other people, and want the "regular people" to live in peace and be left alone.

I agree Nynaeve has the biggest heart of them - she also grounds the other characters, when they are about to go too far. That doesn't mean all the others are heartless. 

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Egwene the leader is generally pretty good, she isn't perfect all the time, but she does learn mostly

 

Egwene the person isn't, and she doesn't demonstrably learn, shown mostly in her interactions with the people she's known since book 1 (treatment of Nyn in the dreamworld/treatment of Nyn during her testing etc)

 

Egwene the character suffers because from rejoining the Salidar Aes Sedai she's never amongst equals/superiors and most people root for the underdog. Her situation may not be great, but she's clearly better than everyone else around (Siuain excepted, but her purpose there is to help/guide Eg rather than challenge), so theirs a lack of tension. Compare to Elayne in Andor who has Nyn (as a superior some of the time), and Birgette who does what she wants. When she's captured by the black ajah there's genuine tension (imo) because elayne isn't in a strong position and isn't clearly better than everyone else

 

The only time I think Egwene was genuinely brought low was when made damane way back in book 2. Captured by the tower doesn't count because elaida was so clearly incompetent

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You added stuff to what I said.  I do not dislike the WT or Aes Sedai and I never said she doesn't care if people suffer.  I said she suffers from the "I have to always right and whatever she does is ok" mentality.  She does sort of believe the WT is the only way, she wants all women who can channel connected to the WT,  under WT influence.  Hence her anger at ELayne's deal with the kin. She is against others having influence with channelers.   What she started will be good for the tower but it doesn't change the reason why so many dislike her.  Again look at the things she does:

 

She humilitaes Nev in the dream world, manipulates and threatens Mat (her friend), blackmails sisters to swear oaths to her, she assumes Rand is wrong about the seals (even when Moriaine points out Rand was right) she still tries to deny it, her yelling at Rand to cover a mistake becuase she has to seem perfect, can't accept being wrong  so flips things and tries to make it seem like Rand was the one against the Aiel taking the fifth from the stone, etc..  Did she even consider asking Mat to help?  No she went right into threats about him being executed as Dragonsworn and manipulating him.  She complains how Aes Sedai have become yet  as soon as she becomes Amirlyin she has most of their bad habits. 

 

Her issue is if she does it, then it's ok to do.  Do you think she would be so calm and accepting had she discovered Aes Sedai were making other Aes Sedai swear oaths to them in order to keep secrets?  As someone else pointed out in a post, she has the greater good in mind but wants to do it the Aes Sedai way.  

Edited by Sabio

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from what I recall, Egwene does not seem to be like "I have to be right".

as far as I recall, she attempted to learn from any group she spent time with.

 

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From Rand POV in the Shadow Rising when they were leaving tear:

 

He laughed softly.  This was almost like old times, he ready to explain how and why she was wrong, and she snatching his position and tossing his own unvoiced explanation at him.  

 

She was against the Aiel taking things from the stone, until he pointed out Avi did.  "Rand do you really think it was right letting the Aiel take all those things"  then she changed to "Just because a people's ways are different doesn't mean they are wrong, Rand.  You should know that".

 

To not seem like she was wrong she went from why did you let them take all that and then tried to make it seem like that was Rand's position.  Because she didn't want to seem like she was wrong.

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On 3/8/2018 at 4:04 AM, OlwenaSedai said:

Egwene realises she can learn from for example the Kin, the Windfinders and the Aiel, something most of the other Aes Sedai are unwilling to. That, in itself, shows she is willing to change and understands that she does not know everything. Sure, she becomes more and more arrogant as she grows more secure in her role as Amyrlin, but that is also pretty natural, the way I see it. 

 

You seem to dislike her because you generally dislike the WT and Aes Sedai, and she represents the WT faction. You can dislike the WT all you want, but I think it really clouds your judgment. Yes, she believes the WT are vital for the world to be a place of stability and peace. Can you blame her? She has been raised to the highest position within the WT. Even though she is very much a part of that institution, she also accepts they cannot - and should not - control everything, and that there will be other organizations of channelers. She wants them all to work together, but unlike her predecessors and many of her contemporary AS, she does not believe the WT way is the only way. She wants to connect the Windfinders and the Kin to the tower, yes, but in doing so, she also accepts that the sea folk channelers will not become Aes Sedai, but instead keep up the windfinder tradition. This, in itself, is a huge shift in the WT policy and world outlook.

 

She will strengthen the WT in a way it hasn't been strengthened in decades, maybe centuries, and under her rule, the WT becomes the seat of power it once was. You might dislike it, because you dislike the WT and AS in general, but that doesn't mean Egwene is bad at what she does, or a bad person. 

The innkeeper Egwene was set out for a simple life. The Amyrlin Egwene holds one of the most powerful positions of the continent, and she IS aware of her responsibilities. You say she doesn't care if people suffer on behalf of her, but I don't see that lack of caring in her at all. She is just very focused on what she believes has to be done. She still cares about other people, and want the "regular people" to live in peace and be left alone.

I agree Nynaeve has the biggest heart of them - she also grounds the other characters, when they are about to go too far. That doesn't mean all the others are heartless. 

 

Egwene as a person is generally likeable and kind-hearted, if rather stubborn (she is from the Two Rivers after all). It's no coincidence that Min, Elayne, and Aviendha all like Egwene right away.

 

Her biggest fault is her ego. While she is open to new things and willing to learn, she believes herself to be exceptional and once she makes a decision or casts a judgment, she generally does not change her mind even in the face of contrary facts.

 

Her flaws became most exposed once she became the Amyrlin of the reunited White Tower. When she no longer had any opposition in the Tower, she lost any check and balance on her ego. She began to see what she wanted to believe. She refused to entertain the possibility that there might be other threats than Mesaana in the Tower, even when Gawyn presented her with evidence. She refused to budge from her idea that Rand destroying the Seals would be disastrous, even though she had no real evidence to support that position. Finally, and fatally, she refused to countenance the possibility of Gawyn dying and she herself being adversely affected by it. While she did concede to Silviana that Gawyn might die, it was obvious that she did not really believe it. She thought she could still save him, up until the moment the bond winks out.

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Maybe this has already been discussed (long thread, many entries) but what do you think Egewen's motivation was for her almost immediate acceptance of not only her fate to be Aes Sedai but Rand's fate as the dragon reborn?  Just read the chapter in TDR where Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve return to Tar Valon from Failme.  The narrative describes Egwene as feeling she has outgrown the Two Rivers, going so far as to call Tar Valon her new home and her role as Aes Sedai her new idenity.  She was the only Emond's Fielder to show little to no reluctance in leaving and was immediately accepting of her opportunity to become Aes Sedai.  Contrast this with the way that Rand, Perrin, Matt, and Nynaeve are all reluctant to accept any kind of larger fate or any role in the prophecies of the dragon, contuning long past the point were logic, reason, and the mountains of evidence should have made it very clear that all are Ta'veren and all will play a part in the prophecy.  Egwene was raised in the Two Rivers same as Rand, Matt, and Perrin.  Why did she never seem to really regret having lost that life, having lost her future with Rand, her eventual role as wisdom?  Maybe it was ego, maybe something more.  How many times does Perrin say "I'm just a blacksmith?"  Or Rand "I'm just a shepherd?"  Does Egweme ever say, "I'm just an inkeeper's daugther, a wisdom?"  Nynaeve used that loss as motivation for almost every action she took in the first half of the series - this sometimes juvenile intent to "make Moiraine pay for what she did."   

 

Egwene is also the only non-Aes Sedai to never show any distrust, fear, or bitterness toward the Aes Sedai or Moiraine in the early books.  Seems clear that Two River's folk, like most, are at least wary of Aes Sedai if not outright hostile toward them - but not Egwene.  She also seems to be the first one to accept that Rand is the dragon.   Naive?  Egotistical?  Robert Jordan made kind of big deal out his creation of reluctant heroes, wanting to contrast his hero with characters like Luke Skywalker or Frodo Baggins who immediately just follow along and yet that's excactly what he created in Egwene, almost to a fault. 

Edited by HighWiredSith

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17 minutes ago, HighWiredSith said:

Maybe this has already been discussed (long thread, many entries) but what do you think Egewen's motivation was for her almost immediate acceptance of not only her fate to be Aes Sedai but Rand's fate as the dragon reborn?  Just read the chapter in TDR where Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve return to Tar Valon from Failme.  The narrative describes Egwene as feeling she has outgrown the Two Rivers, going so far as to call Tar Valon her new home and her role as Aes Sedai her new idenity.  She was the only Emond's Fielder to show little to no reluctance in leaving and was immediately accepting of her opportunity to become Aes Sedai.  Contrast this with the way that Rand, Perrin, Matt, and Nynaeve are all reluctant to accept any kind of larger fate or any role in the prophecies of the dragon, contuning long past the point were logic, reason, and the mountains of evidence should have made it very clear that all are Ta'veren and all will play a part in the prophecy.  Egwene was raised in the Two Rivers same as Rand, Matt, and Perrin.  Why did she never seem to really regret having lost that life, having lost her future with Rand, her eventual role as wisdom?  Maybe it was ego, maybe something more.  How many times does Perrin say "I'm just a blacksmith?"  Or Rand "I'm just a shepherd?"  Does Egweme ever say, "I'm just an inkeeper's daugther, a wisdom?"  Nynaeve used that loss as motivation for almost every action she took in the first half of the series - this sometimes juvenile intent to "make Moiraine pay for what she did."   

 

Egwene is also the only non-Aes Sedai to never show any distrust, fear, or bitterness toward the Aes Sedai or Moiraine in the early books.  Seems clear that Two River's folk, like most, are at least wary of Aes Sedai if not outright hostile toward them - but not Egwene.  She also seems to be the first one to accept that Rand is the dragon.   Naive?  Egotistical?  Robert Jordan made kind of big deal out his creation of reluctant heroes, wanting to contrast his hero with characters like Luke Skywalker or Frodo Baggins who immediately just follow along and yet that's excactly what he created in Egwene, almost to a fault. 

 

Egwene is ambitious and longed for the world outside of the Two Rivers. That was obvious right from the start of EOTW. When presented with the opportunity to not only leave the TR, but to join an elite group of women, she jumped in without a moment's hesitation.

 

Note that Rand was the only one who really tried to deny being the Dragon Reborn up until he held Callandor. Everyone else pretty much accepted it as soon as they learned. They might not have liked it, but they accepted it. Further, the Prophecies only mentioned the Dragon. Matt, Perrin, and Nynaeve were never mentioned in the prophecies, so there couldn't have been any "mountain of evidence" that they would play any role.

 

Egwene and Rand were like high school sweethearts. They were teenagers and didn't really know what love was. They cared for each other, but like many highschoolers, once they graduated, they found other people and didn't look back.

 

As for distrusting Aes Sedai, Egwene is not the exception, it's Nynaeve. The women of Emond's Field were all accepting of Aes Sedai, as shown in Book 4. It was only Nynaeve that hated Moiraine for perceived sins.

 

Jordan was not out to create reluctant heroes, he wanted to show how a person would really react when told he was the Chosen One. Egwene was not "chosen", she jumped into the fray voluntariliy.

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On 8/29/2018 at 1:35 PM, solarz said:

 

Egwene is ambitious and longed for the world outside of the Two Rivers. That was obvious right from the start of EOTW. When presented with the opportunity to not only leave the TR, but to join an elite group of women, she jumped in without a moment's hesitation.

 

Note that Rand was the only one who really tried to deny being the Dragon Reborn up until he held Callandor. Everyone else pretty much accepted it as soon as they learned. They might not have liked it, but they accepted it. Further, the Prophecies only mentioned the Dragon. Matt, Perrin, and Nynaeve were never mentioned in the prophecies, so there couldn't have been any "mountain of evidence" that they would play any role.

 

Egwene and Rand were like high school sweethearts. They were teenagers and didn't really know what love was. They cared for each other, but like many highschoolers, once they graduated, they found other people and didn't look back.

 

As for distrusting Aes Sedai, Egwene is not the exception, it's Nynaeve. The women of Emond's Field were all accepting of Aes Sedai, as shown in Book 4. It was only Nynaeve that hated Moiraine for perceived sins.

 

Jordan was not out to create reluctant heroes, he wanted to show how a person would really react when told he was the Chosen One. Egwene was not "chosen", she jumped into the fray voluntariliy.

 

 

Right kinda what I had in mind basically.

 

so I guess also I kinda like these structured thread concept;;/idea things.

Edited by CrystallineTart

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