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Mangecoeur

Is It A Loss Or A Gain ?

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First of all, I would very much like you to be a tad bit merciful towards my grammar and spelling since I am not a native speaker.

Then, let's get to the heart of the matter which I assume has already been discussed on, but I could not find it in the Forum.

I suspect all of you have already finished AMoL, not to say devoured it from beginning 'til the very end of it, and found yourselves horribly frustrated with the end Robert Jordan & Brandon Sanderson chose. So, here's my question : Rand, whose soul has been reincarnated - or transfered - into Moridin's body, appears to not be able to channel anymore. When he seeks One Power and then True Power to light his pipe, he finds but nothing within the void.

However, it is written that "He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit. And it was." And there we are. Either my understanding of all of the nuances of the English language deceives in the most awkward fashion, either I understood it quite well and thus I am pondering : Rand THOUGHT his pipe being lit ! Has he found another source of Power ? Is it possible that somewhere in the Pattern lies another source of Power ? 
After all, when Lanfear used to be Mierin release accidentally the Dark One, she and a group of researchers of the Collam Daan were looking for something that women and men could use regardless of their gender, a force else than saidin and saidar. Admittedly, they find the True Power which can be used regardless of the gender for it is but the Lords of the Grave's very essence, but since it existed another source, why can't there be others ? 

 

I hope I made myself clear enough and if it has already been brought up, please be kind enough as to redirect me to the topic ! 

 

May you always find water and shade,

 

Mangecoeur.

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i think the pattern just got reenstrengthened by all the interaction from Rand this time to the Dark ones bore, when he combined true power and saidan saidar.... he jacked up the support of the world with the goodness..

 

and or directly linked... The Tarvalons Flame, REVERSE of Balefire, balefire destroys pattern Tarvalons flame RESTORES pattern

 

and all and all in.

 

 

Juice is sweet right now.

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There is a LOT of debate over how Rand lit his pipe. People have asked Brandon Sanderson, the new author, how Rand lit the pipe, but Brandon has said that he does not know because Jordan never explained it. What is clear is that Rand was not channeling either the One Power or the True Power.

 

Of course, readers have speculated on the answer. Some think that Rand no longer channels saidin or saidar, but the True Source as a whole. Personally, I think it has more to do with Rand's experiences fighting the Dark One outside of the Pattern. In that fight, Rand saw the Pattern for what it was, and by thought and will was able to mold it into completely new realities for a short time. Rand was able to bring some of this insight back with him. Another way to think of it is that the real world is now kind of like the World of Dreams to Rand, and he's able to shape aspects of reality just by thinking it. Some cultures in this fantasy world refer to living as a dream that they will eventually wake from. I do not think this gives Rand total power over shaping the threads of the Pattern, but it does give him the ability to do little things. You're welcome to join in the speculation.

 

Readers also believe that Rand has become the fulfillment of the Sharan prophecies. What little we do know is that the Wyld will kill the Dragon and that he will be able to "weave without weaves." Rand has put the role of the Dragon to rest. I think the "weaving without weaves" part is self explanatory.

 

As an aside, does your username basically translate to "Heart Eater" or "Eating Heart?"

Edited by Agitel

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Channeling the True Source as a whole would be convenient, but I cannot help but think that cannot be. I mean, the True Source is clearly made of two opposite yet complementary forces known as saidar and saidin, male and female. I hardly see how he could have shattered such a principle that ruled the world for so many Ages. 

As for shaping the Pattern as he wills, it is but a heresy, somehow, aha. Rand is not the Creator although as he fought the Dark One he created worlds from what he wished the world to be. Also it is really tempting to believe so, I really do not think it'd be the answer. Furthermore, it would be odd as well to think of the world as a dream, as the Aiel do because then Tel'aran'rhiod would be a dream within a dream ? Nothing would be real, that is to say and thus, nothing would truly matter. 

The Sharan prophecies seem way more accurate indeed, for "weaving without weaves" is exactly what Rand did and although it helps a bit to understand, it does not give a full answer, unfortunately as for HOW exactly one "{weaves} without weaves". And there, your idea of molding the Pattern itself appears plausible yet mad. 

 

Thanks a lot for all these clues, though, Agitel !

Yes, Mangecoeur translates into "Heart Eater" (:

And, patrick5988... Perhaps you should reread AMoL, at least the end. 

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While Rand fought the DO, he was outside the Pattern, and while there he gained a greater understanding of the Pattern.  At the end he was fighting the DO not with the One Power, but with actual threads of the Pattern.  I think Rand came out of the Pit of Doom with a "mastery" of the Pattern, if you will.  He was able to manipulate the Pattern, to a degree that he could at least make small changes in reality around him (i.e. light his pipe).  How much could he manipulate the Pattern?  We'll never know will we?

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I totally get that point of yours, but I however cannot drag myself into accepting it. I mean, Rand, as almighty as he'd be, is not the Creator and thus should not be able to touch the Pattern. When he fought the DO, he was indeed OUTSIDE the Pattern and could then manipulate the threads themselves for he imagine them as such. Nevertheless, once he reintegrated the world and then was a part of the Pattern, I do not think he'd be able to manipulate It anymore. Saying otherwise could lead to the maddest ideas, he could manipulate the livings as well as the dead ones. 

 

But, hey, I guess you are right, we will probably never know. I wish Robert Jordan had left a note, anything that could have helped in any fashion. The Sharan prophecies seem to be the answer, with this "weaving without weaves" thing...! 

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It's a shame because every unanswered question and every unsatisfying conclusion to an arc is going to inevitably lead to the same lament: "If only RJ had lived to write it..."  We can either all of us accept what we got, or go slightly mad wondering about what could have been.  I'm wrestling with it myself right now.

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Some would argue that it is the beauty of the thing, that we are now free to make our spirits wander here and there, let our imagination figure this out the way we want it to, but NO. It is admittedly a pleasure to imagine all sorts of solutions, to ponder theories after theories but at some point, it just gets frustrating. Like, really. I see no other way to go out of this but insanity...! 
This particular point is outraging ! 

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While Rand fought the DO, he was outside the Pattern, and while there he gained a greater understanding of the Pattern. At the end he was fighting the DO not with the One Power, but with actual threads of the Pattern. I think Rand came out of the Pit of Doom with a "mastery" of the Pattern, if you will. He was able to manipulate the Pattern, to a degree that he could at least make small changes in reality around him (i.e. light his pipe). How much could he manipulate the Pattern? We'll never know will we?

This sums it up.

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i think the point is this lews therin lived through him he has been taveren... key word we may not consider. taveren.. the pattern pulls to him. now he is the essence of being taveren... with the dark one truly secured by the dynamic usesage of male female and true power. the essence of needing taveren is gone... so the resinence of such concentrated impact on the pattern... forged him to it.. as he saved it.

 

it is like... robo cop ...

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The Sharan prophecies were not about Rand:

WETLANDER

Was Bao the Wyld part of Sharan prophecy? If so, was Demandred co-opting their Dragon prophecies?

BRANDON SANDERSON

"The Wyld" was part of Sharan prophecy; Demandred thinks he co-opted the Sharan version of the "dragon prophecies" but it was actually about him all along.

As to RJ's death, it's likely he would have remained close mouthed even had he lived - he always wanted some things to be without explanation or resolution.

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Then, what of this "weaving without weaves", because Demandred was obviously weaving the One Power during the Last Battle, with the assistance of a full circle of 72...
But, if Robert Jordan wished to let this remain a mystery then so be it, I guess... We shall be free to multiply theories upon theories..!

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Then, what of this "weaving without weaves", because Demandred was obviously weaving the One Power during the Last Battle, with the assistance of a full circle of 72...

But, if Robert Jordan wished to let this remain a mystery then so be it, I guess... We shall be free to multiply theories upon theories..!

Weaving without weaves as Moghedien demonstrated to prove she was Bao the Wyld, you mean? And a reversed weave of saidin would give the impression of weaving without weaves as well, as no-one could see the weaves (except the weaver).

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Prophecies have however proved themselves to have deeper meanings. The mere fact of concealing one's weaves, should it be with saidin or saidar, does not make one as being able to fulfill such a sentence. 
You're making me doubt, yet... 

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There is a LOT of debate over how Rand lit his pipe. People have asked Brandon Sanderson, the new author, how Rand lit the pipe, but Brandon has said that he does not know because Jordan never explained it. What is clear is that Rand was not channeling either the One Power or the True Power.

 

Of course, readers have speculated on the answer. Some think that Rand no longer channels saidin or saidar, but the True Source as a whole. Personally, I think it has more to do with Rand's experiences fighting the Dark One outside of the Pattern. In that fight, Rand saw the Pattern for what it was, and by thought and will was able to mold it into completely new realities for a short time. Rand was able to bring some of this insight back with him. Another way to think of it is that the real world is now kind of like the World of Dreams to Rand, and he's able to shape aspects of reality just by thinking it. Some cultures in this fantasy world refer to living as a dream that they will eventually wake from. I do not think this gives Rand total power over shaping the threads of the Pattern, but it does give him the ability to do little things. You're welcome to join in the speculation.

 

Readers also believe that Rand has become the fulfillment of the Sharan prophecies. What little we do know is that the Wyld will kill the Dragon and that he will be able to "weave without weaves." Rand has put the role of the Dragon to rest. I think the "weaving without weaves" part is self explanatory.

 

As an aside, does your username basically translate to "Heart Eater" or "Eating Heart?"

 

Excellent explanation.  Your second paragraph, about Rand being able to shape reality to a limited extent due to his experience at weaving the Pattern when confronting the Dark One, sums up how I presumed that Rand was able to light the pipe.  I am very satisfied with this explanation.  So the lighting of the pipe really does not bother me.  There are plenty of things about the ending that do bother me, but I am satisfied with Rand lighting his pipe.

 

As for Rand being the true fulfillment of the Bao the Wyld prophecy, that is very interesting, and I was not aware of that possible connection.  Where did you see the parts of the prophecy that you mentioned here (killing the Dragon and weaving without weaves)?  Were those mentioned in AMoL?  (If so, I missed them.)

Edited by Paul H

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This has probably already been discussed to death on the "Rand's arc" thread and "quality discussion" thread.

 

I for one am glad that some things are getting discussed again, for those (like me) who are slow readers and who took a long time to finish the book.  However, I am sure I am posting some things here and on other threads that have been discussed to death already, and my apologies if I annoy anyone by doing so.

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I talked about it with a friend of mine, and he thought that Rand, since he has known the world with the point of view of the Creator, since he has seen the threads of the Pattern and manipulated them, then he gained over them a certain kind of power, which joins pretty much your idea, Agitel. This, or else he has gone mad because the body of Moridin had been soiled with True Power as the presence of saa witnessed but that seems too much. 

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I think the theory where he can now use the pattern makes sense since it seems (to me at least) that he reshaped the pattern to keep Lan alive.

Edited by Ian Nag

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I think the theory where he can now use the pattern makes sense since it seems (to me at least) that he reshaped the pattern to keep Lan alive.

 

Huh.  I didn't catch that that was what Rand was doing when I read it.  But as I think back, I think you may be right.  And I did have the impression that Lan had received a mortal wound from Demandred, so I was very surprised that he survived.  I need to re-read that section -- it looks like I missed the significance of what Rand did (or may have done) for Lan.

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It never directly says it, but to me it seems logical since he was watching it through the pattern that before Lans thread ended he did something to keep going

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Well, that's what I figured as well ! Rand, when outside the Pattern, saw all his friends being in grave danger and he desperately wanted to help them, but then Egwene - dead already unfortunately and I personally hate Jordan for her death - stopped him doing so. But, yeah he rescued Lan somehow..

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Prophecies have however proved themselves to have deeper meanings. The mere fact of concealing one's weaves, should it be with saidin or saidar, does not make one as being able to fulfill such a sentence. 

You're making me doubt, yet... 

Prophecies have also proved themselves to have very mundane meanings. Alivia helping Rand die, for example. Bear in mind that even without Sanderson's statements, we know from the book that Demandred must have been able to do something to convince the Sharans that he could fulfil the prophecies, and we saw what Moghedien did to convince them she was Bao after his death. We don't know the exact wording of the Sharan prophecies - even less than we do the Karaethon cycle, due to it's Old Tongue origins and many translations - so we can't draw conclusions from that. All we know is that, per the book, Demandred appeared to have fulfilled the Sharan prophecies, and per the author, eh actually did and they were about him all along.

 

 

There is a LOT of debate over how Rand lit his pipe. People have asked Brandon Sanderson, the new author, how Rand lit the pipe, but Brandon has said that he does not know because Jordan never explained it. What is clear is that Rand was not channeling either the One Power or the True Power.

 

Of course, readers have speculated on the answer. Some think that Rand no longer channels saidin or saidar, but the True Source as a whole. Personally, I think it has more to do with Rand's experiences fighting the Dark One outside of the Pattern. In that fight, Rand saw the Pattern for what it was, and by thought and will was able to mold it into completely new realities for a short time. Rand was able to bring some of this insight back with him. Another way to think of it is that the real world is now kind of like the World of Dreams to Rand, and he's able to shape aspects of reality just by thinking it. Some cultures in this fantasy world refer to living as a dream that they will eventually wake from. I do not think this gives Rand total power over shaping the threads of the Pattern, but it does give him the ability to do little things. You're welcome to join in the speculation.

 

Readers also believe that Rand has become the fulfillment of the Sharan prophecies. What little we do know is that the Wyld will kill the Dragon and that he will be able to "weave without weaves." Rand has put the role of the Dragon to rest. I think the "weaving without weaves" part is self explanatory.

 

As an aside, does your username basically translate to "Heart Eater" or "Eating Heart?"

 

Excellent explanation.  Your second paragraph, about Rand being able to shape reality to a limited extent due to his experience at weaving the Pattern when confronting the Dark One, sums up how I presumed that Rand was able to light the pipe.  I am very satisfied with this explanation.  So the lighting of the pipe really does not bother me.  There are plenty of things about the ending that do bother me, but I am satisfied with Rand lighting his pipe.

 

As for Rand being the true fulfillment of the Bao the Wyld prophecy, that is very interesting, and I was not aware of that possible connection.  Where did you see the parts of the prophecy that you mentioned here (killing the Dragon and weaving without weaves)?  Were those mentioned in AMoL?  (If so, I missed them.)

Chapter 41: "I kill without weaves. Only I, your Wyld, could have done so." Chapter 22: "I am Bao, the Wyld. He Who Is Owned Only by the Land. The dragonslayer." There might be a couple of other hints at Sharan prophecy as well, but the parallels between He Who Is Owned Only by the Land and the Dragon is one with the land should be fairly clear, likewise the idea that Rand can do stuff without weaves and the Wyld can kill without weaves, swords, etc.

 

 

I think the theory where he can now use the pattern makes sense since it seems (to me at least) that he reshaped the pattern to keep Lan alive.

 

Huh.  I didn't catch that that was what Rand was doing when I read it.  But as I think back, I think you may be right.  And I did have the impression that Lan had received a mortal wound from Demandred, so I was very surprised that he survived.  I need to re-read that section -- it looks like I missed the significance of what Rand did (or may have done) for Lan.

There's nothing to suggest that Rand did anything. In fact, him doing so surely undermines the point of him having to let go. Undermines him saying that it was never about himself. The matically, the idea that Rand saved Lan is all wrong, it just doesn't fit. Lan was sorely wounded but he survived, and did so on his own, without divine intervention, because he is a man who will never give up, never surrender, not as long as he draws breath.

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