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Barid Bel Medar
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Here's something that just occurred to me

 

Apparently, once someone goes over to the dark one their soul is damned for enternity. However, we know that both Rand's soul and Moridin's soul have been spun out many times. We know that Moridin as Ishmael started out as a good guy - non-damned. We know that Rand's soul has gone over to the DO before. So.... how are these two, and many others, not spun out as evil doers already linked to the DO in every age?

Well, we've seen that Verin and Ingtar have redeemed themselves, but granted, assuming that a soul hasn't redeemed itself, I'm wondering if the DO has a permanent hold or not. 

 

I was under the impression that Ingtar and Verin only redeemed themselves in deeds, they did not break the DO's hold on them. That's what made Verin so courageous and honorable; she did the unthinkable to fight the DO.

I'm not completely certain either, but after reading elsewhere on this forum, it seems that they indeed broke the hold the DO had on them. Also recall Ingtar's words that no one under the shadow is so far gone that they can't redeem themselves, as well as Egwene's farewell to Verin that she has returned to the Light.

Edited by dir ehlef
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Here's something that just occurred to me

 

Apparently, once someone goes over to the dark one their soul is damned for enternity. However, we know that both Rand's soul and Moridin's soul have been spun out many times. We know that Moridin as Ishmael started out as a good guy - non-damned. We know that Rand's soul has gone over to the DO before. So.... how are these two, and many others, not spun out as evil doers already linked to the DO in every age?

Well, we've seen that Verin and Ingtar have redeemed themselves, but granted, assuming that a soul hasn't redeemed itself, I'm wondering if the DO has a permanent hold or not. 

 

I was under the impression that Ingtar and Verin only redeemed themselves in deeds, they did not break the DO's hold on them. That's what made Verin so courageous and honorable; she did the unthinkable to fight the DO.

I'm not completely certain either, but after reading elsewhere on this forum, it seems that they indeed broke the hold the DO had on them. Also recall Ingtar's words that no one under the shadow is so far gone that they can't redeem themselves, as well as Egwene's farewell to Verin that she has returned to the Light.

 

AHHH!!! Thank you,dir ehlef. I totally forgot about that. :mat:

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So, not sure if this was asked anywhere, but I know most of us were searching really hard for hints of when Demandred's alias was mentioned in earlier books as hinted by BS.. now that we finally know who his alias was (Bao the Wyld), where was he mentioned in the previous books? I know it was probably just in passing, but was it really mentioned or was this information incorrect?

Demandred was mentioned in a private interview with the DO at SG in LOC. 

 

He was told to be use balefire in the DO's service. It says there that he was taking a gamble that could have huge chances for success. In turn, the DO hinted that he might be made Nae'blis.

 

At the end of that book Demandred has another appearance where it seems he has succeeded at the task given to him.

 

Only Moridin knew what Demandred was up to as was clear from other POVs of the other forsaken. The name Bao and Wyld don't appear in any of the earlier books.

This is well-known, but Brandon Sanderson mentioned numerous times that Demandred's other character was mentioned in the other books and we were all trying very hard to find it. Now that we finally know who his alternate ego was, I'm surprised no one went to find the reference point. It was one of the more popular theory discussions.

 

The RJ/BS quotes about Demandred were a bit red herring and a bit Aes Sedai answer.  I need to look at the quotes again, but I thought the where was "you can figure it out" type of answer, but the who was still anyone's guess.  As to seeing the alter-ego on screen, I need to flip back to the Graendal scenes when she did stuff in Shara.  I am wondering if Demandred had a cameo there, but without the direct link that it was him.

Graendal showed Sammael the 2 "rulers" of Shara as her pets. But as far as I can recall, she is never actually shown in Shara itself. 

 

It was mentioned that there was fighting going on in Shara, but not who the factions were.

Edited by dir ehlef
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So, not sure if this was asked anywhere, but I know most of us were searching really hard for hints of when Demandred's alias was mentioned in earlier books as hinted by BS.. now that we finally know who his alias was (Bao the Wyld), where was he mentioned in the previous books? I know it was probably just in passing, but was it really mentioned or was this information incorrect?

Demandred was mentioned in a private interview with the DO at SG in LOC.

He was told to be use balefire in the DO's service. It says there that he was taking a gamble that could have huge chances for success. In turn, the DO hinted that he might be made Nae'blis

At the end of that book Demandred has another appearance where it seems he has succeeded at the task given to him.

 

Only Moridin knew what Demandred was up to as was clear from other POVs of the other forsaken. The name Bao and Wyld don't appear in any of the earlier books.

This is well-known, but Brandon Sanderson mentioned numerous times that Demandred's other character was mentioned in the other books and we were all trying very hard to find it. Now that we finally know who his alternate ego was, I'm surprised no one went to find the reference point. It was one of the more popular theory discussions.
The RJ/BS quotes about Demandred were a bit red herring and a bit Aes Sedai answer.  I need to look at the quotes again, but I thought the where was "you can figure it out" type of answer, but the who was still anyone's guess. As to seeing the alter-ego on screen, I need to flip back to the Graendal scenes when she did stuff in Shara. I am wondering if Demandred had a cameo there, but without the direct link that it was him.
Graendal showed Sammael the 2 "rulers" of Shara as her pets. But as far as I can recall, she is never actually shown in Shara itself.

It was mentioned that there was fighting going on in Shara, but not who the factions were.

Graendal stole the rulers breaking the "seven year" cycle which through the country into chaos. There were a couple vague mentions of fighting but most attributed it to her actions. Nothing to link Demandred whatsoever. Edited by Suttree
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My simple question is: How come the Seanchan possess the knowledge to create ter'angreal (a'dam, bloodknife rings, crystal throne, domination band), which is considered to be lost to Aes Sedai since the Breaking?Ok, the a'dam was created by Deain Sedai. She could also have shown other channellers how to create copies of it I guess. How about the other items, though? Any ideas? (Note that according to Demandred in AMoL, the weave created by the bloodknife rings - shroud of darkness or something of the sort - dates back to the AOL).

Also, how is Deain Sedai able to create ter'angreal more that 2000 years after the Breaking?

The Aes Sedai in Seanchan were never part of the tower and thus many of the self imposed limitations of the tower like not studying certain things didn't apply to them. Also, being on another continent, the breaking may have affected them differently, [ IE their knowledge centers and/or schools teachers may have survived ]

 

It is likely that knowledge of making Ter'angreals was retained by the Seanchan AS and later the damane.

Edited by dir ehlef
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What happens to the remnant of the Shiado? It's too bad they couldn't be included in the Dragon's Peace. There should be some way for them to win redemption.

Well, consider :

 

They had 160,000 to start with.

 

They first were seriously decreased by the battle at Cairhien. 

 

Then were hit hard by Taim and about 100 ashaman at Dumai's wells putting them through a meat grinder [ aside from the Tower Aes Sedai that fought them too ]

 

Then again they were dumped all over By Sammael and Graendal resulting in many cases in further losses [ like that of the Moshaine Shaido ( The Seanchan claimed to have also fought and beaten them a few times before Malden )]

 

By the time they arrived at Malden, only 14 of 83 septs were left, with perhaps a couple more arriving soon afterward. (They also had 400-500 wise ones.) Assuming each sept had about the same amount of members, that leaves them with about 27000 real Shaido. By then, only about 100,000 Shaido [ including brotherless ] were left. [ KOD p 394 ] 

 

Then Perrin and the Seanchan alliance killed or captured most of the surviving wise ones [ After the battle, Tylee says that over 200 wise ones were collared aside from those killed ] and presumably an equal percentage of their fighters.

 

At this point, relatively few of them must be left . I'd guess less than 10 percent. [ Only about 20 wise ones escaped the effects of the forkroot during the battle. Therava takes these back to the waste. ]

Edited by dir ehlef
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It is likely that knowledge of making Ter'angreals was retained by the Seanchan AS and later the damane.

Per RJ all they can do now is copy the adam. They have no knowledge of how to make other items.

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It is likely that knowledge of making Ter'angreals was retained by the Seanchan AS and later the damane.

Per RJ all they can do now is copy the adam. They have no knowledge of how to make other items.

Cool, thanks for that info, do you have a link?

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I just realized something - we speak about the DO having control over the souls of his followers.

 

In Randland/WoT - theres no organized religion - correct?

 

What kind of afterlife do the "regular" folk face?  That seems to be missing here.  

 

 

Heros get spun out of the horn, but what about Almen Bunt or Cenn Buie?  What happens to them when they pass?

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I just realized something - we speak about the DO having control over the souls of his followers.

 

In Randland/WoT - theres no organized religion - correct?

 

What kind of afterlife do the "regular" folk face?  That seems to be missing here.  

 

 

Heros get spun out of the horn, but what about Almen Bunt or Cenn Buie?  What happens to them when they pass?

Each soul is a thread in the pattern, regular souls are sheltered by the Creator and reborn. Baddies are under control of the DO when It is free. When the DO is sealed away, it is less clear. I'd love to see someone bring clear info on this point.

Edited by dir ehlef
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I just realized something - we speak about the DO having control over the souls of his followers.

 

In Randland/WoT - theres no organized religion - correct?

 

What kind of afterlife do the "regular" folk face?  That seems to be missing here.  

 

 

Heros get spun out of the horn, but what about Almen Bunt or Cenn Buie?  What happens to them when they pass?

Cenn Buie ceases to exist, only minor details of himself are part of his soul and those are preserved to be spun out as a new person. Heroes are different. Their souls preserve much more self and that is probably why the wheel uses tel'aran'riod as a storage facility. Regular souls might be there too, they just don't have enough form to them to manifest in any real way.
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Who gentled Oweyn?  Was it Moraine?

 

In the PoD  it says that Toveine and Elaida were involved in something even the tower considered too much [ Toveine thinks it was still necessary.] While Toveine was birched and exiled for 20 years, Elaida got away scot free. 

 

In the prologue to ACoS, Elaida in discussing how many men were found channeling in 25 years, Alviarin says 24, Elaida says only 16 were official, but admits to herself that her own knowledge of that time was more personal.

 

In KoD about Tsutama "She had possessed a very good reputation as a Sitter, at least before her involvement in the disgusting events that led to her downfall"

 

From this info, I'd gather that Toveine and Tsutuma were sitters who ordered a secret campaign against men found channelling and Elaida was likely the enforcer who did the actual deeds.

Edited by dir ehlef
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Owyn was gentles during what was known as the "vileness". It was tied in with the BAs killing spree of lucky men once word leaked on the DR. Reds were stilling men without trial on the spot and announcing who they were before leaving. Galina had a large role in directing the events.

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Owyn was gentles during what was known as the "vileness". It was tied in with the BAs killing spree of lucky men once word leaked on the DR. Reds were stilling men without trial on the spot and announcing who they were before leaving. Galina had a large role in directing the events.

In LoC , in the prologue, Galina is shown to have only been head of the red for 18 years, this would be after the vileness.

 

But after checking here http://www.wotdb.com/characters/view/145-galina-casban- it seems Galina was indeed involved, though not the top.

Edited by dir ehlef
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Owyn was gentles during what was known as the "vileness". It was tied in with the BAs killing spree of lucky men once word leaked on the DR. Reds were stilling men without trial on the spot and announcing who they were before leaving. Galina had a large role in directing the events.

In LoC , in the prologue, Galina is shown to have only been head of the red for 18 years, this would be after the vileness.

 

But after checking here http://www.wotdb.com/characters/view/145-galina-casban- it seems Galina was indeed involved, though not the top.

IIRC Jarna and Duhara where the BA members behind it all. Galina most likely was the go between.

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Owyn was gentles during what was known as the "vileness". It was tied in with the BAs killing spree of lucky men once word leaked on the DR. Reds were stilling men without trial on the spot and announcing who they were before leaving. Galina had a large role in directing the events.

In LoC , in the prologue, Galina is shown to have only been head of the red for 18 years, this would be after the vileness.

 

But after checking here http://www.wotdb.com/characters/view/145-galina-casban- it seems Galina was indeed involved, though not the top.

IIRC Jarna and Duhara where the BA members behind it all. Galina most likely was the go between.

Jarna and Duhara most likely got the Reds involved, though my understanding is that the Red sitters did the ordering and Elaida and others [ possibly Galina too ] carried out the actual dirty work.

Edited by dir ehlef
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Owyn was gentles during what was known as the "vileness". It was tied in with the BAs killing spree of lucky men once word leaked on the DR. Reds were stilling men without trial on the spot and announcing who they were before leaving. Galina had a large role in directing the events.

In LoC , in the prologue, Galina is shown to have only been head of the red for 18 years, this would be after the vileness.

 

But after checking here http://www.wotdb.com/characters/view/145-galina-casban- it seems Galina was indeed involved, though not the top.

IIRC Jarna and Duhara where the BA members behind it all. Galina most likely was the go between.
Jarna and Duhara most likely got the Reds involved, though my understanding is that the Red sitters did the ordering and Elaida and others carried out the actual dirty work.
Well there where two things going on during that time. The BA went on a killing spree of lucky men after torturing the Amyrlin to find out that the Dragon had been reborn. Duhara was the keeper so she was well positioned to find out info from the eyes and ears. They then manipulated the Reds into carrying out the stillings in a way that flouted WT law. When Ishy found out he had Jarna killed in that ter'angreal. Edited by Suttree
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Owyn was gentles during what was known as the "vileness". It was tied in with the BAs killing spree of lucky men once word leaked on the DR. Reds were stilling men without trial on the spot and announcing who they were before leaving. Galina had a large role in directing the events.

In LoC , in the prologue, Galina is shown to have only been head of the red for 18 years, this would be after the vileness.

 

But after checking here http://www.wotdb.com/characters/view/145-galina-casban- it seems Galina was indeed involved, though not the top.

IIRC Jarna and Duhara where the BA members behind it all. Galina most likely was the go between.
Jarna and Duhara most likely got the Reds involved, though my understanding is that the Red sitters did the ordering and Elaida and others carried out the actual dirty work.
Well there where two things going on during that time. The BA went on a killing spree of lucky men after torturing the Amyrlin to find out that the Dragon had been reborn. Duhara was the keeper so she was well positioned to find out info from the eyes and ears. They then manipulated the Reds into carrying out the stillings in a way that flouted WT law. When Ishy found out he had Jarna killed in that ter'angreal.

Agreed, except Jarna was keeper not Duhara.

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Considering Hinderstap's incredible power, why did the light forces not send the dying there? [ those too far gone to heal ] Instead of leaving them to die on the battlefield and only concentrate on the less wounded, who arguably could not return to battle, the dying could have been recycled throughout the battles each morning.

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Owyn was gentles during what was known as the "vileness". It was tied in with the BAs killing spree of lucky men once word leaked on the DR. Reds were stilling men without trial on the spot and announcing who they were before leaving. Galina had a large role in directing the events.

In LoC , in the prologue, Galina is shown to have only been head of the red for 18 years, this would be after the vileness.

 

But after checking here http://www.wotdb.com/characters/view/145-galina-casban- it seems Galina was indeed involved, though not the top.

IIRC Jarna and Duhara where the BA members behind it all. Galina most likely was the go between.
Jarna and Duhara most likely got the Reds involved, though my understanding is that the Red sitters did the ordering and Elaida and others carried out the actual dirty work.
Well there where two things going on during that time. The BA went on a killing spree of lucky men after torturing the Amyrlin to find out that the Dragon had been reborn. Duhara was the keeper so she was well positioned to find out info from the eyes and ears. They then manipulated the Reds into carrying out the stillings in a way that flouted WT law. When Ishy found out he had Jarna killed in that ter'angreal.
Agreed, except Jarna was keeper not Duhara.

Duhara was keeper.

Encyclopedia WoT

After being raised to the Amyrlin Seat, Sierin Vayu makes a slight break with custom appointing Duhara as her Keeper of the Chronicles and Amira as her Mistress of Novices. Both are Red Ajah. (NS,Ch14)

Jarna was head of the BA before Alviarin.

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Owyn was gentles during what was known as the "vileness". It was tied in with the BAs killing spree of lucky men once word leaked on the DR. Reds were stilling men without trial on the spot and announcing who they were before leaving. Galina had a large role in directing the events.

In LoC , in the prologue, Galina is shown to have only been head of the red for 18 years, this would be after the vileness.

 

But after checking here http://www.wotdb.com/characters/view/145-galina-casban- it seems Galina was indeed involved, though not the top.

IIRC Jarna and Duhara where the BA members behind it all. Galina most likely was the go between.
Jarna and Duhara most likely got the Reds involved, though my understanding is that the Red sitters did the ordering and Elaida and others carried out the actual dirty work.
Well there where two things going on during that time. The BA went on a killing spree of lucky men after torturing the Amyrlin to find out that the Dragon had been reborn. Duhara was the keeper so she was well positioned to find out info from the eyes and ears. They then manipulated the Reds into carrying out the stillings in a way that flouted WT law. When Ishy found out he had Jarna killed in that ter'angreal.
Agreed, except Jarna was keeper not Duhara.

Duhara was keeper.

Encyclopedia WoT

>>>After being raised to the Amyrlin Seat, Sierin Vayu makes a slight break with custom appointing Duhara as her Keeper of the Chronicles and Amira as her Mistress of Novices. Both are Red Ajah. (NS,Ch14)

Jarna was head of the BA before Alviarin.

 

My mistake. My source was http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/COT/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.11_vileness.html where it states Jarna was keeper. FWIW, your knowledge of facts is impressive. 

Edited by dir ehlef
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Here's something that just occurred to me

 

Apparently, once someone goes over to the dark one their soul is damned for enternity. However, we know that both Rand's soul and Moridin's soul have been spun out many times. We know that Moridin as Ishmael started out as a good guy - non-damned. We know that Rand's soul has gone over to the DO before. So.... how are these two, and many others, not spun out as evil doers already linked to the DO in every age?

Well, we've seen that Verin and Ingtar have redeemed themselves, but granted, assuming that a soul hasn't redeemed itself, I'm wondering if the DO has a permanent hold or not. 

 

I was under the impression that Ingtar and Verin only redeemed themselves in deeds, they did not break the DO's hold on them. That's what made Verin so courageous and honorable; she did the unthinkable to fight the DO.

Perhaps being tied to the wheel and being spun out over and over again takes a sort of 'precedence' over the dark one's damnation

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Considering Hinderstap's incredible power, why did the light forces not send the dying there? [ those too far gone to heal ] Instead of leaving them to die on the battlefield and only concentrate on the less wounded, who arguably could not return to battle, the dying could have been recycled throughout the battles each morning.

that would be too easy to just zap Gawyn there after his fight with Demandred.  I would think its once of those plot things that are not meant for us regular people to ask about. 

 

KInda like why doesn't anyone recognize Clark Kent is just Superman with glasses.

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Owyn was gentles during what was known as the "vileness". It was tied in with the BAs killing spree of lucky men once word leaked on the DR. Reds were stilling men without trial on the spot and announcing who they were before leaving. Galina had a large role in directing the events.

In LoC , in the prologue, Galina is shown to have only been head of the red for 18 years, this would be after the vileness.

 

But after checking here http://www.wotdb.com/characters/view/145-galina-casban- it seems Galina was indeed involved, though not the top.

 

 

IIRC Jarna and Duhara where the BA members behind it all. Galina most likely was the go between.

 

 

Jarna and Duhara most likely got the Reds involved, though my understanding is that the Red sitters did the ordering and Elaida and others carried out the actual dirty work.

 

 

Well there where two things going on during that time. The BA went on a killing spree of lucky men after torturing the Amyrlin to find out that the Dragon had been reborn. Duhara was the keeper so she was well positioned to find out info from the eyes and ears. They then manipulated the Reds into carrying out the stillings in a way that flouted WT law. When Ishy found out he had Jarna killed in that ter'angreal.

 

 

Agreed, except Jarna was keeper not Duhara.

 

 

Duhara was keeper.

Encyclopedia WoT

>>>After being raised to the Amyrlin Seat, Sierin Vayu makes a slight break with custom appointing Duhara as her Keeper of the Chronicles and Amira as her Mistress of Novices. Both are Red Ajah. (NS,Ch14)

Jarna was head of the BA before Alviarin.

 

 

My mistake. My source was http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/COT/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.11_vileness.html where it states Jarna was keeper. FWIW, your knowledge of facts is impressive.

 

 

Some corrections, only the killing of lucky men was actually sanctioned by Jarna, a mistake Ishy killed her for.

The Black Ajah did NOT manipulate the Red's into stilling men illegally, they did that on their own.

And while the Red's were manipulated into killing the Amyrlin Seat, Sierin Vayu, by a member of the Black Ajah (Chesmal Emry) by making them believe Sierin was on to their illegal stillings. This was NOT sanctioned by Jarna/the Black Ajah. Chesmal did this on her own because she believed Sierin was on to her for the death of Meilyn Arganya. She had the Red's take care of it for her.

Edited by Finnssss
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