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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

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 "If there was no further plan for Fain he could have just shown up as Fain and been killed"

 

No, because we are told since nearly the beginning that he is undergoing "some kind of" transformation, and we see part of it early in the books. If he had shown as regular Fain it would have been inconsistant with where his storyline was headed.

 

And I still think it is meaningless to argue because no matter what argument you wield, someone else will go another way about it and there is simply no way of confirming anything.

 

I see why you think RJ had more plans for him. Fain is actually a very intersting main protagonist or antagonist depending on the kind of book you would write about him. There is so much depth to him. But this is tWoT, not "Fain 'n' fellas". We know he wants to kill Rand. He tries to chase him, he tries to lure him, and in the end, when nothing works, he said himself that he is going where he knows he will be. And when he is shown to us walking through the Blight towards SG he has killed a freaking Worm like nothing (let me tell you one of those almost kills Demandred) so we already know something is going on with him.

Not much sense for him to appear on any battlefield or meeting or whatever. He just wants to go to SG and kill Rand. He does so by walking (pretty slow eh), and we have to take into consideration the time warping. So, where and when do you want him to be? It just wouldn't make any sense.

Maybe in RJ's mind he had a more epic last scene? Well, maybe, but I don't think he would do anything remotely relevant at that point because it just wouldn't make sense.

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 "If there was no further plan for Fain he could have just shown up as Fain and been killed"

 

No, because we are told since nearly the beginning that he is undergoing "some kind of" transformation, and we see part of it early in the books. If he had shown as regular Fain it would have been inconsistant with where his storyline was headed.

 

And I still think it is meaningless to argue because no matter what argument you wield, someone else will go another way about it and there is simply no way of confirming anything.

 

I see why you think RJ had more plans for him. Fain is actually a very intersting main protagonist or antagonist depending on the kind of book you would write about him. There is so much depth to him. But this is tWoT, not "Fain 'n' fellas". We know he wants to kill Rand. He tries to chase him, he tries to lure him, and in the end, when nothing works, he said himself that he is going where he knows he will be. And when he is shown to us walking through the Blight towards SG he has killed a freaking Worm like nothing (let me tell you one of those almost kills Demandred) so we already know something is going on with him.

Not much sense for him to appear on any battlefield or meeting or whatever. He just wants to go to SG and kill Rand. He does so by walking (pretty slow eh), and we have to take into consideration the time warping. So, where and when do you want him to be? It just wouldn't make any sense.

Maybe in RJ's mind he had a more epic last scene? Well, maybe, but I don't think he would do anything remotely relevant at that point because it just wouldn't make sense.

Fain undergoing "some kind" of transformation does not preclude him showing up at the Last Battle as Fain. It just makes him a Fain who is some way through some kind of transformation. Abruptly changing things to the extent that Fain actually dies off-screen between books, to be replaced by Shaisam - who is then killed off almost immediately - is guaranteed to leave people less satisfied than just having an increasingly unstable Fain show up at SG, do his thing, and be killed.

 

Saying it's futile to argue because nothing can be proved either way is silly. Just because something cannot be proved beyond all doubt doesn't mean that possibilities cannot be discussed, and some can be shown as more likely than others. For example, an author makes extensive plans for future plot and character arcs and events in his books; is it more likely that he had plans for a given character that went unrealised, or more likely that he had no further plans, and kept the character alive on a whim after that character had completed everything he was supposed to do? In fact, if we took your advice we'd never debate anything here, because so much of what we discuss is actually unprovable. Discussing things serves a useful purpose even if we cannot prove our arguments conclusively - aside from the enjoyment we get from it, there's also the fact that by discussing the various possibilities, weighing up the evidence, we can create better theories and refine our understanding of the series. So no, it is not meaningless to argue.

 

All of Fain's appearances prior to the end had relevance to the plot. ToM sets up Fain's appearance in AMoL. Then AMoL has Shaisam show up, indicating fairly significant developments off-screen that are promptly rendered irrelevant by his immediate death. Prior to the release of the last book there were theories regarding Fain and his role in the last book - theories that went beyond just "he shows up and dies, having accomplished nothing". Him killing Shaidar Haran was a fairly common one. Him taking actions that don't take up much page space but have fairly significant repercussions would be in keeping with how he is generally used. He wants to kill Rand. While it's virtually a given that he will fail at this, he can still have a significant impact. Saying it wouldn't make much sense for him to do anything remotely relevant is the very opposite of true - if he was not going to do anything relevant, he should not be there. He should have been killed off in WH. Granted, that's not something BS can change, but it therefore falls on him to find something for Fain to do, if nothing was specified in the notes. As for where and when, the location is fine, and the timeline is pretty screwed by the last books so you can have him show up any time. He could be there before Rand arrives, or not arrive until Rand is stumbling out of the cave. It doesn't matter. What matters is function - prior to the last book he always had one when he appeared, in his last appearance he is without one. That's not in keeping with how he's been used before. So give him something to do.

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Well by your way of thinking 80% of the characters in the last book should just have been killed previously. Characteres like Hurin, who fulfills his role and then is "forgotten" save for three small scenes, two of them irrelevant. Why didn't he kill him earlier instead of just giving us a small glimpse in the last book? There are tons of characters like Hurin or even less important having a brief moment of attention on aMoL.

 

Just because RJ is a planner doesn't mean everything has to have ulterior motive.

 

Those characters still appear to make us connect deeper with the war. Minor characters from all over the saga are showed fighting in the Las Battle for us to think "man, this huge battle, everyone is here, even that one farmer from the first book, this is it, this is the Tarmon'Gaidon".

And Fain appears because he is an important character that didn't make sense to have killed earlier just "because he has done what he had to for the plot". I don't really think there's more to it than that.

 

Of course your opinion is 100% valid but your arguments seem weak to me.

 

As for the "value of argument" thingy, I have to say you're right. I didn't mean it was futile, just that it was trivial in this case. And I meant that once all parts have exposed their arguments and agree to disagree, more argument is meaningless when nothing can be proved. Not that I don't enjoy this. And not that someone else couldn't join and add arguments for and against you or me, renovating the discussion.

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RJ wasn't also known for giving people gran sendoffs, Look at Samm Be'lal, Asmo, or Liandrin for example.  Yes hiss death seemed like a quick way to close the book on him but I personally don't see RJ having anything grand or epic planned for him.

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Also, killing off characters that have fulfilled their roles is poor writting actually. It just means you can't keep track of them so when they have done what you wanted you kill them. That may happen sometimes because of plot but other times those characters will just continue their lives without needing screen time to assert their existance.

 

And when you write like RJ, having some points where the plot must be headed but leaving the "how to get there" up to "what would the characters do based on their personalities and situation", it is only natural that Fain would go after Rand and not just be forgotten (and I insist killing him just because is absurd), as well as it is only natural for those minor characters to go fight at the Last Battle (or loot corpses like our mercenary friends).

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@naggash,

a personal observation.

hurin's scene in a memory of light is incredibly moving.

his ability to smell violence made him ill several times in the course of the last battle

and still he kept fighting.

during a lull in the action,hurin's thoughts were about rand:"lord rand would preserve

them,if they could give him enough time."

for the most part,the last battle left me unmoved,i.e. bad planning,characters behaving

incredibly stupid etc(the list is endless),so i was glad to read a scene that had soul in

it for a change.

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about Fain dying at the Cleansing, not sure if he knew that Rand would do it; or where if he did know.  and not sure if Fain would have arrived early enough if he knew where.

 

(in response to some post within several pages ago.)

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Well by your way of thinking 80% of the characters in the last book should just have been killed previously. Characteres like Hurin, who fulfills his role and then is "forgotten" save for three small scenes, two of them irrelevant. Why didn't he kill him earlier instead of just giving us a small glimpse in the last book? There are tons of characters like Hurin or even less important having a brief moment of attention on aMoL.

 

Just because RJ is a planner doesn't mean everything has to have ulterior motive.

 

Those characters still appear to make us connect deeper with the war. Minor characters from all over the saga are showed fighting in the Las Battle for us to think "man, this huge battle, everyone is here, even that one farmer from the first book, this is it, this is the Tarmon'Gaidon".

And Fain appears because he is an important character that didn't make sense to have killed earlier just "because he has done what he had to for the plot". I don't really think there's more to it than that.

 

Of course your opinion is 100% valid but your arguments seem weak to me.

 

As for the "value of argument" thingy, I have to say you're right. I didn't mean it was futile, just that it was trivial in this case. And I meant that once all parts have exposed their arguments and agree to disagree, more argument is meaningless when nothing can be proved. Not that I don't enjoy this. And not that someone else couldn't join and add arguments for and against you or me, renovating the discussion.

Why did it not make sense to kill off Fain earlier? He was in a sword fight with Rand in WH. Face to face with his nemesis, in a fight that could easily have been to the death. He survives, flees, and doesn't appear again until ToM, four books later, and then only a single scene in the prologue. What was the point in saving his life? People can point out that RJ didn't always give his villains epic deaths, and I don't disagree - but why did he escape a suitably unepic death to do absolutely nothing more than fill up a few more pages? Compare with Sammael - he doesn't escape Shadar Logoth only to show up in KoD and be killed without doing anything more. He just dies in ACoS. You might think my arguments are weak, but yours seem to be non-existent on this point. My point is that he survives a situation where he could easily have been killed off, and then comes back but does't do anything - this despite some fairly dramatic changes, and a reappearance which seems to be setting him up for something. The survival, reappearance, changes and set up all indicate he has a role to fulfill, but then he does nothing. I'm not just saying that he should be killed off because he has nothing to do, I'm saying if he has nothing to do, why artificially prolong his life and then set him up to do something, make sweeping changes to his character, and then kill him off?

 

It is not true that according to my way of thinking 80% of the characters would be dead. According to my way of thinking those characters are often presented in ways that are very different to how Fain is presented, so treating it is not reasonable to conclude that they therefore should be treated in the same way. You even point out the purpose of keeping those characters alive - they therefore serve a purpose, which makes them different to Fain, who does not serve a purpose but is kept around anyway and set up to look like he has a purpose. Fain is different, glaringly so.

 

Also, killing off characters that have fulfilled their roles is poor writting actually. It just means you can't keep track of them so when they have done what you wanted you kill them. That may happen sometimes because of plot but other times those characters will just continue their lives without needing screen time to assert their existance.

You seem to be extrapolating rather wildly from my point. I did not suggest that all characters who have fulfilled their role should be immediately killed off.

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from what I skimmed, the book does not tell who.

I would guess Rand's knowledge of it was through Perrin's spies.  Either they telling Rand directly or they telling Rand through either Perrin or Faile.

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Well Rand should have a good idea if she was pregnant he was probably the dad.  After all being linked to her he would of had an idea if she gotten frisky with anyone else.  My guess is Perrin at least would of also suspected who the dad was.  But also could of been Avi or even Min finally telling him.    Rand also might o used a little eavesdropping with the power.  But seeing how good Perrin's spy was at getting information I wouldn't discount him either.

 

The people who knew for sure who the dad was (I might forget some)

Elayne

Min

Avi

Brigette

Gawyn

Egwene (don't remember when she found out elayne was pregnant but she would of known who the dad was)  Thought I remember something about Elayne not being able to swear on the oath rod because of her being pregnant.

 

Don't remember if her mom guessed the dad

Perrin would of suspected who the dad was

Not sure when Nyn found out Elayne was pregnant.

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@sabio,

compiling a list of all the people who knew that rand was the father of elayne's children

doesn't solve much. lol.

in your post you wrote:"rand should have a good idea if she was pregnant...",you're completely

off base here,rand had no idea that elayne was pregnant,the news took him totally by surprise,

"pregnant with his children.light ! he only just learned of it".rand also wondered why elayne didn't 

tell him herself:"why hadn't she been the one to tell him?".(we can exclude elayne from your list).

now,let's tackle the rest of your list:

 

1.aviendha knew but never said anything to rand,when she arrived at the field of merrilor,rand already

knew about elayne's pregnancy.

 

2.birgitte,egwene,gawyn,mat,thom and morgase were all in the same situation,i.e. they all knew who 

the father was,but didn't have the opportunity to tell him.

 

3.perrin and faile didn't know who the father was,they could speculate of course,but they didn't have

any concrete knowledge.

 

4.before her temporarily return to the white tower,nynaeve did have a long and wonderful conversation 

with rand,she already knew then that elayne was pregnant but didn't say anything  him.

 

the last name on the list is min,well,she had the knowledge,she had the opportunity,she was rand's lover

and best friend,so,if she was the one who told him about the pregnancy,why did she wait so long?

she had plenty of opportunities(between dragonmount and the field of merrilor),so why tell him on the

eve of such a monumental meeting?

Edited by jack of shadows

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No I meant at finding out she was pregnant he would of assumed he was the dad, not that he some how knew beforehand or should of guessed earlier she was.  So the he would of known had she gotten frisky with anyone else part.  It should of been pretty clear at hearing she was with child to know it was his.  Min wouldn't tell Rand as she knew it would only make him worry, if she did tell him it could of simply of been there was no point in keeping him in the dark anymore as he would soon fins out she was with child.  I still suspect it was Perrin's spy who probably reported the queen was pregnant.  I think she was showing by then so a spy easily could of said the queen of Andor as with child.

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about Rand wondering why Elayne did not tell him; the next paragraphs answer.

 

 

The answer was simple. Elayne could feel Rand's emotions as he felt hers. She would have been able to feel how he  had been, recently. Before Dragonmount. Back when...

Well, she wouldn't have wanted to confront him with a pregnancy when he'd been in such a state. Beyond that, he hadn't exactly made himself easy to find.

 

 

unrelated questions::

from what I skimmed, a portion of Windfinders used the Bowl of the Winds at Shayol Ghul.  where were the rest of the Sea Folk during Tarmon Gaidon?

 

is the second method successful against cuendillar shown?  the Seals to me do not count since they were already weakened.

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The Windfinders were all taking turns to operate de BW, at least all the strong ones. The others aren't mentioned but I suppose they would be helpping in the battlefields like some Aes Sedai loners who fought "on their own" (and not under WT command) where they were more needed.

 

Also, on Rand and Elayne's pregnancy, I think Ohkam's Razor will do quite a nice job here. He heard of her pregnancy from anyone on Perrin's 'team' (because A LOT of people in that camp knew) and assumed he was the dad. From who did he hear it specifically? Well, I don't know, could be almost anyone in that camp, but I guess it came up in his first reunion with Perrin following his arrival, whether it be Perrin who mentioned it or Faile or some other person from the "command core" who assisted that meeting, not even necessarily brought up on purpose but maybe on idle chat.

Edited by Naggash

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I think some figured out that the channeler numbers don't add up. That 2,000 or so light siders or something evaporated so that could be what happened because independent WFs were just as likely to fight the Seanchan as the shadow.

The True Power can destroy cuendilliar and I don't know if anything else can.

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Apologies if this has been asked before, but what were the three questions Rand asks the Snakes/Foxes? How to win the last battle and survive, and what were the other two? Been a while since I've done a read-through and I suddenly found myself thinking this at work!

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the Encyclopaedia site lists all revealed questions & answers.  the link to the page is in their prophecy section.

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a few days ago i decided to read rand's dragonmount epiphany back-to-back

with perrin's point of view of the same event(towers of midnight chapter 30) and

noticed something odd about rand's appearance,perrin saw rand wearing a coat 

of black and red,fine and ornamented,with a sword at his waist,but rand traded his

black coat for an old brown cloak  in ebou dar and didn't have a sword only the access key.

perrin saw a reflection of the real world,rand wasn't in  the dreamworld,i.e. he wasn't subject

to the usual dreamworld manipulations of reality,so is it a continuity error?

Edited by jack of shadows

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