Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

Recommended Posts

I can't recall what happened to the Seanchan after the Last Battle. Wasn't it agreed they could keep Altara and Tarabon (I think those were the countries where they had the most hold), but they couldn't leave those lands to go after Aes Sedai? If someone can point to the reference where an agreement was made, I'd be most grateful, because I want to read up on the details.

Edited by Jagen Sedai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@jagen sedai,

a peace agreement was struck between the dragon reborn and the seanchan empress

on two issues,i.e.borders and damane(a memory of light,chapter 17,"older,more weathered")

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though I wonder if is was a simple overlook on BS or RJ part that male channelers were never put in the agreement.  If they have mass produce the male' adam they can go about collaring males now.

 

Tuon also made an agreement with Egwene.  Chapter 26 Considerations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@sabio,

"tuon also made an agreement with egwene".

did she?

it was basically nothing more than a catfight between a rigid and incredibly myopic

seanchan empress and a head of institution harboring delusions of grandeur.

they "discussed" two different issues,i.e.,borders and aes sedai vs damane, as the

leader of the white tower,it was well within her rights to discuss the future relationship

between aes sedai and the seanchan empire,but who gave egwene the mandate to

reopen borders negotiations?on whose authority egwene discussed tremalking?

let me remind you how their "negotiations" ended:

degenerate A "i will break you myself,someday,your people will turn you over to me..." bla bla bla.

degenerate B"i plan to live for centuries,i will watch your empire crumble..." bla bla bla.

they didn't sign anything of course,and a few days/weeks? later egwene was dead.

so,was there an agreement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might not of been friendly, but still was negotiations.  I would say yes there was an agreement, since both agreed.  As for who gave her the authority, when have the Aes Sedai ever asked for authority?.  The WT through history has always acted independently. so why should this be any different.  I think this was simply more of the WT acting on their own.  Another reason I think Tuon will keep to the agreement even with Egwene dead is she truly believes if the Seanchan go to Tar Valon and ask people if they want to be collared, people will say yes.  Just as she believes if she allows people the choice to be collared or leave her lands they well want to be collared. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@sabio,

the dragon peace was a legally binding document signed and witnessed by

all the rulers in randland including the seanchan empress,post last battle the

white tower has a new amyrlin who is completely unaware of the egwene-tuon

agreement,so what's stopping cadsuane from ignoring it?(she doesn't even 

have to renege it,nothing was written or signed).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I recall, there were other non-document contracts in the series; besides Egwene & Tuon.

-the various bargains with the Sea Folk

-the nobles that fled to Haddon Mirk

-the Telaranrhiod meeting with different groups of channelers

-the Ashaman that met with the Hall of the rebel Aes Sedia

and perhaps other things than those.

the Dragon Peace seems to be the only written contract in the series.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Jack, I believe the keeper was there and she is still alive.  But as mb has posted verbal agreements seem binding..  My guess that is one of the reasons Rand wanted everything on paper so if any of the rulers died then the new rulers couldn't deny it existed.  True Cas could simply ignore it but I doubt she will since there really is nothing in the deal that is really bad for the WT and the sea folk get to be free. Bascially the seanchan can come to the WT and ask people if they want to be collared while anyone in seanchan land that wants to go free can. So Cas would be pretty dumb to not go with the deal.  Look at the sea folk not sure any agreement they made with Nyn and elayne were in writing but those are pretty binding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jack, Yeah it was sort of me assuming the keeper was there if she was alive.  I just reread it and besides Gawyn it doesn't say who else accompanied Egwene to her meeting with  Tuon and her group. It mentioned Seanchan nobility being there so I would assume Egwene wouldn't come alone, but who she took it doesn't say.   I agree that Tuon could very easily decide the verbal agreement with Egwene is null and void.  After all she did debate breaking the treaty with Rand.  Only reason I think she would keep it is she truly thinks people will come to her to be collared.  But your point of Cas being unaware is a good one if Egwene did only go with Gawyn, then LOL everyone on the WT side who went there is dead. 

Edited by Sabio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how many Tuatha'an survived Tarmon Gaidon?  and how many of those still follow the Way of the Leaf?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took Rand's "impossible pipe" to mean he's become something more with more understanding of the nature of the pattern.  He can basically use reality like Dreamers use tel'ran'rhoiod.  He has an understanding of bending the pattern to his will now that his battle is over.  He almost, nearly had that figured out when he was angry with Cadsuane in the room after he escaped Semirhage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dreamwalkers use telaranrhoid; Dreamers have Dreams that predict the future.  those 2 are not necessarily the same.

 

 

my last questions repeated/rephrased::

How many Tuatha'an/Tinkers survived Tarmon Gaidon?  and how many of the survivors still follow "The Way of the Leaf"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@mb, that's one of those questions that there is no answer to.  My guess would be probably a lot.  Unless there were trollocs rampaging in the South we don't know about or darkfriends killing folks.  The southern lands stayed pretty safe.  Doesn't sound like many went to the borderlands and they avoid big cities so unlikely any were in Caemlyn when it fell.  They also were probably avoiding the really unstable regions.  So probably a good  amount of the Tuatha'an survived.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did anyone find it strange that Moridin killed Alanna by throwing a knife at her? It just seemed... Un-Moridinish to me, considering that he's a philosopher who just happens to be an extremely strong channeler. He's never been a soldier or anything relating to combat, as far as we know. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moridin was at Shadar Logoth when Rand was hunting Sammael.  Crown of Swords.

And he inadvertently killed a guy in Ebou Dar.  Path of Daggers.

 

one reason for the knife could be the place.

one reason for the victim could be her connection to Rand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moridin was at Shadar Logoth when Rand was hunting Sammael.  Crown of Swords.

And he inadvertently killed a guy in Ebou Dar.  Path of Daggers.

 

one reason for the knife could be the place.

one reason for the victim could be her connection to Rand.

 

I know, but to be able to throw a knife like that so accurately without having experience just seemed a little weird. I'm probably just looking way too far into it, but when I read it for the first time it threw me off a bit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Throwing knives a small distance is quiet easy actually (I've tried it a few times in my youth and it's almost like playing darts), more so if they are made precisely for that.

Still I see why it threw you off. You're right it's not Moridin-ish. Perhaps that was intended, as a surprise sneak attack "didn't-expect-that-from-me-did-ya". Or perhaps we are taking a simple scene into too deep consideration xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember Ishamael was a proficient fighter with the blade (staff). In TGH Rand - who has killed a blademaster at this point - couldn't defeat Ishamael in the duel above Falme without 'Sheathing the Sword'. 

 

Ishamael may have been a philosopher but he fought in the War of Power not only as an administrator but a combatant and general. He wasn't a military man like Sammael, but he could fight, and throwing a knife a few metres wouldn't be very hard for him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Throwing knives a small distance is quiet easy actually (I've tried it a few times in my youth and it's almost like playing darts), more so if they are made precisely for that.

Still I see why it threw you off. You're right it's not Moridin-ish. Perhaps that was intended, as a surprise sneak attack "didn't-expect-that-from-me-did-ya". Or perhaps we are taking a simple scene into too deep consideration xD

 

 

Remember Ishamael was a proficient fighter with the blade (staff). In TGH Rand - who has killed a blademaster at this point - couldn't defeat Ishamael in the duel above Falme without 'Sheathing the Sword'. 

 

Ishamael may have been a philosopher but he fought in the War of Power not only as an administrator but a combatant and general. He wasn't a military man like Sammael, but he could fight, and throwing a knife a few metres wouldn't be very hard for him. 

 

 

Ah ok, you're both right. I guess just at that time of reading it it just seemed so unusual. But after thinking of it like that, it's not really all that surprising. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also he didn't have many options.  He had already stabbed her so she would slowly bleed to death and didn't expect anyone to heal her.  Channeling there is apparently death, so when Nyn stabilized her he really had few options on how to kill her.  He could toss a dagger or run over there and try to stab her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How does Padan Fain die so easily? I am not looking for the simple answer of mat being immune to him and somehow devising a plan to fake death so he can get close and luckily pick up the dagger and stab him with it. I am not looking for what the book says happened.

 

I am trying to figure out how this essence where his mind was mashadar:

 

A. Made it to Shayol Ghul, what path did he take and why could not a little of that path of destruction and chaos be written into the book? I understand there is already a lot in the book but wouldn't a little forsight been better than a small mention at the end as..."oh, he is already there, and he has transformed into this essence with only barely a physical body that he can hide within the fog" And no one saw this before hand?

 

B. Why he wasn't more of a factor in the last battle. I mean in the few pages he was in, he brought total death and chaos, so how was that not employed in more important areas? We all have seen the control he has over darkspawn, Why did it not show him taking down one of the forsaken or a group of channelers or something??

 

C. That he could be so vulnerable at the specific time when Mat was actually at the mountain? I mean this just seems like convenient story telling to me, like Matt wasn't even close to here the entire battle but for this one instance, this one person who is actually immune(for whatever reason) can be there to kill him?? Tying up loose ends? Plot wise it doesn't make much sense to me. Not that Matt could kill him, that seems plausible in one fashion or another, but just "oh matt is here, boom you are dead" and it literally happens that quick. Matt sees the fog, recognizes it, gets pulled into the fog, kills fain.

 

anyways, not really questions people can answer i suppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fain didn't want to take part in the battle, he just wanted to kill Rand and maybe the DO, so he naturally goes where he knows he can do that when he knows he can do that.

He wouldn't have any reason whatsoever to appear anywhere else. Certainly not at any battlefield.

I would also have liked a little more of him in the last book but I guess there just wasn't room for it and though sudden he does what he has to as a character in the story. I don't think Brandon was wrong.

 

Mat and him are in the mountain at the same time because both go there at the crucial moment. It may seem convenient to you but Mat had his good reasons to go when he did and not after or before, same as Fain had his reasons to go when he did. So well, coincidence happens in real life, you shouldn't blame it on "convenient story telling" just because.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fain himself had a POV saying to the effect why chase Rand about when you knew where he would be, so he walked to there.  Even with RJ writing Fain became almost an after thought, he wasn't suppose to be a main character so he was never going to get a huge role un the last battle even is RJ had written it.  Fain really wasn't all that super powerful, a channeler on a hill could of blasted him with balefire.  On of Mats gateways in the sky could of blasted him from above.  Yes he was tough to the average sword using soldier but many of the channelers could of destroyed him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@naggash,

"fain didn't want to take part in the last battle,he just wanted to kill rand...'

agreed, padan fain or ordeith or whatever name he called himself,didn't

give a rat's arse about the last battle,his grievance against rand was personal.

 

sabio, robert jordan should've let rand execute padan fain in winter's heart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...