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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

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That's true Moraine thinking the horn could be sounded by the Shadow forcing the heroes to fight for them is a good example of an in character quote of something they believe to be true but turns out its not.  Glad to see I was not the only one who thought balefire ended you forever.  Just sounded like if it removed you from the pattern that the pattern couldn't simply put you back in another age.

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That's true Moraine thinking the horn could be sounded by the Shadow forcing the heroes to fight for them is a good example of an in character quote

 

speaking of which.

now that it has been clarified that she was wrong about that, i've wondered:

 

what would actually happen in the Shadow got their hands on the Horn and used it?

would the Heroes just not come at all, or would they start cutting up Trollocs anyway?

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That actually leads to an interesting question. 

 

How long do Trollocs live? (and Myrddraal) 

 

I haven't seen anything in the interviews, anyone know anything about this?

 

You could use a bit of biology, but I'm not sure how far that can be reliable, after all it is fantasy.

 

Trollocs are a hybrid of human and a variety of other animals (wolf, goat, eagle are the three off the top of my head). 

 

Most of the animal hybrids live considerably less than humans in the 'real world'. That would suggest that Trollocs natural lifespan would be approximately half of a humans. The high rate of reproduction and their innate aggression would back that up. (Of course, the aggression is mostly the DO's influence)

 

Myrddraal being the human-dominant Trolloc children would suggest they live longer than their Trolloc brethren, if not so long as humans. On the other hand, their unique qualities might actually extend their lives beyond human span if they are mainly human bolstered with some of the other animal immunity and strengths. 

 

The other factor is of course the DO and Aginor, which can't really be factored in to a large extent, but we can use some reasoning. 

 

1. The TP can be used to prolong lives. See Aginor in EotW, and RJ confirmed this was how the DO would grant the Forsaken immortality. (let me know if you want me to find the quote.) 

 

The Trollocs were made in part with the TP, it is possible that this could have a similar effect. Conversely, as we see with Ishamael, unrestrained use of the TP will destroy the user. It could then mean the Trollocs lives are reduced. It depends on how the True Power was used in the creation, as it can both heal/destroy.  The answer we don't know, as we have no idea HOW Aginor created them precisely. 

 

2. The purpose of Trollocs when Aginor created them was a disposable super-soldier. The high birth rates and lack of children Trollocs - not to mention Aginor's disregard for the life-quality of his subjects - would suggest they were created to breed and mature quickly, which would likely come at the expense of reducing their life-span. After all, they were likely to be killed as OP-fodder, efficiency and turnover would be more important than longevity. 

 

Anyhow, I just found it interesting, if anyone wants to continue the discussion, I can create a new topic, so as not to derail the simple question thread. 

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Good question about if a person of the shadow blew the horn.  It does say let whoever sound me not think of glory stuff.  But never says if they wouldn't show up if you blew it for the wrong reasons.  I would think just being a forsaken wouldn't be enough for them not to show up simply because it never says anything about the person having to have a pure heart to sound the horn.  But a person of the shadow probably wouldn't be sounding the horn for a noble reason.  Also there is the needing to follow the banner/dragon thing.  So if a forsaken did sound it they might just show up and stare at him.  If you blew the horn because you wanted Hawkwing to rob a bank for you, I don't know if he wouldn't show or show up and tell you to screw off.

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In aMoL Hawkwing makes it clear. 

He says straight up that they have/would never fight for the Shadow. The Heroes would either not show up at all like above, or just ignore the Hornsounder. 

 

In fact, that makes me wonder if the Hornsounder has anything to do with the Heroes' actions at all. We know the Horn is bound to the sounder unto death, but I can't recall anything to suggest that the Heroes are bound to obey the Hornsounder in any way. Hawkwing is restrained even when Mat blows it at Falme saying he needs the Banner. 

 

The best the Shadow could hope for it seems would be they have their own Hornsounder, so the Light can't summon the Heroes. Or of course they could take the Horn away like they did in aMoL. 

 

It would explain why they never truly made an effort to acquire the Horn in full. They wanted Mat dead of course, and separated from the Horn, but never really showed any interest in using it for themselves, rather just denying the Light the opportunity to use it. 

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I took it that it was being taken to Dem and he would sound it.  Hard to say how much the shadow knew about the horn since was it used before or even around when the attempt to seal the bore happened or was it created after the Forsaken had been sealed. Were the souls bound to the horn the 100 companions who accompanied Lewis? I just assumed Dem would try and sound it. 

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1. You are correct, I had forgotten, but yeah, they were taking it to Demandred. 

 

2. The Horn existed before the AoL, it is unknown when it was created, but it had to be created at least before the AoL. I'm not sure how one gets bound to the Horn. They are all of course heroes in some respect, but Mat - who was by all means a hero worthy of the Horn - was not. Some suggest this was because Mat didn't WANT to, but RJ has said that people don't get a choice to be bound by the Horn. (again, I can search the quote if you want, I'm just doing a quick one atm) 

 

3. I should have clarified, you are correct that the Forsaken etc.. may want to use the Horn, I meant the DO. The DO most likely knew it was impossible, and thus didn't give any direct orders to get the Horn. I would say it would have been one of the first thing the DO would have ordered if there was a chance to use it for the Shadow. So Demandred wanting to use the Horn I believe was his own decision - because he had no idea. The DO wouldn't want to correct any of the Forsaken on the matter either. Getting it out of the hands of the Light would be a good idea, and if he did tell them, they would be less likely to go after it - since it doesn't give them any power, and makes them a target. 

 

SO yeah, I meant the Horn wouldn't be in the DO's immediate interests, thus explaining the lack of interest in such a powerful object beyond a few attempts to kill Mat (which was more him being one of the Three ta'veren anyway) and the theft in aMoL. 

 

On the other hand, it's possible the DO is equally ignorant.It's possible that the Horn is something the DO hadn't encountered before, but I doubt that.  My understanding is that the Horn has been around for countless turnings, not just this recent cycle. Nothing to suggest one way or another, but I get that vibe from the Heroes that they have been around for countless turnings, not just a few thousand years. 

 

The most likely scenario in my mind is that the DO has at some stage had the Horn in the possession of someone from the Shadow (after countless turnings, I would doubt it remained in the Light's possession every single time.) and it didn't work. (Thus Hawkwing being certain he would never serve the Shadow. It must be from experience, unless they get a set of instructions when they become Heroes.)

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Cant remember the exact wording, but couldnt the horn only be blown by someone who thinks only of their salvation.

 

Its doutbfull anyone working for the shadow would not have a more selfish motive for blowing the horn.

 

Even so i think having the horn would be a priority for the DO if only to stop the light from using it.

Edited by damandred

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Siuan told that either side could sound the Horn; Great Hunt.  Hawkwing seemed to tell that only the Light side could sound the Horn; Memory of Light.  One of them had to been mistaken.

The Horn being bound to one sounder could also be merely character belief.

 

The prophecy said "Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation."

Great Hunt Chapter 5.

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Well. I should imagine that out of Siuan Sanche and Artur Hawkwing, the latter would have more accurate knowledge of the workings of the Horn. (Which I'm sure is what you were implying anyway, because... common sense, duh.)

 

As for the think only of salvation thing, how many Shadowsworn do you imagine would be thinking of salvation? Enough Light folks would have trouble with that, let alone someone who has sold their soul for profit.

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All Hawkwing said was the heroes wouldn't serve the shadow.  The question is if you sound it for the wrong reason if the heroes show up at all.  Since it seems even if they do show up they still need the banner and the dragon to do anything.  So they might show up and tell you to pike off.

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Who are the Heros of the Horn mentioned in AMoL based on?  I assume that Artur Hawkwing is King Arthur of old English legends (obviously); Amaresu is Amaterasu, the Japanese Sun Goddess; Buad of Albhain is Boudica of Alba (Scotland).

 

But I can't figure out who Hend the Striker and Blaes of Matuchin are.

 

I think Hend the Striker is John Henry, at least, that's who I instantly connected him with.

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Sometime in Egwene's conversation with Tuon, Egwene requested that damane be set free; damane that wanted to be free.  Was that done?  If so, how many and when?

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mb, you have a tendency to ask questions that cannot be answered.

 

FWIW, however, IIRC the content of Egwene and Fortuona's agreement does not specify that existing damane will be released, should they so desire. Rather, it specifies that any girl who is tested and found to have the spark can choose to leave Seanchan lands and head to the Tower instead.

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Ishy had told Rand that LTT and him had battled thousands of times.  It got me thinking that LTT soul will always go for the good and Ishy is always destined to be bad. Maybe this had already been asked but like the heroes bound to the horn, are the forsaken souls always destined to serve the shadow when the age is right?  We know the heroes like Brigette aren't always born to exciting lives as she mentioned once being a farmer or something and it was the most miserable existence ever.  So are people like Lanfear, Dem, Ishy souls always destined to go to the shadow when the time comes?

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Perhaps Ishamael, but nobody else. Even Heroes can be evil in one lifetime. They are not all destined to serve the Light every single life. 

 

Nor are those who serve the Shadow bound to serve it in any other life. The whole concept around the DO at the LB was that of choice. People choose to go over to the Shadow in their lifetime. 

 

Of course, there are some who theorize that once bound to the Shadow, the DO has a hold of you for eternity. To me, it seems unlikely. It was a belief made by those who had only experienced the DO as a part of the world, not sealed away. Those Forsaken who believed it, believed that the DO could never be perfectly sealed away. Personally, I think that with the DO perfectly sealed, all ties to the Pattern and the souls within the Pattern are cut. The next time he is released, he has to re-start the process. 

 

We don't have much in the way of evidence, but RJ has said the Dragon has served the Shadow before, so that would suggest loyalty is not a permanent link to the soul, but something one chooses from life-to-life. 

 

For example take the difference between Rand and LTT. They were both 'good' so to speak, but Rand says his upbringing and friends in this life gave him the strength to do what Lews Therin could not understand. 

 

It would suggest that the same thing could happen with the Forsaken. If Demandred was not born and lived constantly in someone else's shadow, being so close but not good enough, things might be different. Lanfear's attitude could be different if she was not born with perfect beauty and power, or had a good family etc..

 

It applies to all of the Forsaken, and all people in general. 

 

The only possible exception is Ishamael, who may be the Champion of the Shadow. Still, if the Champion of the Light has turned in some ages, it would not be inconsistent to believe the same applies to the Champion of the Shadow. 

 

The Heroes are perhaps more tightly controlled by the Wheel than normal lives, but as we see with Hawkwing, they can become corrupted and used by the Shadow, if not become outright Darkfriends. Of course, none of the Heroes are inherently DF's in T'a'R they are all 'good', but with no memory and a clean slate in a life, nothing suggests they could not become evil. 

 

Basically, I think the principle of the battle between the Light and Shadow is that nobody is inherently good or bad, but it's the choices and events in ones life that decide things. 

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In aMoL he was that husk in the Pit of Doom. Basically, he was the DO's avatar. The DO was sufficiently freed that he didn't need an avatar any more, so he discarded it. 

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