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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

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I think what Damandred means re: turning is that the 2nd Age was doomed to be imperfect sealing of the bore and that the LTT Dragon was not the 'perfect' Rand Dragon form. So while it is teh same soul, i believe the idea he's trying to get across is that the Dragon would have likely been turned in a 2nd Age, LTT incarnation, where the DO is not completely defeated, thus ending in a draw. The Rand, 3rd Age incarnation is essential however, and NEEDS to win completely, whereas the LTT incarnation doesn't. That imperfect sealing could perhaps be done by another. 

 

So the Dragon Soul going over to the Shadow would likely have to be in one of the lesser Ages of importance, like the LTT stage, but he has never gone over in the critical 3rd Age period. 

 

 

...That actually makes perfect sense. Thank you!

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to Rob::

I do not recall either monkeys or mole people being in this series.

Fain was one possibility I considered when I first read the scene.

 

it was a joke, i thought that was obvious

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If the DO has the souls of all who have served him, how can the souls be reborn into the pattern. Im thinking of RJ' quote that the dragon has been turned to the dark in past turning of the wheel, wouldnt the DO own his soul for ever? I understand that for a non channeler redemption is quite possible but for someone who can channell the bond is pretty solid ( bet ya Verin was in trouble when she died) . In aMoL there is reference in the meeting between forsaken of the souls being punished for eternity,( moggy pov the souls in the sea) wouldnt the DO just do the same to the dragon if he had his soul? Rand says to moridin that the DO will never let him go, but he has to at some point, right? Other wise how does Isamael and indeed all the forsaken have the freedom to forsake the light and swear to him in the first place? They must be free to follow him again. If that makes any sense.

Or are all souls released when the DO is put back in his prison?

 

If their souls are already sworn to the DO, how do they swear them again every turning of the wheel? And why would the DO keep allowing the numbskulls like Asmodean to be spun?  If he just kept choosing the best of the best over an infinite turning of the wheel, he should have a dream team.

Edited by mbuehner

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I think what happens to souls that are destroyed in the wolf dream or to gray men is one of those sketchy areas that had some conflicting or inexact explanations in the Q&As. 

 

I think the most satisfying answer is that by whatever mechanism, souls are restored when the wheel turns back the beginning. That contradicts some of the wolf knowledge etc... but they are explaining what they believe to be true, not necessarily what is true.

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I think the most satisfying answer is that by whatever mechanism, souls are restored when the wheel turns back the beginning.

 

One thing to note however is that RJ said trolloc souls are corrupted for all time. They will always be reborn as a trolloc. I've always wondered how hey got to the point of being "corrupted" in the first place.

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@ Barid Bel

First thanks for your well thought out reply, and while i think your for the main, spot on, there is one or two issue i will raise.

For the saying " it is never to late to turn back to the light" i think its perfectly true for a non channeler, but thanks to Verin (tGS) we know this is not so true for a channeler, plus we know from Rands fights with Isamael and Asmodean that the DO is connected through some sort of mystical black hucks/wire to the, soul? of the channeler.

Though if that connection is still there after the reforging of the bore i dont know, but i think would still be there after it is patched at end of the second age.

 

For Lanfear' comments about the DO always being there, i think shes probibly right, if the DO is the source of all evil, then he must have some influance even when inprisoned as theres still evil in the world. Recall Rands visons on a world without the DO, and plus i think Lanfear is the most likely person to know about the DO always being there, as she lived in the world before he was released, indeed she being one of the ones to free him.

If that influance is enough to still have control of his souls i dont know. I think your probibly right about him being cut off from them after hes sealed again, other wise it looks like a bit of a blunder from the authors.

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If the DO has the souls of all who have served him, how can the souls be reborn into the pattern. Im thinking of RJ' quote that the dragon has been turned to the dark in past turning of the wheel, wouldnt the DO own his soul for ever? I understand that for a non channeler redemption is quite possible but for someone who can channell the bond is pretty solid ( bet ya Verin was in trouble when she died) . In aMoL there is reference in the meeting between forsaken of the souls being punished for eternity,( moggy pov the souls in the sea) wouldnt the DO just do the same to the dragon if he had his soul? Rand says to moridin that the DO will never let him go, but he has to at some point, right? Other wise how does Isamael and indeed all the forsaken have the freedom to forsake the light and swear to him in the first place? They must be free to follow him again. If that makes any sense.

Or are all souls released when the DO is put back in his prison?

If their souls are already sworn to the DO, how do they swear them again every turning of the wheel? And why would the DO keep allowing the numbskulls like Asmodean to be spun? If he just kept choosing the best of the best over an infinite turning of the wheel, he should have a dream team.

In short i dont know. I think not all who turned in one turning of the wheel, turn again next time, with the exeption of ishamael who seems the shadows champion. Out of the hundreds of AS who turned to the shadow, i think those who are chosen are the strongest in the power and/or climbed their way to the top by great deeds in the war of the shadow or getting the better of their rivals.

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I think the most satisfying answer is that by whatever mechanism, souls are restored when the wheel turns back the beginning.

 

One thing to note however is that RJ said trolloc souls are corrupted for all time. They will always be reborn as a trolloc. I've always wondered how hey got to the point of being "corrupted" in the first place.

 

 

This is a classic case of 'which came first, the trolloc or the corruption'.  But seriously thats fascinating because it flies into Herid Fel's paradox- were trolloc souls made twisted by the creator? And if not, they must have been corrupted at some later point. And if the wheel is infinite, the DO would corrupt more souls with each turning, and eventually you must end up with every soul a trolloc. Wrap your noodle around that one Min.

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And where are the trolloc souls when theres no trolloc's? For most of the ages theres no such thing as a trolloc, so in the place where souls go when their waiting to be reborn theres a army of trolloc souls waiting for the one age where they have a continual presence.

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I think the most satisfying answer is that by whatever mechanism, souls are restored when the wheel turns back the beginning.

 

One thing to note however is that RJ said trolloc souls are corrupted for all time. They will always be reborn as a trolloc. I've always wondered how hey got to the point of being "corrupted" in the first place.

 

 

This is a classic case of 'which came first, the trolloc or the corruption'.  But seriously thats fascinating because it flies into Herid Fel's paradox- were trolloc souls made twisted by the creator? And if not, they must have been corrupted at some later point. And if the wheel is infinite, the DO would corrupt more souls with each turning, and eventually you must end up with every soul a trolloc. Wrap your noodle around that one Min.

 

Maybe those souls sacrificed in Thakan'Dar to create the shadow blades, get corrupted during the "ritual" and that way will reborn as shadowspawns.

Also, did he say that they will always be born as trollocs or that they will always be corrupted? Because the latter would mean that they might born with human bodies, but be corrupted in mind; which in a way, is much more scary thought than the trollocs.

But ultimately, this brings as to the paradox of reincarnating souls; there should always be the strict number of souls and for example a great war would mean that they might all die, or at least they couldn't reborn anymore as men or trollocs or what ever. Also, as the population grows, might there be a situation where there is no more souls, what then? miscarriages until the end of the age? identical twins :D?(shared soul xD).

Maybe that last part went a bit too far there... also, if your answer will be "wheel weaves as wheel wills", Moiraine already gave me that ;)

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They are only reborn as trollocs.

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 9th, 2002

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

QUESTION

How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

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Wherever Aginor went at death was as I recall described as unpleasant. The Dark One's window of opportunity is not that narrow I think for grabbing souls, Jordan seemed to indicate it was respectable anyway in an interview. He made it sound as I recall like the DO had more than a couple of minutes anyway, which is all balefire generally is.

 

The issue with balefire to my understanding is that the DO cannot step outside of time, so even if someone is balefired just a few minutes back the DO can't grab the soul just because of  that.

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RJ on the DO and souls...
 

 

Interview: Apr 20th, 2004Week 3 Question (Matt Hatch)
There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?
Robert Jordan

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately—that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death—but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the Pattern.

Edited by Suttree

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If there is a set number of souls that would mean if you went about and balefired everybody you saw then no one could be reborn?

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If there is a set number of souls that would mean if you went about and balefired everybody you saw then no one could be reborn?

Balefire is not the eternal death of the soul. You can still be reborn.

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Ohh thought when you got balefired the soul was gone forever.  So much for my plan to end the DO plans forever, blast everyone and no one left to drill into the bore.

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I think that may have been RJs earlier conception (or at least presentation) of balefire. I certainly believed that also at one point in the series. Obviously RJ could not have that as then you would have the threat of that occurring.

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There was a confusion about balefire early on. RJ did say they were ultimately dead -if he intended it to be taken that way, or merely saying that they were 'gone' and couldn't be resurrected in THIS life ala. transmigration is unknown.  He either changed his mind or clarified his position later saying that the soul was not destroyed forever. 

 

In fact, I believe Brandon also had the same belief until Maria clarified it for him, so it's not uncommon for people to be confused. 

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There was a confusion about balefire early on. RJ did say they were ultimately dead -if he intended it to be taken that way, or merely saying that they were 'gone' and couldn't be resurrected in THIS life ala. transmigration is unknown.  He either changed his mind or clarified his position later saying that the soul was not destroyed forever. 

 

In fact, I believe Brandon also had the same belief until Maria clarified it for him, so it's not uncommon for people to be confused. 

 

That's interesting. I too thought that balefire eliminated the person forever.  Around what time did RJ change his mind or clarify?

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I've just had a closer look at the interviews and from what I gather it seems like it wasn't RJ changing his mind, but confusion over what he meant. 

 

There are possibly earlier interviews, but I can't find them, so this is what we have to go on. The earliest interview about the subject I could find was this one: 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 1998
 
JOHN NOVAK
[is balefire the eternal death of the soul?]
 
ROBERT JORDAN
If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.

 

 

The interview where it seems like he says otherwise is a later interview, where it seems to me like people just mistook his meaning. 

 
INTERVIEW: Apr, 2003
Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)
 
MORT
What about the thread of the life in case of the Forsaken? Are they part of the Pattern or they are outside? Is it broken in the case of the Forsaken?
 
ROBERT JORDAN
No. They're part of the Wheel, except for the fellows who've been balefired, who are now gone: no rebirth [resurrection]; they’re out. The Dark One is outside of the Pattern, as the Creator is outside of the Pattern, but everything human is inside of the Pattern. One of the things that the Forsaken hope to gain is immortality. And immortality would put them outside of the Pattern.
 
FOOTNOTE
RJ has said elsewhere that balefire is not the eternal death of the soul, and Brandon has confirmed it (and so RJ was merely saying that the balefired Forsaken could not be transmigrated into new bodies).

 

 

In any case, there WAS that confusion around, so it's understandable if you don't read up all the interviews. 

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But its in the books themselves, where its claimed balefire is the eternal death. Cant remember right now where its first stated, but i was under the impresion it was, long before i read a RJ quote on the subject.

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For in-book quotes we must consider who says (or thinks) it. Most of the characters don't have all the information they think of as facts, completely right.

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