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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

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Hmmm...I don't think its optional.  We see Lan struggling with it, even when he isn't off trying to kill himself he is basically dead inside, he has accepted death.  We see it from numerous characters who notice the look in his eyes, and from Myrelle via what she feels through the bond, and this is even when he has a reason to live (i.e. Nynaeve).  Anyway, what I was curious about was why Rand didn't seem to notice that Alanna was injured lying essentially right next to him in SG.  Surely it would have at least elicited a mention from him but he doesn't even seem to know that she is there.

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Rand does notice. He feels that one of the women has been assaulted, and gets pissed off at the Shadow, before calming down as he was just about to confront the DO. 

 

He didn't know who or where, because of the distortion happening at Shayol Ghul at the time. All the Warder bonds are messed up at the time, and it was impossible to tell who or where  (even when) the feelings came from. 

 

The Warder Rage isn't optional, but it isn't a terminal disease. It is possible to withstand the death rage. Warders can recover, although it certainly is a hard thing to do; and for normal warders at least, it requires help. Channelers may have it differently, as it is harder to manipulate them through the bond (and the Asha'man have to use an extreme method on the AS.) 

 

Also, RJ did say that having multiple bonds would lessen the effect if one of them dies. 

 

However, Nynaeve was correct, Rand could not afford any distraction, much less one of his bonders dying. Rand could very well have withstood one of them dying, and recovered from it with all of the advantages he had after his assimilation with Lews Therin (before VoG, he was totally nuts, and would have gone over the edge). However, it would be impossible at the time he was fighting the DO. He was barely holding on as it was, and with the huge amount of OP he was wielding through Callandor, things would not go well. 

 

He would have lost concentration for at least a while before he even realised what happened, and would have experienced extreme rage before he could try to control it. This would have been deadly. He likely would have been destroyed by the DO, and if not struck dead straight away, would have lost control of the Power, and who knows what could be done with the amount he was wielding. 

 

So basically, in the situation, he was as good as dead if any of them had died while he fought the DO. But there was little choice. They wouldn't release his Bond pre-SG (and Alanna was missing, so it would have been pointless even if the other three did. In fact, worse, since the other Bonds would lessen the rage) nor could he sever them. There would be no point in trying to keep them safe either (if they would have accepted it, which they wouldn't) since NOWHERE was safe anyway, and they couldn't afford to waste their skills. 

 

Ideally, it would have been best to Sever all the Bonds pre-SG, but for personal and practical reasons, it just wasn't possible. He couldn't tell Aviendha and Elayne to stay out of trouble, since trouble was everywhere, and would come to them. (You could say they could have Travelled them to Seanchan or Shara or some ridiculously secluded area, but really,  it wouldn't have been worth the effort. Dreadlords could track them down if they wished.)

 

However, he didn't just forget it. He did send Min to the safest place he could - and even then she wasn't happy, but realised it was best. For Aviendha, powerful Channeler, Wise One and former Maiden, and Elayne, powerful Channeler and Queen of Andor, there was no way that anyone could have convinced either of them to stay safe. So he did the best. First of all, he made Elayne indispensable. Making her the overall commander, her life was top priority for all of the Generals. She couldn't be sacrificed like Tenobia was. To a lesser extent, he did the same with Aviendha, making her commander of the Shayol Ghul Channeling team. This way, they couldn't just run into battle solo, or be sacrificed if they were in trouble. It gave them, and those around them, a good reason to keep them as safe as they could. (remember, not many know about the Bondings, so most wouldn't even have thought about that.)

 

Of course, those small things didn't make a whole lot of difference, there was danger everywhere, it was impossible to avoid it. But Rand did at least do a bit of planning. It was a "best of a dire situation" type thing. 

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I agree that it would have been very difficult to convince Aviendha and Elayne in particular to stay out of danger, but I think the chance of them being killed would have been significantly lower if they had gone to Mayene, where we didn't see any fighting.  In fact, as far as we are aware, anywhere south of Andor was pretty much untouched in the LB.  There were plenty of better places for them to go, particularly for Aviendha who was on the front lines fighting with only plot armour to protect her.

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How did the forsaken speak the language of the 3rd age immediately upon being freed? Shouldn't they all speak the Old Tongue?

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How did the forsaken speak the language of the 3rd age immediately upon being freed? Shouldn't they all speak the Old Tongue?

 

 

 

Interview: Jan 25th, 2005 Week 14 Question
If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?
Robert Jordan

They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken "here and now" was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of "today."

 

 

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In AMoL, during The Last Battle chapter on page 785, Mellar and his cronies capture Elayne. A man brings up a dead woman to show Andor's troops that Elayne is dead. Her description is "the facedown corpse dangled golden hair. Whoever the poor woman was, she wore a dress exactly like Elayne's." Elayne then thinks "Oh no...", indicating that she might have known who the woman was. Is there any clarification on if this woman was Morgase? Last we heard of Morgase was during Ila's POV on pages 766-768, she was helping with wounded and dead. At the end of this POV, Ila sees some mercenaries and one of them calls out for Hanlon (Mellar). Next we see of Mellar is when he captures Elayne, so he was right there at the same place as Morgase and easily could have taken her. As far as I know, the only time Morgase is mentioned by name in AMoL is during Ila's POV, so there was never any clarification on if she lived through the Last Battle or not.

Edited by Galium

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I took that as "Oh no - everyone will see that lookalike and think its me so no one will think to come here to save me" or "now people will think i'm dead and that will kill their spirits."  I don't think she recognized the girl, she just realized the darkfriends' plan.

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I took that as "Oh no - everyone will see that lookalike and think its me so no one will think to come here to save me" or "now people will think i'm dead and that will kill their spirits."  I don't think she recognized the girl, she just realized the darkfriends' plan.

That was my initial thought also and I still think that is it but I'm not really 100% sure. I'm hoping that the encyclopedia will clarify on it, as well as maybe have a complete list from Sanderson or Harriett on who survived the Last Battle and who didn't.

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A few questions:

 

- Do we ever find out what happened to Alanna? Besides the fact that she was kidnapped (how? by who?) and then resurfaced in Shayol Ghul at the worst possible time?

 

- Can each of Rand's women release his bond separately, or do they have to do it all together? And if they can, why didn't Aviendha sever the bond when she thought she was going to die? She knew her death would doom him.

 

- What was the point of Alivia? I was hoping to understand why she's such a special damane that she could turn on the Seanchan after 400 years of captivity, but I guess it's never explained.

 

- Do we ever find out more about Verin's letters? Or will we in the Encyclopedia?

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A few questions:

 

- Do we ever find out what happened to Alanna? Besides the fact that she was kidnapped (how? by who?) and then resurfaced in Shayol Ghul at the worst possible time?

 

- Can each of Rand's women release his bond separately, or do they have to do it all together? And if they can, why didn't Aviendha sever the bond when she thought she was going to die? She knew her death would doom him.

 

- What was the point of Alivia? I was hoping to understand why she's such a special damane that she could turn on the Seanchan after 400 years of captivity, but I guess it's never explained.

 

- Do we ever find out more about Verin's letters? Or will we in the Encyclopedia?

1) Beyond Nynaeve commenting that Alanna should have been better guarded and Cadsuane agreeing with her, and Rand thinking she is in the Borderlands there is not much.  One of Verin's letters is found in her room, so its possible the contents made her leave under her own steam as there was no channeling sufficient for a gateway and no signs of a struggle.

 

2) Obviously Min can't release it on his own.  Aviendha may not know how to sever the bond, although it would have been a sensible thing to teach her.  The Wise Ones don't take Warders and Elayne made the actual bonding weave, so maybe she doesn't know how to remove it.  It doesn't seem to be particularly easy to figure out as Androl doesn't automatically know how to remove it.

 

3) I think she was a bit of a red herring, maybe to get people guessing about what her role in helping Rand die would be, particularly as her great strength in the power was mentioned so often that we were led to believe it would be something to do with channeling.  I guess she kind of acted as Rand's body guard to some extent, and maybe showed that not all Seanchan buy into the inhumane aspects of their culture.  Although, her personality is so undeveloped, and the little bits we see err towards cruelty/spite, that it seems a bit of a waste if that was the intention.  I guess RJ might have had more planned for her but she probably wasn't a priority to leave notes on.

 

4) http://13depository.blogspot.co.uk/2002/02/verin-and-her-letters.html has a summary of what we do know about and speculate about Verin's letters.  Would be nice if they were in the encyclopaedia.

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I was wondering if there were any solid clues as to who Ileyna was reborn as, assuming she was reborn?

 

I always assumed it was Min because he always kept her closest to him.

I don't think we have any concrete evidence.  Lanfear notices Elayne's similarities to Ilyena (in appearance and name - Ilyena is a verion of Elayne).  Apart from the three most obvious possible candidates (Min, Elayne, and Aviendha) I have seen speculation that she may be Alivia or Moiraine, but I don't think there is any substance to any of it.

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is there any indication that she's reborn at all? Ilyena had no true impact on the greater story. There is no indication she'd been reborn before or that she's tied to the Horn and the Wheel with LTT.

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All souls are reborn, so yes, she will have been reborn.  She is not a special soul that is spun out by the pattern, i.e. none of her traits or actions carry over, but her soul itself will.

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But there's no evidence to think she had been spun out during this time period, or that she was anyone "special" to the plot if she had been.

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All souls are reborn, so yes, she will have been reborn.  She is not a special soul that is spun out by the pattern, i.e. none of her traits or actions carry over, but her soul itself will.

Yes, but if she's reborn she wont be 'Ilyena Reborn' or anything like that.

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There is nothing to suggest Ilyena was born in the Third Age. She will eventually be reborn, but there are no solid links to anyone in the story.

 

I would say she was reborn without any knowledge of her past life, or she has yet to be reborn. 

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- Can each of Rand's women release his bond separately, or do they have to do it all together? And if they can, why didn't Aviendha sever the bond when she thought she was going to die? She knew her death would doom him.

To release the bond, according to RJ, one had to be there with the person, touching them. So Aviendha couldn't have done it even if she knew how.

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Is there any difference in potential between channelers that are born with the spark and those who can be taught to channel?

Edited by Thornan

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Is there any difference in potential between channelers that are born with the spark and those who can be taught to channel?

 

Nope.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jun 10th, 2010

LUCKERS
Of the really strong channelers we know the nature to, all but one have been sparkers. This has led to the belief that sparkers are on average stronger than learners. Is this belief justified?
MARIA SIMONS
No. "Having been born with the inherent spark apparently is not an indicator of strength. There are as many with weak potential who will channel whether they are taught or not as there are of great potential" (from Jim's notes). The stronger ones just get more attention.
LUCKERS
Do stronger sparkers stand a better chance of surviving touching the Source unaided?
MARIA SIMONS

It depends on what you mean by "stronger" sparkers. If you mean strength in the One Power, not really. If you mean strength of will or character, perhaps. Jim said of touching the One Power unaided: "if you have not learned some sort of rough control, conscious or not, you will die screaming and writhing in agony."

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