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As of about half way through the series, Rand/Elayne has to take the cake for the most contrived romance I've ever encountered.

 

Egwene/Gawyn is awfully awful too.

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  • 1 month later...

I agree to the Gawyn/Egwene relationship was the worst. Gawyn is such a tool and Egwene is so bratty thinking she could set Rand in his place when he is the fucking Dragon Reborn. I dislike Gawyn and Egwene character too, maybe that is why i can't stand their relationship and courting.

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Egwene and Gawyn's relationship didn't get a lot of build up, it got more development over time but it was contingent on their feelings being established. I don't think they're a bad match either really. Egwene is someone who has had to fight tooth and nail and suffer abuses to get into the position of authority she is in, clearly not for the sake of ruling but, more like Perrin's feelings on leading, if you want it done right, do it yourself. They were approaching the last battle and the WT should not be in-fighting but should be focused against the shadow and if you gotta be harsh to get that done than you gotta be harsh. Gawyn has to grow and learn that he's not always right. And his idea of leading is not always the best. You gotta trust the people you love and, when they are only holding onto authority by a fingernail you can't be seen undermining them. Now, she's of STUBBORN Two Rivers stock so she was too pig headed to see how much she did need him? Yeah. That's a fault that seems to run deep in the Two Rivers. But they figure it out. The most interesting part of their development is learning how to make their situation better. But the initial realization of feeling outside the Aiel camp? Could have been better written.

Edited by LadyGreyfist
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  • 1 year later...

Not sure if this Thread is still active, In fact, it definitely isn't, but I'm just gonna put my two cents in. Mat and Tuon was the worst romance in WoT no contest. It even beats out Gawyn and Egwene, Morgase and Tallanvor, and Perrin and Faile(all three of which are trash imo). Not only is Tuon herself one of the worst characters in the series, but the relationship is extremely unbelievable and rushed. And If everyone is forgetting this, it only came about because the Aelfinn told Mat he would marry the Daughter of the nine Moons. It wouldn't have happened if you hadn't told him that dummies! 

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55 minutes ago, Raolin Darksbane said:

Not sure if this Thread is still active, In fact, it definitely isn't, but I'm just gonna put my two cents in. Mat and Tuon was the worst romance in WoT no contest. It even beats out Gawyn and Egwene, Morgase and Tallanvor, and Perrin and Faile(all three of which are trash imo). Not only is Tuon herself one of the worst characters in the series, but the relationship is extremely unbelievable and rushed. And If everyone is forgetting this, it only came about because the Aelfinn told Mat he would marry the Daughter of the nine Moons. It wouldn't have happened if you hadn't told him that dummies! 

 

Tuon was also given a Foretelling (more or less) by a damane the night before they arrived to Ebou Dar.  She ordered the damane caned due to it.  Lidya was the damane's name, right?

 

Worst relationship to me was the three-in-one relationship.  And I must say, while I LOVE Perrin and Faile, I cannot stand what their story became.  The love made sense more or less, and I found the parts of Perrin and Faile trying to navigate how to be gentry in the Two Rivers more interesting.  Faile had the skill but no desire to apply, while Perrin had no desire to apply the skill.  

 

That is not to say that I enjoyed his endless complaints about being a lord.  That all could have wrapped up faster and maybe instead of having such a meandering plot, Perrin could've wrapped up the whole Malden thing quickly, returned to Rand with the WC and over 100,000 freed gai'shain, then be sent to Saldaea to prepare the Borderlands.  Since Faile is third in line for the throne and Tenobia MIA they could've rallied the troops and prepared whoever was still stationed in the Borderlands.  And you know, make more catapults like they did in the Two Rivers.  I did notice a severe lack of those in the Last Battle.

 

So yeah.  I liked Tuon and Mat.  I felt that Moirraine and Thom came from the same left field of Nynaeve and Lan (You only get that they're in love if you read Book 1, and in Thom/Moirraine's case, and Book 4 with that knowledge in mind).  I don't mind the three relationships that I outlined in this paragraph, but I haven't even gotten to the one that is the most vexing to me:

 

Rand, Elayne, Aviendha, and Min.  I cannot STAND that relationship.  Aside from the women being VERY accomodating to a VERY unorthodox (by Randland standards even) relationship, the end of the book annoyed me.  Rand wondering which will follow him.

 

Um...

 

Elayne has TWO, count 'em, TWO countries to run.  Aviendha, earning much ji for all her actions in the Last Battle (Leading the channelers at Shayol Ghoul, specifically being picked by the Dragon Reborn to watch his back while he fought inside and remade the Bore, fighting and besting as well as capturing a Forsaken, just to name a few) will certainly turn to work on helping the Aiel maintain a purpose, negotiate the return of the Wise Ones captive in the Seanchan Empire, and preserve as much of the Aiel as possible.  And Min was plucked up by Tuon, who will doubtfully let her soe'fia as well as a Doomspeaker leave her.  "Darbinda" will have a hard time leaving the Seanchan Empress.  And really, would she?  She would be the strongest way to help Mat convince Tuon to at the very least, peacefully coexist with the still existing independent nations of Randland. (That's with Shara notwithstanding)  Oh.  Also, two of those three ladies are pregnant, one more than halfway through her pregnancy.  Who in their right mind would assume such an arrogant thought?

 

That whole relationship hit far too many sour notes for me.  ...Not that any of you can tell.

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3 hours ago, TheAngryDruid said:

 

Galad/Berelain for me. Totally shallow

Yes! This is the relationship that almost seems like a joke on reading. BS just said "hey Faile stops Berlain from chasing Perrin, let's see who's next in Perrin's arc... Galad oh that's great there both young hot people."

I probably wouldn't even consider it a real relationship. 

 

Most romances arent the best but they pass, only a couple really stand out.

Mat/Tuon was my personal favorite reading. The humor and love from Mat with the Seanchean PRINCESS who was learning how the non-seanchean lived was great. 

Rand/Min was great because to Min Rand was just the same old boy she met in Baerlon. She was always there and that was a nice similarity to real love. The other two Rand romances didn't have enough time to fully flesh out which was a shame. I really liked the Avi/Rand relationship. 

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Mat and Tuon was really bizarre for me. I didn't see Thom and Moiraine coming but others did. 

 

What do you think about Siuan and Gareth?

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To me, the worst romance has to be the Egwene/Gawyn romance, mainly because both characters are insufferable.

 

How about the Graendal/Aran'gar romance? 

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Quite a few made sense to me--I could see Siuan/Gareth coming once he started chasing her (and it made complete sense to me that a former general, now exiled and so just a country lord, would feel useless now that he's returned to a town already expertly run and decide to chase miscreants).  I thought Mat/Tuon was somewhat comic.  It did make sense, though.  They both knew they were fated in a way, and Tuon was VERY playful.  

 

I still don't get how Lan/Nynaeve happened.  It was a sweet relationship, though, develops, and both were very complex people.  Berelain/Galad was a completely shallow relationship--love at first sight--but I didn't find either insufferable and it happened fairly late, so never has time to develop.  When Galad took over the Whitecloaks--that was joyous.  Egwene/Gawyn--we only had a few words from Elayne to signify that there might be something when Elayne told Egwene to stop looking at Galad.  It never develops beyond "I like you," even though it had plenty of time to grow.  And both of them were insufferable--especially Gawyn.  You could see Egwene grow, even if all she grew into was an Aes Sedai spider.  Gawyn, though?  He was lost, bitter, and jealous throughout it.  He started out with potential--but I found it funny how Elayne and Gawyn constantly criticise Galad as too pure, but Galad moves on from the White Tower coup and becomes a fairly significant leader.  Gawyn never does.  

 

I didn't like Rand's three--Aviendha, Min, and Elayne--but that was primarily because Min/Rand made sense, the other two didn't.  You can see the reasons why they fell in love--Elayne's walks with him in Tear and Aviendha's advice--but their relationships never developed from that.  Min's reasons are less obvious, but you can see how Rand/Min grows--she's always there for Rand, even when the Dark One nearly turns him.

 

So yes.  I'd say my top three are Egwene/Gawyn, Rand/Aviendha, and Rand/Elayne.

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43 minutes ago, haycraftd said:

Egwene/Gawyn--we only had a few words from Elayne to signify that there might be something when Elayne told Egwene to stop looking at Galad.  It never develops beyond "I like you," even though it had plenty of time to grow.  And both of them were insufferable--especially Gawyn.  You could see Egwene grow, even if all she grew into was an Aes Sedai spider.  Gawyn, though?  He was lost, bitter, and jealous throughout it.  He started out with potential--but I found it funny how Elayne and Gawyn constantly criticise Galad as too pure, but Galad moves on from the White Tower coup and becomes a fairly significant leader.  Gawyn never does.  

 

I didn't like Rand's three--Aviendha, Min, and Elayne--but that was primarily because Min/Rand made sense, the other two didn't.  You can see the reasons why they fell in love--Elayne's walks with him in Tear and Aviendha's advice--but their relationships never developed from that.  Min's reasons are less obvious, but you can see how Rand/Min grows--she's always there for Rand, even when the Dark One nearly turns him.

 

 

I really agree with you regarding Egwene and Gawyn.  I felt like their relationship suffered terribly from a shallow pretense, and became a very strange relationship.  You would have thought that Gareth Bryne would have seen the type of person that Gawyn was and would've rooted out some of those negative personality archetypes.

 

I felt that the later characterization of Gawyn was heavily influenced by Sanderson.  The plot within The Towers of Midnight with Gawyn getting to the root of his problems with Rand and Egwene were based in complete jealousy.  That struck a very sour chord within me.  I felt like Gawyn would not feel that way since from childhood he was groomed to be the second to a flippin' queen.  How, and why, did he not understand chains of command?  His jealousy of Rand because Rand was  the Dragon Reborn? (And his insistence on believing Rand killed Morgase was silly too)

 

It seemed to me that Sanderson turned Gawyn from misguided to a lazy interpretation of the "nice guy" archetype.  He seemed eternally frustrated that he wasn't the main character in everyone else's life, especially Egwene's.  As someone who grew up in a royal castle, he was surely trained in understanding power dynamics, politics, and how to maneuver complex situations.  Instead, he whined, moaned, stole, and hid from others.  Then his "epiphany" at the end of the 13th book was just senseless.

 

And not to beat a dead horse, but I really think Sanderson didn't like Min.  Her participation in the books that he wrote was rather miniscule.  I've reread his books over and over looking for tone in any chapter that has Min in it. (Why yes, I really like her character!) The conclusion I have come to is that most of the last 4 books' chapters with Min in them were written by Jordan, not Sanderson.  The ones that he did write for her differ greatly in tone. (Just like how he wrote Mat so differently from how Jordan did)

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  • 1 year later...

Perrin and Faile was the only genuine seeming relationship among the main characters, excepting possibly Nyn and Lan. .  Despite all the Faile hate by so many, she was as devoted to Perrin as he was to her and she drove him to reach his full potential.  Min and Rand worked well too, although his being unable to set aside his spoiled princess and fiery warrior woman was off putting.  Min deserved better.

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On 9/21/2018 at 8:28 AM, Maedelin said:

 

 

I really agree with you regarding Egwene and Gawyn.  I felt like their relationship suffered terribly from a shallow pretense, and became a very strange relationship.  You would have thought that Gareth Bryne would have seen the type of person that Gawyn was and would've rooted out some of those negative personality archetypes.

 

I felt that the later characterization of Gawyn was heavily influenced by Sanderson.  The plot within The Towers of Midnight with Gawyn getting to the root of his problems with Rand and Egwene were based in complete jealousy.  That struck a very sour chord within me.  I felt like Gawyn would not feel that way since from childhood he was groomed to be the second to a flippin' queen.  How, and why, did he not understand chains of command?  His jealousy of Rand because Rand was  the Dragon Reborn? (And his insistence on believing Rand killed Morgase was silly too)

 

It seemed to me that Sanderson turned Gawyn from misguided to a lazy interpretation of the "nice guy" archetype.  He seemed eternally frustrated that he wasn't the main character in everyone else's life, especially Egwene's.  As someone who grew up in a royal castle, he was surely trained in understanding power dynamics, politics, and how to maneuver complex situations.  Instead, he whined, moaned, stole, and hid from others.  Then his "epiphany" at the end of the 13th book was just senseless.

 

And not to beat a dead horse, but I really think Sanderson didn't like Min.  Her participation in the books that he wrote was rather miniscule.  I've reread his books over and over looking for tone in any chapter that has Min in it. (Why yes, I really like her character!) The conclusion I have come to is that most of the last 4 books' chapters with Min in them were written by Jordan, not Sanderson.  The ones that he did write for her differ greatly in tone. (Just like how he wrote Mat so differently from how Jordan did)

You missed the point with Gawyn.  His issue was it wasn't fair a simple sheep herder should be the Dragon Reborn.   With the power to raise or take down kings and such.  He thought it was something a prince or noble person should be doing not some commoner.  He was a prince, and like most the nobles you see in the series he has the belief that somehow that makes him better then the commoners.  Why is it hard to understand someone such as a noble might resent some sheep farmer suddenly being raised above them?

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It is not hard to understand,  it just makes him hard to like and kind of useless to the story.  I mean his sister was also a spoiled noble (and I didn't much like her), but she at least committed to fighting for what she believed in (even if not always wisely) instead of sitting around feeling sorry for herself.

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On 2/23/2020 at 10:44 PM, Sabio said:

You missed the point with Gawyn.  His issue was it wasn't fair a simple sheep herder should be the Dragon Reborn.   With the power to raise or take down kings and such.  He thought it was something a prince or noble person should be doing not some commoner.  He was a prince, and like most the nobles you see in the series he has the belief that somehow that makes him better then the commoners.  Why is it hard to understand someone such as a noble might resent some sheep farmer suddenly being raised above them?

You know, that's a really good point.  I didn't consider that Gawyn was classist.  However, I do think he was able to examine that ignoble thought, especially right before he returned to Egwene.  I think a lot of this was that they didn't know what to do with the romance after a while.  The guy wallowed in a village for soooo many books.

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Elayne's crush on Thom wasn't quite a romance but it was super creepy.  Of the consummated romances, Egwene-Gwayn was the worst. Moraine and Thom the most inexplicable.  Elayne gets a second mention as by far the worst and least believable of Rand's three loves. 

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On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:37 PM, haycraftd said:

I still don't get how Lan/Nynaeve happened.  It was a sweet relationship, though, develops, and both were very complex people. 

 

This comes up quite a bit but if you put yourself in the minds of both characters and what they say about one another it is clearer.

 

Lan had relationships before, and with attractive women as well. But if you hear how he describes Nynaeve he is often saying she is like a lioness. So he wanted a woman who combined this with both fierceness, courage and concern for others. Nynaeve demonstrates all of these qualities in the first book, particularly when you consider she had no formal training at that point.

 

Nynaeve is a little bit more complex and I think here the tendency of many POV characters to never think about their pasts is an hinderance.  To my knowledge for example Nynaeve never once thinks of her parents in any of her POV chapters. What we do know though is that her father often took her out into the woods to teach her how to track and that she seems to have had a very close relationship with him before being orphaned in her teens. On top of this she is extremely strong willed and probably realises that she needs a strong man to stand up to her. Add these things together and her instant attraction to one of the strongest male characters and one old enough to be her father very much makes sense. Notice how her first thoughts is how she can impress Lan with her tracking skills, as she once would have tried to impress her father.

 

I think you really need to read those Nynaeve EOTW chapters again to understand this is perhaps the relationship most based on physiological factors. Rather than just instant attraction, or the pattern willed their relationship.   

Edited by Jaglover
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  • 8 months later...

Possible SPOILER

 

 

Rand and his harem never made sense to me. The only relationship that made sense was with Min. He barely knew Elayne, and with him 'gone' will these three women never have another relationship? Will they be single the rest of their lives?

 

Hated that Mat wound up with such a horrible person. 

 

Perrin-Faile and Nyn-Lan seemed the most believable. They actually spent time together. RJ wasn't very good at writing romances.

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On 11/21/2020 at 5:09 PM, nynaeve's braid said:

Perrin-Faile and Nyn-Lan seemed the most believable. They actually spent time together. RJ wasn't very good at writing romances.

 

Perrin-Faile is a good romance arc. I like it.

 

Nynaeve-Lan is not - mostly because we don't ever really experience them falling for one another. It's just sort of "oh yeah, and now they are in love". Hoping the show does a better job of this.

 

Worst romance is Egwene-Gawyn. Hands down.

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  • 1 month later...

I was more amused than offended by Nynaeve and Lan. Min and Rand was "fated" which generally means "contrived for the sake of the plot" - however, Robert Jordan had the skill to turn that into a real relationship between two people. I got sick of the Egwene - Galad - Gawyn triangle, and it got worse imho, when it got trimmed down to Egwene and Gawyn. Egwene getting trapped in Gawyn's dream time and again was not the same as real character and relationship building. Mat and Tuon was the obverse of Min and Rand - "fated", but not enough done to draw it out of the "contrived" basket. Mat was a real person - I felt Tuon was more of a cardboard cutout - quick, what are the usual characteristics of a dictator-in-training, so i can complete this assignment-sort of thing. Thom and Moiraine should have been done a lot better - that is one that might have worked in real life if they had talked a lot more, and it would've been a lot more believable if we had seen the initial contact between the two as holding some potential for development - instead, they are diametrically opposed, and we never see any contacts that might indicate they see beyond that initial hostility, except for that one meeting in the Stone when they take each other's measure - and that is all. FWVLIW

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  • 3 weeks later...

Personally, I think the worst romance is not the siuan-byrne, not the egwene-gawyn, but the morgase-tallanvor. It kinda came out of nowhere and is weird that morgase is falling for someone half her age. Morgase was irrelevent nt in book four, so I don't get why they keep using her, even after reading all of the books. It doesn't develop the plot and is just flat out weird. While there is some logical develoment, it doesn't advance the story.

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