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MasterAblar

The Black Tower (Full Spoilers)

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This thread is for discussion on the Black Tower. That means the events that happened there, it's current situation, it's future, ect... If you wish to talk about how you think Androl usurped Logain, or Logain did nothing during the Last Battle, take it to the appropriate threads.

Edited by Master Ablar

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Androl was just padding good padding but still not needed, Logain did not need Androl to exist and only BS made a need to have Androl in the books, got to pad of the books to waste readers cash  

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Androl was just padding good padding but still not needed, Logain did not need Androl to exist and only BS made a need to have Androl in the books, got to pad of the books to waste readers cash  

 

Please see what the mod posted in his Op of this thread.

 

  :cool:

 

 

As for the Black Tower, I believe that I would have preferred for the events inside the Black Tower to have been included in either TGS, or TOM. 

 

Another small gripe which I have about the Black Tower is that even when RJ was still writing the books, we did not get many scenes actually inside the Black Tower causing me to care very much, one way or the other, about the asha'man who were living and training there. The vast majority of scenes involving asha'man were outside of the Black Tower and were with those whom were helping either Perrin or Rand. 

 

In AMOL, I did like the scenes in the Black Tower, and it was great that I finally got to see how a 13 x 13 turning of a channeller was done. I thought it was very cool that Logain was strong enough to never be turned, despite everything that was done to him.

 

The fight scenes inside the Black Tower was interesting, and I loved the unique use of gateways which caused Taim's people to kill each other with the One Power. 

 

 

I was uncertain about what the future of the Black Tower. But then, I was glad that Logain managed to resist temptation and work with his men to save the children. 

When Logain told the parents, "The Black Tower protects," and the people there responded favorably without fear towards the group of Asha'man, then I knew that RJ intended for the Black Tower to become and remain a popular force for the Light in the future on into the Fourth Age.

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I think the first order of business for Logain and co now that the LB is over is to search for the hundreds of AM who disappeared into thin air when the battle raged. Perhaps they can join hands with the WO as they will be on a similar search for thousands of WO's who disappeared too!!

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I think the first order of business for Logain and co now that the LB is over is to search for the hundreds of AM who disappeared into thin air when the battle raged. Perhaps they can join hands with the WO as they will be on a similar search for thousands of WO's who disappeared too!!

Whoah...good call xxx.

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I think the first order of business for Logain and co now that the LB is over is to search for the hundreds of AM who disappeared into thin air when the battle raged. Perhaps they can join hands with the WO as they will be on a similar search for thousands of WO's who disappeared too!!

Whoah...good call xxx.

 

hahahahaha,   good point there.  :biggrin:

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As to the future, it does seem like no matter what the leaders of the two Towers may wish, they're inevitably bound to each other. There's a good number of Aes Sedai who respect the Asha'man and their Tower, and a good number of Asha'man who respect the Aes Sedai and their Tower. Plus, they fought together in the greatest channeling battle of the Age, and though never directly, worked together to break the Seals at the exact right time to let the DR do his thing. All said, I'm liking the idea of a Grey Tower more and more.

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As for the Black Tower, I believe that I would have preferred for the

events inside the Black Tower to have been included in either TGS, or

TOM. 

 

Another small gripe which I have about the Black Tower is that even

when RJ was still writing the books, we did not get many scenes actually inside

the Black Tower causing me to care very much, one way or the other,

about the asha'man who were living and training there. The vast majority

of scenes involving asha'man were outside of the Black Tower and were

with those whom were helping either Perrin or Rand.

Totally agree.  I think the BT was such a great concept, and then because Rand never went back there we hardly saw any of it.  I found it even more frustrating because in AMoL the scenes in the BT were really good, and very interesting.  Seems like it was such a wasted institution, never getting enough screen time during the series.  And then in the final book it kind of feels like the BT characters are playing catch up.

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Too bad we did not get to see more in depth battles at the BT.  For several books it was building up and a was a let down. 

 

Those 500 or so Asha'man along with about 2000 Wise Ones went into a mirror world.  Why? Because they felt like it. That is boss.  F Rand Al'Talk, Shit'stain and the "Last" Battle. 

 

Light Side of the Force = Dark Side of the Force. Bringing BALANCE TO THE FORCE!

 

_Yoda singing off, Hammer time baby!

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Too bad we did not get to see more in depth battles at the BT.  For several books it was building up and a was a let down. 

 

Those 500 or so Asha'man along with about 2000 Wise Ones went into a mirror world.  Why? Because they felt like it. That is boss.  F Rand Al'Talk, Shit'stain and the "Last" Battle. 

 

Light Side of the Force = Dark Side of the Force. Bringing BALANCE TO THE FORCE!

 

_Yoda singing off, Hammer time baby!

Seems a strange strategy since if the DO won, he would have won in those mirror worlds, too.

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I loved the start of the construction of the tower. At first I thought it would be great if they truly became Aes Sedai again, but Logain vs. Cadsuane would never see any real unity, unless she saw it as a way out of the Seat. Also, with traveling, there is no need to have any geographical similarity as long as they set up a traveling ground or chamber. I also hope they change the name from M'Hael to something more impressive, and not a reminder of one of the Forsaken. I hope an epilogue-like blurb will be included in the encyclopedia, though only if RJ left something in his notes about its future.

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The only reason in the near future I can think of to encourage the BT to move, is that it's going to leave Andor extremely powerful.  During the LB Logain went to Elayne first, because out of the 4 battlefronts his loyalty and obligation went to her.  Couple this with the hundred(s?) of Kin in Andor and the thousands scattered around that may head to Andor once they know they'll be welcomed and that leaves Andor the largest country, allied with a lot of other countries and with the loyalty of thousands of Channelers. 

 

Cads is savvy enough to realise this is a problem, and will likely work to encourage the Channelers loyalty (both male and female) away from Andor and towards the WT (to join their 'overview' role).

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rand founded the black tower because it was a necessity.

the powerful white tower ran unchecked for 3000 years and a counterbalance was needed.

the concept of a bt was admirable,but the execution of it on the other hand was bad,mainly

because of two reasons:

the man in charge of the bt was untrustable and his boss(rand) was never there.

let me quote a few words rand said to aviendha in a memory of light,they fit perfectly:

"problems were magnified through inattention..." how very true.

so instead of a formidable auxiliary force to aid him in the last battle,rand got a shadowspawn

factory in his own backyard.

ok,enough history,back to the present.

the story arc for the bt in a memory of light is to put it mildly...problematic.

perrin with the help of lanfear learned about the 13+13 operation in the bt,and also managed

to retrieve the dreamspike.

the next logical step for him was to report back to rand and urge him to raid the bt,after all

rand has a considerable "fresh" firepower at his disposal e.g. nynaeve,aviendha,alivia etc.

so what does our tar genius do?he does completely nothing!!!!

instead we got an absurd conversation between cadsuane and rand:

cadsuane:"by the way my dear rand,i am happy to inform you that your men at the bt freed themselves"

rand:"really???cool.now my calendar is wide open,and we can go to shayol ghul" unbelievable.

later when lyrelle,myrelle,shmyrelle and the others entered the liberated bt,the centre stage was ready

for brandol sandersol pet project androl and his new sidekick pevara to initiate their james bond  antics.

 

on a side note,the lack of proper communication between our heroes through out the entire wheel of time

series is astonishing.

Edited by jack of shadows

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The only reason in the near future I can think of to encourage the BT to move, is that it's going to leave Andor extremely powerful.  During the LB Logain went to Elayne first, because out of the 4 battlefronts his loyalty and obligation went to her.  Couple this with the hundred(s?) of Kin in Andor and the thousands scattered around that may head to Andor once they know they'll be welcomed and that leaves Andor the largest country, allied with a lot of other countries and with the loyalty of thousands of Channelers. 

 

Cads is savvy enough to realise this is a problem, and will likely work to encourage the Channelers loyalty (both male and female) away from Andor and towards the WT (to join their 'overview' role).

 

I'm pretty sure Logain went to Elayne first because it was the most important battlefield with the most soldiers involved, not to mention the only one that could be salvaged at that point. I think it was made pretty clear in the books that the Asha'man were loyal only to the BT, regardless of the fact that they were in Andor. I doubt Logain is any different from the rest of them.

 

And we know from Brandon that the Asha'man and the Aes Sedai remain seperate, and that the Asha'man are not just male Aes Sedai.

 

As to the future, it does seem like no matter what the leaders of the two Towers may wish, they're inevitably bound to each other. There's a good number of Aes Sedai who respect the Asha'man and their Tower, and a good number of Asha'man who respect the Aes Sedai and their Tower. Plus, they fought together in the greatest channeling battle of the Age, and though never directly, worked together to break the Seals at the exact right time to let the DR do his thing. All said, I'm liking the idea of a Grey Tower more and more.

 

 

I can definitely see a Grey Tower scenario happening. It's inevitable that individual Asha'man and Aes Sedai will be drawn to one another, and they're likely to be supporters of greater cooperation between the Towers. While we know they will remain seperate as Asha'man and Aes Sedai, I do think that eventually they could end up under one roof.

Edited by Master Ablar

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I don't think they will end up physically under one roof. Moving the men into the White Tower would be difficult, logistically, because the WT has 3000 years of tradition-- they would have to go through a very major renovation, and with the WT expected to return to its former glory in numbers, it would not be big enough. 

 

The only scenario where I see them physically going under one roof is if the White Tower were destroyed, perhaps by Seanchan invasion, and they formed an anti-Seanchan alliance with the BT and joined forces.

 

I DO think that they will enter an era of close cooperation... just they will utilize traveling and remain their own separate entities, in their current locations.

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For the reference: BS said "The asha'man are NOT male Aes Sedai. That said, a united male/female Aes Sedai will come again someday". 

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I don't think they will end up physically under one roof. Moving the men into the White Tower would be difficult, logistically, because the WT has 3000 years of tradition-- they would have to go through a very major renovation, and with the WT expected to return to its former glory in numbers, it would not be big enough.

 

You're forgetting about the work already done on Elaida's palace right next door to the WT.

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I don't think they will end up physically under one roof. Moving the men into the White Tower would be difficult, logistically, because the WT has 3000 years of tradition-- they would have to go through a very major renovation, and with the WT expected to return to its former glory in numbers, it would not be big enough.

You're forgetting about the work already done on Elaida's palace right next door to the WT.

From my point of view its not the building thats the problem its the fact that the Red Ajah is still around, and its not like they are going to change their minds once they find out what Taim did to Prevara's group. 

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On the contrary, I think the Red's have been set up to find their new purpose in the future and will perhaps work more closely with the men than any other group.

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A palace is not the same as a tower... no way it would be big enough for long-term use. And with Tar Valon's history as being the White Tower's city, I don't see Logain ever willing to relocate there anyways. There would be no point in relocating either tower unless one were destroyed, since traveling makes the need obsolete.

 

I imagine there will be a lot of examples of Androl and Pevera though, tying the towers very tightly together ideologically, though it will probably be a gradual transition, maybe not really fully realizing itself for a generation or two to give stigmas a chance to reinvent themselves.

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A palace is not the same as a tower... no way it would be big enough for long-term use. And with Tar Valon's history as being the White Tower's city, I don't see Logain ever willing to relocate there anyways. There would be no point in relocating either tower unless one were destroyed, since traveling makes the need obsolete.

 

Go back and read the descriptions of the building. Don't forget it was supposed to be even taller than the WT. I don't think it will happen soon but recall the references from the 4th Age to "Great Arvalon". It makes the most sense actually.

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I'll buy that explanation if it is stated in the encyclopedia-- I think if that is the case, it is likely to be in there. If not... still plausible, but I still think it is more likely to end up being an extension of the WT, or related to non-AS female channelers.

 

 

Somewhat unrelated, but I think it would be interesting if some men didn't want to become Asha'man and tried to join the WT as male Aes Sedai. It would create some interesting problems, and though don't think it will happen (just a random muse), that is not explicitly shot down by Brandon saying that hte Asha'man will remain separate. 

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On the contrary, I think the Red's have been set up to find their new purpose in the future and will perhaps work more closely with the men than any other group.

The group that was sent to do that got turned to the dark side, so Pervara is the only Red that would want to do that. It takes more than one Aes Sedai to change the way the Red Ajah thinks.

Edited by Charred Knight

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The Reds entire reason for existing is gone Charred, they must find a new purpose and this fits. Further Pevara was not the only Red to work with male channelers at TG. Would be an interesting question for Brandon.

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She still has some significant influence though, but even more, she has common sense on her side. The only thing for certain is that the Reds have to find a new purpose now that Gentling is unnecessary and reversible. The ajah will wither and die without an important purpose, and this provides them with an easy out.

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