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Barid Bel Medar

The Travelling People (Full Spoilers)

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While we only got one PoV with anything to do with Tinkers, their fate post-aMoL is most interesting and worth a look at. 

 

What will the Tinkers - who disdain fighting and anyone who fights - think about the Last Battle. Will their opinions change like Raen's, and how will this affect their society and customs? 

 

Before anyone has to point it out, I'll state in the first post that no, the Tinkers will never find "the Song". They would not recognize the Talent if they saw it. It has been confirmed by Brandon in his Tor Chat interview. 


However, that doesn't mean they will stop looking. But how long will they continue to look before they give up and it becomes a myth? 

 

Also, how will the Aiel interact with the them? Will they share their history, now it is out in the open, and Aviendha's vision has shown them that there is not as much honour in being born for war than they previously believed?

 

Discuss anything any everything related to the Tinkers.

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I think the Way of the Leaf will be modified a bit over time to be slightly more lenient, but not enough to really make a huge change. They will start to appreciate "peace makers," even if they would shun any of their members who might join such groups. They will disavow any violence at all, but like Raen, will start to be thankful to those who use force to protect the innocent. I could also see a continued medic type role in some cases, perhaps in exchange for safety or in lieu of taxes if they settle, etc. 

 

As for the Song, there was one moment when I was hopeful during a scene with Rand, but his fate makes that possibility doubtful. I still could see the Song being rediscovered depending on what happens with the Ogier. All it might take to start down that path is for a Tinker to be present while an Ogier sings. I doubt it will happen, but I would still love to see a Tinker witness an Ogier sing, with Rand present and able to help provide the half of the duet belonging to the human counterpart.

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I may be alone in this - but I think the Tinkers way of life has shifted as much as the Aiels over the course of the books.  At the end of ToM and again in MoL it's remarked on how many are settling down and forming villages within Seanchan lands.  There are clearly a few that retain the desire to travel and feel the need to recover the 'Song' but I think they'll be increasingly in the minority. 

 

I also can't see anything happening in the next few years that will change their stance on fighting significantly or on those who fight, considering they've gone through the Last Battle without any significant change of heart, I know there was some, but its eemed small to me.

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As for the Song, there was one moment when I was hopeful during a scene with Rand, but his fate makes that possibility doubtful. I still could see the Song being rediscovered depending on what happens with the Ogier. All it might take to start down that path is for a Tinker to be present while an Ogier sings. I doubt it will happen, but I would still love to see a Tinker witness an Ogier sing, with Rand present and able to help provide the half of the duet belonging to the human counterpart.

So as Barid said there seems to be a bit of a misconception on this topic. We have already been told by RJ that there is no "song". That is a myth, a memory if you will of the songs of growing that has been twisted into the concept of one mystical song. There is the talent of "singing" which could be rediscovered however. As for the claim above about how to find it, we know per Brandon it is incorrect.

Brandon

Rand doesn’t know the Song and the Tinkers wouldn’t accept anything he taught them anyhow.

Robert Jordan specifically noted that the Tinkers would not find their Song by the end of the series and that the Ogier song of growing is not the Tinkers’ Song. The Song is “a much more deep and philosophical concept, perhaps unattainable.”

Edited by Suttree

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You know, "The song" was something I was always had in the back of my find since first reading The Eye of the World.  I really strongly felt that there would be a scene in MoL with the tinkers and Perrin.  Tinkers where always a big part of his story arch since the start.  The short POV we got with Raen and his wife really left me wanting more.

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I found the entire scene pointless.  I mean, Raen's wife is actually arguing the life under the Shadow would be ok?  W.T.F.? 


Also, what about Min's viewing of Perrin and a song?  (I may be wrong about this, but I thought there was one where she sawing singing and flowers blooming.)  I always thought it had to do with The Song.  Do we ever get any closure on this?

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Also, what about Min's viewing of Perrin and a song?  (I may be wrong

about this, but I thought there was one where she sawing singing and

flowers blooming.)  I always thought it had to do with The Song.  Do we

ever get any closure on this?

I don't think there was a song in the viewing, just Perrin surrounded by trees and flowers blooming.  Think this referred to his epiphany at his family's graves in the apple orchard where he got his will to fight.

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I found the entire scene pointless.  I mean, Raen's wife is actually arguing the life under the Shadow would be ok?  W.T.F.? 

 

Also, what about Min's viewing of Perrin and a song?  (I may be wrong about this, but I thought there was one where she sawing singing and flowers blooming.)  I always thought it had to do with The Song.  Do we ever get any closure on this?

 

I think this foreshadows the major conflict going forward with the Tinkers settling in Seanchan lands: do we put up with the people who keep us safe but occasionally steal young women, or do we go back to facing random violence?  I think the bulk will choose the latter--Tinkers are libertarian to the core--but there will be a schism.

 

I believe it was mentioned that some of the Aiel who threw down there spears sought to join with the Tinkers.  I would have loved to see that interaction.  I wonder how it will change the Tinkers going forward.

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I think a lot of this depends on the peace of the Dragon. If the Randland countries and the Seanchan on this side of the ocean maintain peace for at least 50 years, the Tinkers may disappear. OR, they may take on a new importance. It's entirely possible that a long enough peace would make the Way of the Leaf fashionable and people would come to learn from the Tinkers. Much like Faile's people have decided to emulate the Aiel. 

 

It's also very possible that the Tinkers who seem to have settled in Seanchan controlled lands will end up changing Seanchan ways. As the seeds planted already undermine Seanchan power by the reality that the Empire has enslaved women and not animals and that these enslaved women are the glue holding the Empire together, people may turn to less violent ways of life.... the Tinkers. 

 

Just a couple of thoughts.

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I found the entire scene pointless.  I mean, Raen's wife is actually arguing the life under the Shadow would be ok?  W.T.F.? 

 

Also, what about Min's viewing of Perrin and a song?  (I may be wrong about this, but I thought there was one where she sawing singing and flowers blooming.)  I always thought it had to do with The Song.  Do we ever get any closure on this?

 

 

 

Also, what about Min's viewing of Perrin and a song?  (I may be wrong

about this, but I thought there was one where she sawing singing and

flowers blooming.)  I always thought it had to do with The Song.  Do we

ever get any closure on this?

I don't think there was a song in the viewing, just Perrin surrounded by trees and flowers blooming.  Think this referred to his epiphany at his family's graves in the apple orchard where he got his will to fight.

 

 

If I remember correctly, the viewing was of flowering and budding plants. But the song was 'High Chant' and Leane (spelling?) first said it upon meeting him in Shienar in book 2. Books 1-3 (especially 2) had a ton of foreshadowing. 

 

And, no, we get absolutely no closure with this. What's interesting is that Rand seems to have the talent.

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One last thought, as the Wheel brings everything that was back around eventually, the fact that the Aiel are the people who have been contracted to keep the peace will probably end up with them taking The Way of the Leaf up again at some point. Kinda like they're not to touch a sword and they take up the spear, now they're to keep the peace and will take up The Way of the Leaf. This could take millennia. 

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The song is dead, even if Rand taught them the words of what he knew the song would still be dead, why because when the green man died so did the last of the Nym and with out the Nym there is no song.

 

Also why would someone who follows the way of the leaf pick up arrows ?

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The song is dead, even if Rand taught them the words of what he knew the song would still be dead, why because when the green man died so did the last of the Nym and with out the Nym there is no song.

That isn't correct. There is nothing to say that a Nym is needed for the talent of "singing". Regardless Rand doesn't know the song.

Edited by Suttree

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The song is dead, even if Rand taught them the words of what he knew the song would still be dead, why because when the green man died so did the last of the Nym and with out the Nym there is no song.

That isn't correct. There is nothing to say that a Nym is needed for the talent of "singing". Regardless Rand doesn't know the song.

you mean apart from when we see back in time to see the song being sung they are at the core of it ? sorry but i think you will find I was correct 

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Title : The Shadow Rising
Chapter : The Dedicated
Jonai

Pg 433 "Each field would have its Nym, now."

Pg 434 "The Ogier began it, as was fitting, standing to sing, great bass rumbles like the earth singing. The Aiel rose, men's voices lifting in their own song, even the deepest at a higher pitch than the Ogier's. Yet the songs braided together, and Someshta took those threads and wove them into his dance, gliding across the field in swooping strides, arms wide, butterflies swirling about him, landing on his spread fingertips."

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Yes I'm very aware of that quote. Regardless a Nym is not needed for someone to have the "voice" or talent of "singing" which is what the song is. There is no single "song" that is a myth. While all three working in unison makes for optimum crop yield, that is something different entirely. A Nym in essence is a construct with the ability to utilize the OP to help things grow.

Edited by Suttree

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Yes I'm very aware of that quote. Regardless a Nym is not needed for someone to have the "voice" or talent of "singing" which is what the song is. There is no single "song" that is a myth.

so the one time we read about the song for the only time, its a myth, i think you are misunderstanding the song for singing, they are not the same thing

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Yes I'm very aware of that quote. Regardless a Nym is not needed for someone to have the "voice" or talent of "singing" which is what the song is. There is no single "song" that is a myth.

so the one time we read about the song for the only time, its a myth, i think you are misunderstanding the song for singing, they are not the same thing
Yes RJ has told us the song doesn't actually exist and I'm not misunderstanding anything.

  

Interview: Aug 27th, 1999

Melbourne Film Festival - Steven Cooper (Paraphrased)

Troy Terry

 

 

Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song from Rand's Aiel memories.

 

 

STEVEN COOPEr

 

I asked RJ about this when he was in Melbourne last week, and (amazingly) got a straight answer.

 

Robert Jordam

 

 

The Song the Tinkers are seeking is the song Rand heard in Rhuidean—or, to be exact, the memories of that song and others like it have become merged, over the years, into the concept of one mystical Song.

 

& if you had looked earlier in the thread yoou would have seen.

Brandon

Rand doesn’t know the Song and the Tinkers wouldn’t accept anything he taught them anyhow.

Robert Jordan specifically noted that the Tinkers would not find their Song by the end of the series and that the Ogier song of growing is not the Tinkers’ Song. The Song is “a much more deep and philosophical concept, perhaps unattainable.”

 

Here is some good info to read up on.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/51179-demystifying-the-song/

 

As I said the Nym can certainly enhance the process when all three groups work together but the "voice" does not dissapear because there are no Nym. That isn't how talents work.

Edited by Suttree

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Yes I'm very aware of that quote. Regardless a Nym is not needed for someone to have the "voice" or talent of "singing" which is what the song is. There is no single "song" that is a myth.

so the one time we read about the song for the only time, its a myth, i think you are misunderstanding the song for singing, they are not the same thing
Yes RJ has told us the song doesn't actually exist and I'm not misunderstanding anything.

  

>Interview: Aug 27th, 1999

Melbourne Film Festival - Steven Cooper (Paraphrased)

Troy Terry

 

 

Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song from Rand's Aiel memories.

 

 

STEVEN COOPEr

 

I asked RJ about this when he was in Melbourne last week, and (amazingly) got a straight answer.

 

Robert Jordam

 

 

The Song the Tinkers are seeking is the song Rand heard in Rhuidean—or, to be exact, the memories of that song and others like it have become merged, over the years, into the concept of one mystical Song.

 

& if you had looked earlier in the thread yoou would have seen.

Brandon

Rand doesn’t know the Song and the Tinkers wouldn’t accept anything he taught them anyhow.

Robert Jordan specifically noted that the Tinkers would not find their Song by the end of the series and that the Ogier song of growing is not the Tinkers’ Song. The Song is “a much more deep and philosophical concept, perhaps unattainable.”

 

Here is some good info to read up on.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/51179-demystifying-the-song/

 

so that just backs up what i said, the song is dead

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so that just backs up what i said, the song is dead

 

Sigh.

 

this most certainly doesn't back up what you were saying. There never was a single "song" and at first you wrongly suggested that Rand could teach them. Then you stated Nym were needed for anyone to have the "talent" continue to work. I will repeat what I added above.

 

"As I said the Nym can certainly enhance the process when all three groups work together but the "voice" does not dissapear because there are no Nym. That isn't how talents work. There is nothing to suggest that the voice would no longer work, in fact if we go by the Ogier talent we know the opposite is the case."

 

Edit: Rearranged my response.

Edited by Suttree

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so that just backs up what i said, the song is dead

 

Sigh.

 

this most certainly doesn't back up what you were saying. There never was a single "song" and at first you wrongly suggested that Rand could teach them. Then you stated Nym were needed for anyone to have the "talent" to continue to work. I will repeat what I added above.

 

"As I said the Nym can certainly enhance the process when all three groups work together but the "voice" does not dissapear because there are no Nym. That isn't how talents work. There is nothing to suggest that the voice would no longer work, in fact if we go by the Ogier talent we know the opposite is the case."

sorry that just does not hold up, the 1 time we read about the song it takes Humans, Ogier the Nym, now your logic is that the Nym are not needed while nothing written by RJ or BS supports this, its just what you think and there is nothing to hold up that in the books

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Did we ever find out why Egwene appeared in a tinkers camp after using NEED (TGS 38)?

I always thought of that camp as the one near Ebou Dar.

The fact that they appeared in TAR indicating that the Tinkers were happy to settle down there, they felt safe.

And they felt safe under the Seanchan.

A small foreshadowing that she will need to deal with the Seanchan in the future and perhaps that they are here to stay. Also a  large hint that she will have to get over her outright hatred of them and consider the pros and cons of Seanchan society dispassionately.

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so that just backs up what i said, the song is dead

 

Sigh.

 

this most certainly doesn't back up what you were saying. There never was a single "song" and at first you wrongly suggested that Rand could teach them. Then you stated Nym were needed for anyone to have the "talent" to continue to work. I will repeat what I added above.

 

"As I said the Nym can certainly enhance the process when all three groups work together but the "voice" does not dissapear because there are no Nym. That isn't how talents work. There is nothing to suggest that the voice would no longer work, in fact if we go by the Ogier talent we know the opposite is the case."

 

sorry that just does not hold up, the 1 time we read about the song it takes Humans, Ogier the Nym, now your logic is that the Nym are not needed while nothing written by RJ or BS supports this, its just what you think and there is nothing to hold up that in the books
 

Dude there is no and never was a single SONG.

 

As for support in tEotW LTT asks Ishy if he has the "voice" talent.

 

 

"Lord of the Morning," he said, "I have come for you."

 

The laughter cut off as if it had never been, and Lews Therin turned, seeming unsurprised. "Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part.

[tEotW; Prologue, Dragonmount]

We know the Ogier still have the talent which enhances growing. We know it still works for the Ogier, why on earth wouldn't it for the humans? The song never did exist except as a symbol for the Tinkers. Now the "singing" may be less effective without a Nym as I said in my first post. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the human talent wouldn't work when the ogier's still does. The Nym was a man made construct, it wasn't as if it was a natural part of the world that has gone extinct. You have already shown to be wrong about a number of your assumptions on this topic and you seem to have a misconception on this as well. Edited by Suttree

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so that just backs up what i said, the song is dead

 

Sigh.

 

this most certainly doesn't back up what you were saying. There never was a single "song" and at first you wrongly suggested that Rand could teach them. Then you stated Nym were needed for anyone to have the "talent" to continue to work. I will repeat what I added above.

 

"As I said the Nym can certainly enhance the process when all three groups work together but the "voice" does not dissapear because there are no Nym. That isn't how talents work. There is nothing to suggest that the voice would no longer work, in fact if we go by the Ogier talent we know the opposite is the case."

 

sorry that just does not hold up, the 1 time we read about the song it takes Humans, Ogier the Nym, now your logic is that the Nym are not needed while nothing written by RJ or BS supports this, its just what you think and there is nothing to hold up that in the books

 

Dude there is no and never was a single SONG.

 

As for support in tEotW LTT asks Ishy if he has the "voice" talent.

 

 

"Lord of the Morning," he said, "I have come for you."

 

The laughter cut off as if it had never been, and Lews Therin turned, seeming unsurprised. "Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part.

[tEotW; Prologue, Dragonmount]

 

We know the Ogier still have the talent which enhances growing. We know it still works for the Ogier, why on earth wouldn't it for the humans? The song never did exist except as a symbol for the Tinkers. Now the "singing" may be less effective without a Nym as I said in my first post. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the human talent wouldn't work when the ogier's still does. You have already shown to be wrong about a number of your assumptions on this topic and you seem to have a misconception on this as well.

 

well given that the Ogier's talent does not even come close to that of the Nym as per the first book gives us some clue, also as no human in the book had the talent ever again suggest that you are again wrong

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