Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Elayne's Arc (Full Spoilers)


Barid Bel Medar
 Share

Recommended Posts

But thats the problem with her and her brother, they don't learn.  Again and again they have the "I want to be a hero'" syndrom.  I mean seriously how many times did Elayne need to be rescued?  Her character to me never really evolved past the I need no help I can do anything.  She never once conidered what costs her actions might have on Rand or Brigette.  It was well my babies will be born healthy so everything will be all rigth time and again.  I just felt as the other characters grew and matured throughout the book hers never did. 

Well aftert aMoL I must say that Gawyn dindt mature at all :/ :/ 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 80
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

 

When they picked Elayne to be the leader, they hadn't split up the 4 great generals yet.  Bryne could have just as easily went with Elayne.  The White Tower has never been politically neutral.  The rest of the world recognized them as being manipulative for their own gains.  Rand certainly didn't trust them.  The White Tower breaking and the attack from the Seanchan did serve to humanize them a little bit though.

The White Tower would have made sense in a pre-Dragon Reborn world. But we just saw a big confrontation with the White Tower on one side and the Dragon Reborn on the other. The selection of Elayne may not have made sense based on her abilities, but it probably did from a political standpoint because she was closely linked with both Egwene and Rand, and powerful in her own right.

 

Seriously.  I'm not the biggest fan of Elayne's storylines, but it ABSOLUTELY made sense to have her lead the Army of Light.  Elayne had ties to every single faction on the field, could function as an intermediary between the Seanchan and the White Tower, and Rand was comfortable that she would listen to the advice of Byrne (a mentor and father figure) and Bashere (trusted b/c of Rand)--and if she listens to those two, she probably listens to Ituralde and Agelmar as well. 

 

Rand knows that he has to soften the conflict between the Dragon and the Amyrlin this time around.  Giving the White Tower the power to undermine his overall scheme by handing them full control over the Army of Light?  That could not happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

I liked Elayne's character just fine. I don't think she is especially memorable as a character. I do not like that she was made the overall commander of the forces of Light. A 18/19 year old pregnant girl making strategic war decisions just doesn't sit well with me. Not that she's a female, but that she's a young person that has no legit experience to be put in that position.

 Yep. That was very, very unbelievable. From the potrayal of the monarchs of Rand Land for the past 12 books, very few of them would have been willing to accept Elayne as their supreme commander. Not a chance in Rand Land.

 

 

Given that the Dragon Reborn is 20 (and most of those monarchs already swore fealty to him), the Amyrlin the same age as Elayne, and they were the main power players at the meeting besides Elayne herself, it's really not that strange. She didn't need to be a military genius, she was supposed to coordinate the efforts and let strategy to the great Captains.

 

 

 

I get that Elayne doesn't need to be a military genius. I see what you mean in pointing out Rand and Egwene's age. Thought to be fair Rand is the Dragon and Egwene was originally made Amyrlin b/c the rebel AS wanted someone they could control and a scapegoat if things went bad.

 

The issue here is crusty old generals and battlehardened soldiers, stubborn and headstrong foreign monarchs just step in line when her name is thrown in the hat. I just feel it happened the way it did because it was a like 'Well...shit. We can't just throw Mat in as the Head General - we need to build tension first before Mat comes in a saves the day. Who can we make the head general until Mat shows up? I guess we will have to settle on Elayne because we don't have any other major characters that fit.'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something a lot of people missed, as so very briefly described, was when Mellar took down Elayne and killed Brigitte, he also appears to have killed Morgase and used her body thrown over the horse to convince Elayne's troops that she was dead.

"Mellar kicked at Brigitte's corpse as a man rode up with a body draped across the back of his saddle. The man wore an Andoran uniform, and the facedown corpse dangled golden hair. Whoever the poor woman was, she wore a dress exactly like Elayne's. Oh no... "(Elayne thought this)

It is a wonder that Elayne was coherant after losing her warder, her mother and being threatened with having her babies cut out of her. Brandon said in an interview that Harriet wanted more sqeamish scenes and thus this one was added. So, Morgase is inferred to be one of the dead.

 

I think the body on the horse actually could have been Morgase.  Remember Ila's point-of-view where she's going through the bodies trying to find survivors: Morgase is leading those people.  And it was just a few lines, but one of the mercenaries she thinks of as cowards calls to another mercenary, "Hey Hanlon."

So Hanlon/Mellar was with Morgase before they attacked Elayne.  The opportunity to take Morgase was definitely there.

 

It would have been simple to have a line naming her as helping Elayne & Bridgitte when they were preparing to rally the Andorans to know that she lived.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Certainly possible.

 

The first thing I thought of was that Hanlon wanted to parade a dead Queen Elayne in front of the troops ASAP for effect. Take the heart out of them. Meanwhile he could have his fun with her and cut out her children at will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please- putting the Dragon's pregnant 18 year old girlfriend in charge of the Last Battle was just ridiculous. Sure she has 'ties' to lots of places, but what other monarch really 'knows' her aside from Egwene? If anything the obvious nepotism would likely undue whatever good will there could potentially be. Sure she's a fine politician, but Morgase would have been a better choice if nobody else. Just not enough real world experience. And I guess it showed given the myriad of bad decisions she allowed her commanders to make (and im not talking about micromanaging the tactical blunders they were compelled to).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please- putting the Dragon's pregnant 18 year old girlfriend in charge of the Last Battle was just ridiculous. Sure she has 'ties' to lots of places, but what other monarch really 'knows' her aside from Egwene? If anything the obvious nepotism would likely undue whatever good will there could potentially be. Sure she's a fine politician, but Morgase would have been a better choice if nobody else. Just not enough real world experience. And I guess it showed given the myriad of bad decisions she allowed her commanders to make (and im not talking about micromanaging the tactical blunders they were compelled to).

 

If not the Compulsion mistakes, then what are the mistakes to which you are referring?

 

Besides, I really don't get this complaint.  Her duties were to play a politician and allocate resources.  She was essentially Lincoln with four Grants serving under her.  Who would have been better suited to play the role?  And don't say Morgase, because the Queen who renounced her throne, destroyed her relationship with most of her allies, and was the only known leader who'd been placed under Compulsion by a Forsaken at least once already--but from Rand's perspective who knows how many others had access to her during that time--is simply a ridiculous choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something a lot of people missed, as so very briefly described, was when Mellar took down Elayne and killed Brigitte, he also appears to have killed Morgase and used her body thrown over the horse to convince Elayne's troops that she was dead.

 

"Mellar kicked at Brigitte's corpse as a man rode up with a body draped across the back of his saddle. The man wore an Andoran uniform, and the facedown corpse dangled golden hair. Whoever the poor woman was, she wore a dress exactly like Elayne's. Oh no... "(Elayne thought this)

 

It is a wonder that Elayne was coherant after losing her warder, her mother and being threatened with having her babies cut out of her. Brandon said in an interview that Harriet wanted more sqeamish scenes and thus this one was added. So, Morgase is inferred to be one of the dead.

 

I think the body on the horse actually could have been Morgase.  Remember Ila's point-of-view where she's going through the bodies trying to find survivors: Morgase is leading those people.  And it was just a few lines, but one of the mercenaries she thinks of as cowards calls to another mercenary, "Hey Hanlon."

 

So Hanlon/Mellar was with Morgase before they attacked Elayne.  The opportunity to take Morgase was definitely there.

 

It would have been simple to have a line naming her as helping Elayne & Bridgitte when they were preparing to rally the Andorans to know that she lived.

 

 

Wow, totally missed that last night.  Great catch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Please- putting the Dragon's pregnant 18 year old girlfriend in charge of the Last Battle was just ridiculous. Sure she has 'ties' to lots of places, but what other monarch really 'knows' her aside from Egwene? If anything the obvious nepotism would likely undue whatever good will there could potentially be. Sure she's a fine politician, but Morgase would have been a better choice if nobody else. Just not enough real world experience. And I guess it showed given the myriad of bad decisions she allowed her commanders to make (and im not talking about micromanaging the tactical blunders they were compelled to).

 

If not the Compulsion mistakes, then what are the mistakes to which you are referring?

 

Besides, I really don't get this complaint.  Her duties were to play a politician and allocate resources.  She was essentially Lincoln with four Grants serving under her.  Who would have been better suited to play the role?  And don't say Morgase, because the Queen who renounced her throne, destroyed her relationship with most of her allies, and was the only known leader who'd been placed under Compulsion by a Forsaken at least once already--but from Rand's perspective who knows how many others had access to her during that time--is simply a ridiculous choice.

 

Sending 300 channelers to Kandor, keeping several hundred in Andor cooling the heels, and sending 3 to Lan probably qualifies as a colossal blunder. Agreeing to a (sound) strategy of winning quickly and decisively at Caemlyn with the bulk of the forces to close the waygate... and then allowing a strategy that had her army sitting in a forest for a week and then running around the continent... while never actually considering blowing up the waygate. Devoting a huge portion of your channelers to healing the wounded and moving them back and forth... which guaranteed more killed and wounded in the long run. Not using waygates to move your armies around effectively (building bridges?).

 

There's lots of discussion in the Battles thread. Elayne bears at least some responsibility for each of them. I guess you could argue she left it to her more experienced commanders to make these decisions but that just proves the point that someone more experienced should have seen the glaring flaws.

 

And i just threw out Morgase as a name other rulers would be more likely to respect (it wasnt common knowledge she was compelled). If Darlin was given the job would the entire alliance have collapsed? Or using one of the Captains as the top commander (Iteralde?). Obviously Rand didnt consider the issue of having dreams tampered with or being compelled (even Elayne could have been flat out compelled). 

Edited by mbuehner
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fair enough on the battle issues.  I hadn't spent any time in the battle thread b/c I just finished reading last night.  I'm not sure that another king/queen would be better suited to overrule the combined wisdom of the four great generals, but you seem to think so. 

 

And my point about Elayne is that none of the other candidates would've held enough sway to oversee the White Tower or the Seanchan.  Certainly each of the four generals was needed at the four battlefronts, so they weren't an option.  Mat wasn't really a widely-known entity at that point.  And the White Tower has treated regional monarchs as their puppets for three millenia.  Now we're supposed to believe that they'll submit to Darlin's leadership?  Or Tenobia?  But hey, agree to disagree on that point.  The only real argument IMO would be to put Lan as CiC of the Army of Light, but that would be a ridiculous waste of his character (from a literary standpoint). 

 

Oh and the Morgase/Compulsion statement from my earlier post wasn't referring to the idea of her Compulsion being widely-known... it was that people (most importantly, Rand) were aware that she had been Compelled by a Forsaken.  They knew that the effects had not been removed, so her mind couldn't be trusted.  They also couldn't be sure that no other Forsaken had access to her at that time.  Sure, anyone else could've been Compelled (and frankly, it's nuts that Rand/LTT didn't think about that possibility), but they certainly couldn't use the one person they knew had been Compelled.

Edited by Richmond
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Elayne was put in charge becuase as I believe t was said i nthe book Andor was at that moment the strongest nation.  The 4 great generals were suppose to be running the battles, I doubt 4 people in 4 different locations were running every decision by her.  As leader it was her job to make sure the coalition stayed together she as more of a diplomat in all this then a general.  In theory Gwayn should of run any war concenring Andor as Elaynes First Prince but he refused the job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me it does make sense to choose Elayne as the leader of the Army of Light. Who else would have been put charge?

 

Seanchans, Aiels and Rand big no for obvious reasons. WT wouldn't have been a wise decicision because they needed the Tuon's help (+ there was conflict between Egwene and Rand). Darlin wouldn't have accepted by the Illians and vica versa. Mat was at point virtually unkown entity. Same is true for Perrin in a lesser extent + his background wasn't clear due to the Two Rivers's legal position.

 

Thus, the only viable options were the Bordenlander monarches and Elayne (without counting the small countries). Here I would mention that clearly there are some tensions between the northern and southern contries in general. And it is questionable that the big countries from south would have accepted the leadership of a king or Queen of a less influental northern country.

In contrast Elayne is the queen of the largest and strongest "empire" in Randland (Andor + Cairhien). Furthermore she had very close and personal links for the two most important players (Rand and Egwene) and she is one of the strongest AS as well.  Since she won a succession war in Andor everybody thought that she were capable and had some experience about the wars (I don't think others really knew about her blunders). And the trust is very important in these situations.

 

Finally I would like to point out that she was elected to be rather a political leader, a diplomat than a general. For that purpose they have the Great Captains and numerous other military advisers.

 

 

mbuehner,

 

the strategy of both the Light and Shadow was ridiculous. Demandred, the genius, also broke basic and fundamental military rules. Unfortunately the war was plot-driven, not in the other direction. Therefore I wouldn't blame anyone for these mistakes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the strategy of both the Light and Shadow was ridiculous. Demandred, the genius, also broke basic and fundamental military rules. Unfortunately the war was plot-driven, not in the other direction. Therefore I wouldn't blame anyone for these mistakes.

What basic and fundamental rules were broken?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

the strategy of both the Light and Shadow was ridiculous. Demandred, the genius, also broke basic and fundamental military rules. Unfortunately the war was plot-driven, not in the other direction. Therefore I wouldn't blame anyone for these mistakes.

What basic and fundamental rules were broken?

 

- Never allow for your enemies to choose the battlefield.

- It isn't a good move to engage to a frontal battle when your enemies are in a relatively strong position and/or such terrain which suits for them.

 

Demandred could have easily forced Mat to abandon Merrilor. Mat was a desperate situation, he badly needed the battle at Merrillor. It was the only way to save Randland from the Trolloc (Myrdraal etc.) and have a chance for a victory. In contrast, Demandred didn't need to engage to a battle at Merrilor to win the campaign, he has at least a dozen better option (see next point as well). What could have Mat done if Demandred hadn't chosen to fight with the Army of Light there? What about to send a strong force to south to capture/destroy the big cities and leave a small (defensive) force there to make Mat busy? It could also be a bluff to deceive Mat about his true intentions as well. What about simply maneuver Mat's troops out from Merrilor?  etc.

 

 

-as for example Liddel Hart said if you are central position between two armies you should always fight with the weaker one first.

 

If I were Demandred I would have destroyed Ituralde's army first. He had more than enough troops for it. Furthermore it was in the key place of the Last Battle as Demandred knew it. In this case the Light  would have certainly lost.

 

etc. etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some interesting points, I'll have to think on this before writing a more detailed response.

 

My initial thought is, what's the alternative?

 

Egwene's forces and Elayne's forces effectively broke the Trolloc armies they fought - not destroyed b/c there were still tens of thousands of Shadowspawn. Egwene was forced to retreat only when Demandred appeared with the Sharans.

 

We have the armies of light that are well led with battle hardened soldiers, has immense fire power (male and female channellers and Aludra's munitions), and FAR more mobile than Demandreds forces. Sure, Demandred can travel with the Sharans, but he cannot send Shadowspawn through gateways.

 

Demandred could have split his force, sent the Sharans to SG and Trollocs to ramapage through the southlands...but what would that have served? Mat would have left an expeditionary force in the southlands to slash and burn, just as Lan did in Shienar, and leave the Trollocs without any sustenance. Two weeks of that, and the Shadowspawn would have done themselves in. The Forces of Light would have followed the Sharans north to SG and engaged them. The Sharans alone were not enough to fight the Forces of Light, even with the Shadowspawn that would have been present at SG. The Forces of Light would have won, and then have the option of engaging the southern Shadowspawn armies at will.

 

**If the Shadowspawn from the south would travel overland from the FoM to SG, they would still arrive exhausted and starving.

 

Demandred did pick his battlefield, and turned blitzed the forces of light to take the highground. Mat used this to pin him down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Demandred was mad. Most act of the choosen can be explain by this way - it is the only reason Rand could survive the first 4-5 books.

 

Why didn't use the shadow every gateway? The light's forces wouldn't stay together. Instead of a big battle, the whole world should have been burn to the ground.

 

Ituralde is a much better choice to lead every battlefield. Elayne was a bad one.

Edited by Elathan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some interesting points, I'll have to think on this before writing a more detailed response.

 

My initial thought is, what's the alternative?

 

Egwene's forces and Elayne's forces effectively broke the Trolloc armies they fought - not destroyed b/c there were still tens of thousands of Shadowspawn. Egwene was forced to retreat only when Demandred appeared with the Sharans.

 

We have the armies of light that are well led with battle hardened soldiers, has immense fire power (male and female channellers and Aludra's munitions), and FAR more mobile than Demandreds forces. Sure, Demandred can travel with the Sharans, but he cannot send Shadowspawn through gateways.

 

Demandred could have split his force, sent the Sharans to SG and Trollocs to ramapage through the southlands...but what would that have served? Mat would have left an expeditionary force in the southlands to slash and burn, just as Lan did in Shienar, and leave the Trollocs without any sustenance. Two weeks of that, and the Shadowspawn would have done themselves in. The Forces of Light would have followed the Sharans north to SG and engaged them. The Sharans alone were not enough to fight the Forces of Light, even with the Shadowspawn that would have been present at SG. The Forces of Light would have won, and then have the option of engaging the southern Shadowspawn armies at will.

 

**If the Shadowspawn from the south would travel overland from the FoM to SG, they would still arrive exhausted and starving.

 

Demandred did pick his battlefield, and turned blitzed the forces of light to take the highground. Mat used this to pin him down.

 

Elayne's forces only won because of the intervention of BT. It was a true pyrrhic victory against a big, but not very disciplined army (compared especially with the Sharans).

Egwene (Gareth) was outgeneraled by Demandred, who laid a trap for the WT. So the initial victory meant nothing.

 

"We have the armies of light that are well led with battle hardened soldiers, has immense fire power (male and female channellers and Aludra's munitions), and FAR more mobile than Demandreds forces."

 

They lost at least half of their forces and the "immense fire power" was heavily downgraded in the last book. Their mobility wasn't really used either. Otherwise LB would have been much easier for the Light.

 

Demandred could have destroyed the army at the SG before even Mat (or Gareth in the earlier phase) realised what were happening. Like he did in Kandor.

Furthermore I am not sure that the Light could have afforded to burn the southland. And I didn't say that this army should only contain Trollocs. Nevertheless you are right, it isn't the best strategy. There are several other good moves too draw out Mat's army from its position.

 

"Demandred could have split his force, sent the Sharans to SG and Trollocs to ramapage through the southlands"

 

I didnt say it, it would certainly be a failing strategy. Either you need to deceive the Armies of the Light or leave a big enough army (with enough Dreadlords, Taim??) for them to fight with. Most probably both as I mentioned earlier.

 

The battlefield was clearly picked by Mat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there is such a thing as a pyrrhic battle in this situation. It was all or nothing, no holding anything back.<br /><br />I wish we knew more about the Sharans. Was it ever mentioned how large the Sharan was? I read through pretty fast, so if a relative size was mentioned I missed it. I would speculate that it's roughly the same size as the Seanchan, perhaps smaller. Shara has been in a civil war and chaos for the past 18 months or so - not to mention further fighting and death under Demandred's consolidation effort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*double post.

 

Actually, a lot of stuff from my previous post was cut out for some reason and there are formatting errors. what the heck. I don't feel like typing it again.

Edited by MountaineerWV
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, as Sanderson himself said, he's not very good with battles. I agree with the points made about the battle. All we have to prove Demandred to be a good general is a couple lines here and there to state it.

But, why the hell would all the forces of the Shadow compromise themselves to a fair fight at Merrilor's Field?? Why not just swarm the world with out of control trollocs (they had the numbers) in a way that it would be impossible for the armies of the light to control them? Why not just defend Shayol Gull, and let the time go by whitout worry while the Dark One breaks free? Giving the light the chance to fight makes no sense.

 

 

Also, the decission to choose Elayne as leader of the armies... I mean, she's one of my favorite characters and I think BS fixed her up pretty good in this book (he made her be brat in ToM and not appear at all in TGS, even though Robert Jordan obviously thought of her as a main character), but seriously, pick her as commander when shes like 20 years old and 6 months pregnant, no matter how strong she is...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Some interesting points, I'll have to think on this before writing a more detailed response.

 

My initial thought is, what's the alternative?

 

Egwene's forces and Elayne's forces effectively broke the Trolloc armies they fought - not destroyed b/c there were still tens of thousands of Shadowspawn. Egwene was forced to retreat only when Demandred appeared with the Sharans.

 

We have the armies of light that are well led with battle hardened soldiers, has immense fire power (male and female channellers and Aludra's munitions), and FAR more mobile than Demandreds forces. Sure, Demandred can travel with the Sharans, but he cannot send Shadowspawn through gateways.

 

Demandred could have split his force, sent the Sharans to SG and Trollocs to ramapage through the southlands...but what would that have served? Mat would have left an expeditionary force in the southlands to slash and burn, just as Lan did in Shienar, and leave the Trollocs without any sustenance. Two weeks of that, and the Shadowspawn would have done themselves in. The Forces of Light would have followed the Sharans north to SG and engaged them. The Sharans alone were not enough to fight the Forces of Light, even with the Shadowspawn that would have been present at SG. The Forces of Light would have won, and then have the option of engaging the southern Shadowspawn armies at will.

 

**If the Shadowspawn from the south would travel overland from the FoM to SG, they would still arrive exhausted and starving.

 

Demandred did pick his battlefield, and turned blitzed the forces of light to take the highground. Mat used this to pin him down.

 

Elayne's forces only won because of the intervention of BT. It was a true pyrrhic victory against a big, but not very disciplined army (compared especially with the Sharans).

Egwene (Gareth) was outgeneraled by Demandred, who laid a trap for the WT. So the initial victory meant nothing.

 

"We have the armies of light that are well led with battle hardened soldiers, has immense fire power (male and female channellers and Aludra's munitions), and FAR more mobile than Demandreds forces."

 

They lost at least half of their forces and the "immense fire power" was heavily downgraded in the last book. Their mobility wasn't really used either. Otherwise LB would have been much easier for the Light.

 

Demandred could have destroyed the army at the SG before even Mat (or Gareth in the earlier phase) realised what were happening. Like he did in Kandor.

Furthermore I am not sure that the Light could have afforded to burn the southland. And I didn't say that this army should only contain Trollocs. Nevertheless you are right, it isn't the best strategy. There are several other good moves too draw out Mat's army from its position.

 

"Demandred could have split his force, sent the Sharans to SG and Trollocs to ramapage through the southlands"

 

I didnt say it, it would certainly be a failing strategy. Either you need to deceive the Armies of the Light or leave a big enough army (with enough Dreadlords, Taim??) for them to fight with. Most probably both as I mentioned earlier.

 

The battlefield was clearly picked by Mat.

He didn't know Rand was at SG, he kept calling for him, remember?  Probably didn't realize there was fighting there either.  Demadred wanted a big battle between himself and Rand and what better way to do that than to engage in battle, even if Mat did have the supior positioning?  They had the good guys out numbered and his channelers were fresher.  Even with the superior positioning, it took all of Mat's knowledge to hold the battle together until the horn was blown to allow the good guys to win.

 

tldr

Demandred didn't care and just wanted to force Rand into a confrontation, not knowing he couldn't because he wasn't there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Some interesting points, I'll have to think on this before writing a more detailed response.

 

My initial thought is, what's the alternative?

 

Egwene's forces and Elayne's forces effectively broke the Trolloc armies they fought - not destroyed b/c there were still tens of thousands of Shadowspawn. Egwene was forced to retreat only when Demandred appeared with the Sharans.

 

We have the armies of light that are well led with battle hardened soldiers, has immense fire power (male and female channellers and Aludra's munitions), and FAR more mobile than Demandreds forces. Sure, Demandred can travel with the Sharans, but he cannot send Shadowspawn through gateways.

 

Demandred could have split his force, sent the Sharans to SG and Trollocs to ramapage through the southlands...but what would that have served? Mat would have left an expeditionary force in the southlands to slash and burn, just as Lan did in Shienar, and leave the Trollocs without any sustenance. Two weeks of that, and the Shadowspawn would have done themselves in. The Forces of Light would have followed the Sharans north to SG and engaged them. The Sharans alone were not enough to fight the Forces of Light, even with the Shadowspawn that would have been present at SG. The Forces of Light would have won, and then have the option of engaging the southern Shadowspawn armies at will.

 

**If the Shadowspawn from the south would travel overland from the FoM to SG, they would still arrive exhausted and starving.

 

Demandred did pick his battlefield, and turned blitzed the forces of light to take the highground. Mat used this to pin him down.

 

Elayne's forces only won because of the intervention of BT. It was a true pyrrhic victory against a big, but not very disciplined army (compared especially with the Sharans).

Egwene (Gareth) was outgeneraled by Demandred, who laid a trap for the WT. So the initial victory meant nothing.

 

"We have the armies of light that are well led with battle hardened soldiers, has immense fire power (male and female channellers and Aludra's munitions), and FAR more mobile than Demandreds forces."

 

They lost at least half of their forces and the "immense fire power" was heavily downgraded in the last book. Their mobility wasn't really used either. Otherwise LB would have been much easier for the Light.

 

Demandred could have destroyed the army at the SG before even Mat (or Gareth in the earlier phase) realised what were happening. Like he did in Kandor.

Furthermore I am not sure that the Light could have afforded to burn the southland. And I didn't say that this army should only contain Trollocs. Nevertheless you are right, it isn't the best strategy. There are several other good moves too draw out Mat's army from its position.

 

"Demandred could have split his force, sent the Sharans to SG and Trollocs to ramapage through the southlands"

 

I didnt say it, it would certainly be a failing strategy. Either you need to deceive the Armies of the Light or leave a big enough army (with enough Dreadlords, Taim??) for them to fight with. Most probably both as I mentioned earlier.

 

The battlefield was clearly picked by Mat.

I think it was in the book ,the shadow couldn't just sit and wait just like the light forces couldn't just hold up in a city for a protracted war.  FOOD, the trollocs needed to eat so Dem couldn't just chill and take his time.  Besides why care about attacking your enemy when your forces vastly outnumber the Light side.  You think Dem cared about losses?  Only once in a POV was it said the trollocs numbers weren't endless.  Thinking he was going up against LTT made him use brillant tatics but it was still a strategy of brute force.  To me he would be like Zhukiov in WWII, if he lost 100,000 in a fight he didn't care as long as he won.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I have to say about Elayne is that I would think she would be in a little worse mood since her brother just died and one of her best friends Egwene and her warder Birgitte died.  Considering Elayne knew that's what Birgitte wanted I can see how she might have a little more comfort in her death but at the same time when one of your best friend dies, even if it is what he/she wants, you're going to be sad.  Elayne just seems over it though.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, as Sanderson himself said, he's not very good with battles. I agree with the points made about the battle. All we have to prove Demandred to be a good general is a couple lines here and there to state it.

But, why the hell would all the forces of the Shadow compromise themselves to a fair fight at Merrilor's Field?? Why not just swarm the world with out of control trollocs (they had the numbers) in a way that it would be impossible for the armies of the light to control them? Why not just defend Shayol Gull, and let the time go by whitout worry while the Dark One breaks free? Giving the light the chance to fight makes no sense.

Breaking into small groups would spread out your group, and since the forces of the Light are more mobile with gateways, they could pick and choose their battles and only ever engage when the odds are in their favor. This kind of war would actually tactically favor the Light--but come at the cost of large swaths of land destroyed by the Shadow's armies.

 

Pulling back would simply take too long, and the choke point would dampen the effects of superior numbers, anyway.

 

The position on Melinor Field wasn't too tactically advantageous for the forces of the Light--Mat acknowledged it straight out, they needed to provide a tempting target. It wouldn't have worked if they holed up in Tar Valon, for instance, despite the fact that the Shadow would have a hell of a time breaching that city (seriously, that city is a tactical heaven). It was a gambit, in the true sense of the word.

 

Also, Demandred isn't really all there in the head, if you hadn't noticed. He's a tactical genius, but he couldn't let that kind of challenge go unmet, regardless of the tactical advantage it would bring.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...