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Taim's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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Again, like in the Demandred thread, this is not the place to extrapolate and argue the Taim-Demandred angle. As with the other thread, I direct people to the quality thread, it is the most fitting place - although I don't really see anywhere where it fits in completely. 

 

This is about Taim in aMoL. Despite whatever else may or may not have been in a parallel world, Taim was a newly raised Forsaken, leader of the Black Tower, killed by the Amyrlin. 

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when Rand fought against Taim and the dreadlords near the start of the LB, Rand said that Taim must have been leading a full circle when seeing that huge shield. Did he mean a 13 full circle or the maximum 72 full circle? I'm thinking it was 13 because it would be near impossible to stop any more than that, but if there were at least 3 dozen dreadlords, why didn't Taim just use the full circle and shield Rand? 

Also if Taim was freed by the Black Ajah and convinced to fight from the shadow from the beginning, why was he showing such kindness to Rand. At certain times in LoC he told Rand that he must hold on to his sanity, i know that it is tough and what not. He did not seem like a darkfriend in LoC, just a really strong man who thought a lot of himself. That wasn't properly explained. And how did he know where Rand was in LoC at dumani wells?

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Taim's arc was OK. I expected more action from the battle for the BT, but we got enough. The only problem I have with Taim concerns the Seals - what did Taim intend to do with them, and why didn't he put a ward (or something) on the pouch containing the Seals? Androl recovered the Seals in the stupidest way. Why didn't Taim notice Androl's weakness in the power during their encounter? I guess Taim was busy and tired or whatever. The final confrontation with Egwene was fun and appropriate, other than, as someone suggested, being a contest of "my sa'angreal is bigger than your sa'angreal."

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Like alot of others, I didnt like the lack of detail regarding Taim. His weird references, his knowledge of weaves, the occasional displays of sympathy he had for Rand, how much of the Shadow plots throughout the series he knew about, etc etc. He truly seemed like an interesting fellow, but in this book he was relegated to Demandred henchman. I didnt mind that so much, since the confrontation between them showed why Demandred was so feared, but still.

 

 I was always under the impression that Taim's rescue was conducted by the BA, just like they had planned. That is when Demandred started working on him and with him. He has been tutored by one of the most prominent Forsaken and of course would have knowledge of old weaves (more so than new weaves isolated at the BT) and refer to Aiel as "so-called" since that is how his teacher refered to them.

My issue with that is why give up a seal to Rand if you were working for the bad guys already.  I don't see the Forsaken willingly giving up a seal if they had one in their possession. Since they had no idea Rand was planning to start recruiting male channelers they had no idea he would be so valuable.  If they broke him free they were probably hoping he would run about cuasing some chaos.  I think he truely went to Rand for safety.  Once he was in charge of the BT and recruiting he suddenly had great value to the DO. 

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Taim's arc was OK. I expected more action from the battle for the BT, but we got enough. The only problem I have with Taim concerns the Seals - what did Taim intend to do with them, and why didn't he put a ward (or something) on the pouch containing the Seals? Androl recovered the Seals in the stupidest way. Why didn't Taim notice Androl's weakness in the power during their encounter? I guess Taim was busy and tired or whatever. The final confrontation with Egwene was fun and appropriate, other than, as someone suggested, being a contest of "my sa'angreal is bigger than your sa'angreal."

 

men don't feel strength like women do.

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Like alot of others, I didnt like the lack of detail regarding Taim. His weird references, his knowledge of weaves, the occasional displays of sympathy he had for Rand, how much of the Shadow plots throughout the series he knew about, etc etc. He truly seemed like an interesting fellow, but in this book he was relegated to Demandred henchman. I didnt mind that so much, since the confrontation between them showed why Demandred was so feared, but still.

 

 I was always under the impression that Taim's rescue was conducted by the BA, just like they had planned. That is when Demandred started working on him and with him. He has been tutored by one of the most prominent Forsaken and of course would have knowledge of old weaves (more so than new weaves isolated at the BT) and refer to Aiel as "so-called" since that is how his teacher refered to them.

 

We know that it wasn't-the BA that gave that story was the unstilled-one, who was bound by the oath rod and thus incapable of betraying the Black Ajah. They were able to get useful information from the other one, who had been stilled and thus freed from her oaths. And that doesn't explain all the weird AOL-era references and knowledge. 

Edited by fyodor
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My issue with that is why give up a seal to Rand if you were working for the bad guys already.  I don't see the Forsaken willingly giving up a seal if they had one in their possession. Since they had no idea Rand was planning to start recruiting male channelers they had no idea he would be so valuable.  If they broke him free they were probably hoping he would run about cuasing some chaos.  I think he truely went to Rand for safety.  Once he was in charge of the BT and recruiting he suddenly had great value to the DO. 

 

This too. The shadow seemed pretty intent on finding the seals. Why would they let one of their people hand over the seals? Did he really just get the seal from some dude? 

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My issue with that is why give up a seal to Rand if you were working for the bad guys already.  I don't see the Forsaken willingly giving up a seal if they had one in their possession. Since they had no idea Rand was planning to start recruiting male channelers they had no idea he would be so valuable.  If they broke him free they were probably hoping he would run about cuasing some chaos.  I think he truely went to Rand for safety.  Once he was in charge of the BT and recruiting he suddenly had great value to the DO. 

 

This too. The shadow seemed pretty intent on finding the seals. Why would they let one of their people hand over the seals? Did he really just get the seal from some dude? 

 

Because the benefit of gaining Rands trust outweighed the problem of losing the seal.

 

He was probably simply trained just to be a dreadlord. Maybe even continue claiming he was the real Dragon to further spread chaos. However, when the whole Blacktower situation came up, the Shadow had to send someone. Sending a Forsaken was potentially too risky, so at the time they sent a simple darkfriend instead. His efforts awarded him the rank of Chosen.

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Taim's scenes in the books seemed to be less about him and more about how Androl was going to get the best of him.  The Taim vs. Logain battle we ALL anticipated was ruined by Sanderson's supered powered Asha'man.  Taim doesn't even get a decent last confrontation.  Eqwene shouldn't have been the one to kill him, (and with an especially cheesy kill at that.. i mean.. come on.. the flame of tar valon...)

 

had fan boy Sanderson left himself out of the book(masquerading as  Androl) and focused on Jordan's characters, Taim's arc would've been better.

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Yeah, I don't know what happened to Taim, but he just got a lot less scary overall. I mean, he did blow up Deepe, but after that? He just kinda popped up and was said to be killing stuff. 

 

And seriously, a Logain vs Taim confrontation would have been perfect. At the least, someone with a sword killing Taim would have been perfect. Bonus points if it was Logain with a sword.

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I actually think Taim played out just like he should. It was cool to see that he became chosen since he had a huge impact on the amount of channelers that the shadow has. At the same time, he was just another petty villain at heart. He is envious of everyone who is put in a position "above" him. That fits in with other forsaken. The only one of them who is not petty is Moridin. It is fitting that Eg takes him out because she came to the top of her respective hierarchy as quickly as he did. They actually have a pretty huge parallel throughout the series.

 

Sorry for the fragmented chain of thought. On a phone and cannot type as fast as i think

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They should've named this guy M'fail. He was decent at planning, plotting, and generally operating for the shadow for half the story, but his combat ability is almost nonexistent.

 

Every instance of action he saw in the books showed him as inferior. Inferior to Rand, inferior to Demandred, and inferior to Egwene. It almost feels as if this guy was supposed to be designed with an inferiority complex.

 

I was really annoyed when he lost to Rand with 13 channelers, even losing some. Armed with only the fat man angreal, Rand managed to retreat after inflicting losses, while Taim revealed the Shadow's preparation and tracking of him. It could've been used as an assassination attempt. If Bao and his buddies showed up as soon as Rand came upon a battlefield, he would've been toast. He did plan well, but this first showing of his combat abilities was just plain sad.

 

His absolute humiliation by Demandred was also extremely pathetic. He showed up and antagonized Demandred when he had no...power. His men were lesser in number, and his BA had no training compared to the Ayyad who formed a circle of 72 to annihilate Aes Sedai.

 

Finally, his extremely poor showing against Egwene was also mind numbingly sad. It showed that he not only was inferior in combat against channelers of the AoL, but shockingly weak against a mid-tier opponent. I almost wish Cadsuane had kicked his nuts, as she actually has shown that she knows weaves that could somewhat withstand the weaving of AoL channelers.

 

It wasn't really a generic plot induced asspull that Egwene defeated him with. It was just pure channeling skill. He could not, with a far superior sa'angreal, defeat someone with far less power than he. He was just shown to be inferior here. There are many channelers in the story that could defeat Egwene, even without Balefire in Taim's place.Taim had no finesse. He shot balefire at Egwene as if it were a gun over and over again. Of course, the spent the entire book pew pewing shooting lazers out of his hands like an incompetent unnamed damane instead of actually weaving intelligently like Graendal.

 

I was excited to see Taim fight, but I guess I never expected him to have absolutely no combat ability. Of course, there haven't really been hints about Taim ever having any combat ability, just expectations.

Edited by cookiecrisp
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They should've named this guy M'fail. He was decent at planning, plotting, and generally operating for the shadow for half the story, but his combat ability is almost nonexistent.

 

Every instance of action he saw in the books showed him as inferior. Inferior to Rand, inferior to Demandred, and inferior to Egwene. It almost feels as if this guy was supposed to be designed with an inferiority complex.

 

I was really annoyed when he lost to Rand with 13 channelers, even losing some. Armed with only the fat man angreal, Rand managed to retreat after inflicting losses, while Taim revealed the Shadow's preparation and tracking of him. It could've been used as an assassination attempt. If Bao and his buddies showed up as soon as Rand came upon a battlefield, he would've been toast. He did plan well, but this first showing of his combat abilities was just plain sad.

 

His absolute humiliation by Demandred was also extremely pathetic. He showed up and antagonized Demandred when he had no...power. His men were lesser in number, and his BA had no training compared to the Ayyad who formed a circle of 72 to annihilate Aes Sedai.

 

Finally, his extremely poor showing against Egwene was also mind numbingly sad. It showed that he not only was inferior in combat against channelers of the AoL, but shockingly weak against a mid-tier opponent. I almost wish Cadsuane had kicked his nuts, as she actually has shown that she knows weaves that could somewhat withstand the weaving of AoL channelers.

 

It wasn't really a generic plot induced asspull that Egwene defeated him with. It was just pure channeling skill. He could not, with a far superior sa'angreal, defeat someone with far less power than he. He was just shown to be inferior here. There are many channelers in the story that could defeat Egwene, even without Balefire in Taim's place.Taim had no finesse. He shot balefire at Egwene as if it were a gun over and over again. Of course, the spent the entire book pew pewing shooting lazers out of his hands like an incompetent unnamed damane instead of actually weaving intelligently like Graendal.

 

I was excited to see Taim fight, but I guess I never expected him to have absolutely no combat ability. Of course, there haven't really been hints about Taim ever having any combat ability, just expectations.

Not sure of actual combat abiity, but there was a hint when he went to Rand that he must of been a decent general.  After all he made a statement how he had bashere defated until the dragon appeared in the sky.  I agree his simple non stop use of balefire did seem to show a man with no imigination.

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This too. The shadow seemed pretty intent on finding the seals. Why would they let one of their people hand over the seals? Did he really just get the seal from some dude?

Well, they have somehow managed to swipe all the Seals off Rand. Maybe there was a Finder on this one Seal, that allowed them to track Rand's Seal cache, once he added it to the others. That might have been a very clever plot on Taim's part, actually.

Carrying them in a belt pouch and admiring them... Not so much.

 

Re: Egwene, she did have to sacrifice herself to overcome him... and honestly, I hope that there is more to OP combat than brute strength, because that would be very boring and deterministic.

 

IMHO, Egwene taking Taim was far more thematically appropriate and interesting than Logain doing so.

Edited by Celebel
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This too. The shadow seemed pretty intent on finding the seals. Why would they let one of their people hand over the seals? Did he really just get the seal from some dude?

IMHO, Egwene taking Taim was far more thematically appropriate and interesting than Logain doing so.

Curious as to why you feel that since there seem to be more foreshadowing and expectation of Logain being the one to tackle Taim.

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Curious as to why you feel that since there seem to be more foreshadowing and expectation of Logain being the one to tackle Taim.

 

Expectation, yes - it would, after all, have been a well-worn trope. But foreshadowing? I don't recall much beyond Logain not liking him and nebulous foreseeing of his glory. His halo in Min's viewing looked very much like Sheriam's too - blue and gold versus blue and silver, so I expected some kind of martyrdom.

 

As to Egwene versus Taim - both leaders of their Towers, Egwene healed hers and brought it to the side of Light, Taim broke his and tried to turn it to the Shadow (not wholly successfully), he was using balefire and destroying the Pattern, Egwene re-invented cuiendillar, which can withstand balefire and was generally about restoration, etc.

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This too. The shadow seemed pretty intent on finding the seals. Why would they let one of their people hand over the seals? Did he really just get the seal from some dude?

IMHO, Egwene taking Taim was far more thematically appropriate and interesting than Logain doing so.

Curious as to why you feel that since there seem to be more foreshadowing and expectation of Logain being the one to tackle Taim.

I think because many like myself expected the BT fight to be a bit more epic.  So who else would you expect to go toe to toe with Taim then the other BT faction leader. 

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My question, is when was it known to the 'general cast' that Taim was evil? I don't remember seeing him coming out as a Darkfriend in ToM. By the end of ToM, all that was known to those at the Black Tower was "Those taking private lessons from him are coming back all weird." From what I remember, Rand was still more or less trusting Taim to do his thing long as they were ready for the last battle, a sort of 'I'll need to go straighten him out but for now he's fine without me.' sort of thing. First time he's seen outside of the Black Tower in MoL, Rand's all "Time for me to kill you like I should have!" and the rest of the cast knows he's a darkfriend and leading the male dreadlords. At what point did the cast realize he was less "A shady guy but on our side" and more "He's the enemy"?

i didnt read all the replies but didnt we know Taim was DF or whatever back during PoD?  Didnt he either turn or recruit Rochaid to kill Rand?

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My question, is when was it known to the 'general cast' that Taim was evil? I don't remember seeing him coming out as a Darkfriend in ToM. By the end of ToM, all that was known to those at the Black Tower was "Those taking private lessons from him are coming back all weird." From what I remember, Rand was still more or less trusting Taim to do his thing long as they were ready for the last battle, a sort of 'I'll need to go straighten him out but for now he's fine without me.' sort of thing. First time he's seen outside of the Black Tower in MoL, Rand's all "Time for me to kill you like I should have!" and the rest of the cast knows he's a darkfriend and leading the male dreadlords. At what point did the cast realize he was less "A shady guy but on our side" and more "He's the enemy"?

i didnt read all the replies but didnt we know Taim was DF or whatever back during PoD?  Didnt he either turn or recruit Rochaid to kill Rand?

http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/67

And that's for us, the readers. Rand knew even less.

I suppose Rand could think that those "bad" Asha'man were not directed by Taim? I don't remember whether he could think there is a link.

Edited by wRAR
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My question, is when was it known to the 'general cast' that Taim was evil? I don't remember seeing him coming out as a Darkfriend in ToM. By the end of ToM, all that was known to those at the Black Tower was "Those taking private lessons from him are coming back all weird." From what I remember, Rand was still more or less trusting Taim to do his thing long as they were ready for the last battle, a sort of 'I'll need to go straighten him out but for now he's fine without me.' sort of thing. First time he's seen outside of the Black Tower in MoL, Rand's all "Time for me to kill you like I should have!" and the rest of the cast knows he's a darkfriend and leading the male dreadlords. At what point did the cast realize he was less "A shady guy but on our side" and more "He's the enemy"?

i didnt read all the replies but didnt we know Taim was DF or whatever back during PoD?  Didnt he either turn or recruit Rochaid to kill Rand?

Yes the reader knew that Taim was up to no good,however the "general cast" did not. I have to assume that BS chose to out Taim as a bad guy off screen in the same way the "general cast" found out about Callandor's flaw and its behavior amplifying the True Power. I dont like alot of these off screen revelations but I guess BS wanted to save himself the page space necessary to put in on screen in AMOL.

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out Taim as a bad guy off screen in the same way the "general cast" found out about Callandor's flaw and its behavior amplifying the True Power. I dont like alot of these off screen revelations but I guess BS wanted to save himself the page space necessary to put in on screen in AMOL.

What do you mean by the "general cast"? We know Cadsuane told him about the flaw and Min later did a good deal of research as well.

 

Not sure how they can be cosnidered off screen revelations when we are given multiple onn screen hints(forskane sigils, so called Aiel, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" etc). Maybe I am misunderstanding your point though?

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However, where is the "on-screen" revelation and knowledge given to Rand al`Thor that Taim was evil? 

 

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I would like to see where this did happen.

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