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Moiraine's Arc (Full Spoilers)


Luckers
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The Point of moiraine was simple and easy to see. SHE Helped Rand seal the bore. She helped him ally the leaders of randland. It's rather clear. It's a little unfortunate that she didn't do more, but on the scale of things, what she did was not just huge, but essential. 

 

The Bore, any AS with a strong mind would have sufficed (e.g. Cadsuane).  Nyaneve was more essentiall at the Bore, due to her herb knowledge.

 

As for the meeting, I suspect without Moraine, Cadusane would have done the same thing. 

 

Cads couldn't (and didn't) do what Moiraine did at the meeting.  We are shown that Eg didn't trust her, and in WH we see the reactions of a ruler (that she's helped) towards her.  Cads may well (and probably did) have Alises(?) best interest at heart, but it didn't stop Alise from resenting her and trying to get away with as much rudeness as possible.  Moiraine was both trusted and respected by everyone in that tent (certainly everyone who had an opinion that could sway the room - inc. Rand, Eg, the Borderlanders, Elayne...) Cads didn't have that.  One of the biggest reasons that Moiraine had that trust of everyone is that she wasn't around to choose sides for the past 8 books, there wasn't anyone else in that position (when the offer is made to the AS to bond Ashaman you can see the reaction between the sisters that stayed neutral and those that picked a side).  Yes anyone could have said the words, but I don't think that there was anyone else who could get them listened to.

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There were a bunch of situations I would have liked to have seen in the final book. That said, what did in fact happen was fine with me. A lot of reunions and goodbyes were underplayed. I think that's the best thing that could have happened even though I was a bit put out at first.

 

If these scenes weren't underplayed there would have been multiple "I love you. You're the bestest" scenes and it would have gotten annoying. 

 

Moiraine served her purpose. She gave Rand some hope, she said a few words to him and advised him a bit again, she went with him as one of the two trusted women to handle Callandor. 

 

Off the top of my head, the only part of the final book I would have liked a bit more information about is Alanna. Was she a Darkfriend? Why? Because, if she was a Darkfriend, her decision to release Rand from the Bond would have had more meaning. 

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While I can believe that Moraine was needed at the council, I'm not sure how the council failure could doom the world.

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While I can believe that Moraine was needed at the council, I'm not sure how the council failure could doom the world.

no dragon's peace means one more thing that would of weighed down on rand's conscience during his fight with the dark one that could of led rand to kill the DO, or accept the DO's truce

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While I can believe that Moraine was needed at the council, I'm not sure how the council failure could doom the world.

 

I think it's to do with Rands conversation with the DO at the end, where (to paraphrase) he says that for the DO to win he needs humankind to give up.  If the FoM had failed and the light side had fractured, they'd have been far more likely to lose their respective battles and more importantly lose hope.  I don't know enough about philosophy to engage in a proper debate over the logic behind all the conversation and stuff that happened between the DO and Rand, but I wonder if the DO needs the Dragon because humanity is far more likely to surrender hope if their 'saviour' falls?  Look at what happens to the Sharons when Demandred is killed. 

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@Sutt - regardless of personal feelings of Cads (or at least as impartially as I can manage).  Cads didn't have the trust of Eg, so couldn't have taken the role of Moiraine at the FoM.  I agree that the entire scene was a mess, but her role in it made perfect sense.

it is so dumb that someone needs that role.  Egwene just got done doing the exact same thing to elida that is being done to her.  Her arc makes no sense

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^The FoM sequence is terrible, with Rand contradicting himself from Towers, and Eg flip-flopping so often between GS and FoM...  But given that (no matter how contrived) Rand and Eg were in conflict, Moiraine is the only person that could have solved the dispute.  When Moiraine entered I hoped it was going to improve, alas it took a few more chapters...

 

Although I'm going to have t reread the 3 books together, to be sure of her stance from time-to-time and also try to work out a rough timeline for her conversations with Nyn and Elayne about the seals as I think some are out of order :(

Edited by BFG
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^The FoM sequence is terrible, with Rand contradicting himself from Towers, and Eg flip-flopping so often between GS and FoM...  But given that (no matter how contrived) Rand and Eg were in conflict, Moiraine is the only person that could have solved the dispute.  When Moiraine entered I hoped it was going to improve, alas it took a few more chapters...

 

Although I'm going to have t reread the 3 books together, to be sure of her stance from time-to-time and also try to work out a rough timeline for her conversations with Nyn and Elayne about the seals as I think some are out of order :(

see it seems that way you could of had tam and master al'vere come in and tell their brat kids to grow up, you could have lots of other people.  the problem is she does nothing that only she can do.  its weak

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^The FoM sequence is terrible, with Rand contradicting himself from Towers, and Eg flip-flopping so often between GS and FoM...  But given that (no matter how contrived) Rand and Eg were in conflict, Moiraine is the only person that could have solved the dispute.  When Moiraine entered I hoped it was going to improve, alas it took a few more chapters...

 

Although I'm going to have t reread the 3 books together, to be sure of her stance from time-to-time and also try to work out a rough timeline for her conversations with Nyn and Elayne about the seals as I think some are out of order :(

see it seems that way you could of had tam and master al'vere come in and tell their brat kids to grow up, you could have lots of other people.  the problem is she does nothing that only she can do.  its weak

Except that Tam or Master Al'vere have no authority or respect with any of the rulers there. Rand and Eg were undoubtably the most important people to convince, but they weren't the only ones. Additionally I'm not sure either of those would have read enough of the prophecies to understand them well enough.

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It is like int ToM Mat had to go rescue Moraine because he needed to lose his eye and we needed to bring Moraine back because it was so expected and would have been a major let down if it did not happen. Then she comes back and her job is to quote prophecies? It is just not well written. Breaking the seals is a major deal and something that has to happen. The whole history going back to the breaking is that the women and men Aes Sedai could not agree with each other. Here also I can see the Aes Sedai being dead set convinced that breaking the seals is absolutely the worst thing that can be done that they will do anything to prevent it from happening. Moraine's job is to convince them that they should break the seals. She is the only person who can conceivably do this, possibly tied to knowledge she gained during her imprisonment. The scene just needed to be brought out better and in more detail. I think this whole book suffers from lack of filling out scenes with sufficient details to make them more convincing. This of course is tied to the fact that BS & Harriet wanted to be able to complete this series and not have to write another book or two.

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I think this whole book suffers from lack of filling out scenes with sufficient details to make them more convincing. This of course is tied to the fact that BS & Harriet wanted to be able to complete this series and not have to write another book or two.

While true that has more to do with Brandon's writing style than anything. There was more than enough room once the split was decided and space was not used wisely at all. You could have easily cut out a good deal of the video game esque "battle porn" in AmoL to do what you say above. It's obvious after the last three books that the split wasn't needed. See my response to your post in the OMG thread.

Edited by Suttree
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....nothing really to add...... Morraine's "arc" (<---term used loosely) is the perfect definition of "unfulfilled expectations"..... And my expectations were not even that extensive. Just wanted....more or better or, something....

 

So all Thom did in his "arc" (<---is that word applicable?) besides touch Morraine affectionatly and wink at a few people: he sat for days and days at the entrance to the Pit of Doom, trying to overcome writer's block. He also used his immense House of Games insight and observed peoples' walking styles, and then effortlessly killed five separate people (all Black Ajah? I don't know) with perfect one-hit-kill knife throws...... As I read this scene, my mind wandered:did he bring enough food and water? Where did he go to the bathroom? Why didn't that Black Ajah fry him with weaves? if the BA couldn't channel, then why was her Mirror Mask still in place? How far up the mountain was stashing those dead bodies? Was difficult to carry them? Did he look through their belongings for valuables, like gold or candy bars? Why didn't the trespassers wait until he was asleep to make their move? ...... Oh, Thom.......

Edited by BlueSun
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if the BA couldn't channel, then why was her Mirror Mask still in place?

Maybe channel at the bottom of the mountain, tied the weave and release saidar? I think that could work.

 

I agree that deleting some scenes from the last three books and adding some important scenes (Moiraine meets Lan, Moiraine meets Siuan, Moiraine meets Cadsuane and achieve some understanding, instead of just avoiding each other, etc) will be great.

 

I love how Roedran's reaction to how the other's react to Moiraine, though. It showed how insignificant he was :P

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It is like int ToM Mat had to go rescue Moraine because he needed to lose his eye and we needed to bring Moraine back because it was so expected and would have been a major let down if it did not happen. Then she comes back and her job is to quote prophecies? 

 

She pretty much prevented total disaster and a victory for the Shadow.

 

It should have been fleshed out more. But she did more than just quote prophecies...

 

And Eggy was right that breaking the Seals then as Rand wanted to would have been disastrous as well. I don't see you mentioning how Rand needed to be convinced to wait, just that Eggy and the Aes Sedai needed to be convinced to break them.

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Mat gave up half the light of the world to save the world. Maybe that is independent from rand needing her. Maybe mat needed to save her for after the last battle...

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Moiraine's role has been answered by Brandon in his recent Tor Chat interview. 

 

She saved the world with the Dragon's Peace meeting, by uniting everyone rather than leaving them divided. 

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I really wanted to read more about moraine in this book, i was dissapointed that she wasnt in it more

 

Exactly and the reunion was totally flat for me.  We never even saw a reunion with Moiraine and Siuan or Lan.  Disappointing.

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The only good thing about Moiraine's reunion is how she tricked Rand into making her tea. Some might say that this is Moiraine bullying Rand, but I read this as a intimate and private interaction between them.

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Not exactly sure what Moraine did.

 

Nothing would have happened if Rand had broken the seals.Either the seals were fake or real but if fake the shadow stole them very soon after and they did not break it when they could have any time.So obviously they did not want the seals broken at that time.

 

The whole meetig with Rand was not written well. After having read the book few more time,I would without doubt say AMOL is the second worst book of the series after CoT.Infact I would have put it the worst if not for things happenning in it compared to CoT

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Not exactly sure what Moraine did.

 

Nothing would have happened if Rand had broken the seals.Either the seals were fake or real but if fake the shadow stole them very soon after and they did not break it when they could have any time.So obviously they did not want the seals broken at that time.

 

The whole meetig with Rand was not written well. After having read the book few more time,I would without doubt say AMOL is the second worst book of the series after CoT.Infact I would have put it the worst if not for things happenning in it compared to CoT

Moiraine's role was not about the seals...it was about getting Rand and Egwene (and those who had chosen a "side" for or against the Dragon Reborn) to work together instead of going their own ways. You know as well as I that, without Moiraine's influence, Egwene would not have been willing to work with Rand. She wanted to dictate to him and have him obey. Her fear over breaking the seals outweighed all common sense for her - she preferred the idea of Rand tainting saidin again over any other option because she had no other ideas and, in her mind, at least they knew "how to handle" it when saidin was tainted again. She didn't want that out of spite (as much as I'd love to attribute that amount of crappyness to her), she just didn't care if it happened again as long as Rand did not take any chances of something "worse" happening.

 

The scene was written for crap, in my opinion, but I think Sanderson was trying to make Egwene look less of an a-hole by making Rand look like childish (after being criticized for making one character look bad to make another look good, he might have been paranoid about making Egwene look bad). Mostly likely, RJ had left instructions that Egwne and Rand were not seeing eye to eye and fighting over control (Egwene insisting on Rand obeying her and Rand refusing to accept being treated like she was his superior), and that Moiraine was the one to come in and make them find common ground (forcing each of them to cede some control) so the Light would come together as one instead of splitting into the pro-Rand and pro-Egwene factions.

 

It could definitely have been written better. For one thing, Rand didn't want control of the armies (he said that in ToM), but BS had him backtrack to make the scene "work". He should've insisted on Bashere or Perrin or someone else he trusted being the one to lead the Light...Egwene would've refused and wanted control herself, which he would not agree to for valid reasons. For another thing, I think Moiraine should've had a harder time of it. If she'd have come in with her "Glenda the good witch" crap and everyone there had basically rolled there eyes (after being shocked to see her, and quite possibly happy) then left, intending to go their own ways, she would have actually had to work toward achieving her goal. Spouting prophecies to everyone, looking at each one the prophecy referred to was too cheesy...having her go to them individually (or by group) and forcing them to acknowledge the truth ("the white tower shall break and bend knee to the forgotten sign", for example) would have been far more impressive, especially if everything started going to hell in the meantime because everyone was going their own way.

 

Regardless, I get where he was going with Mo's arc, and it made sense. She's the only one who had a chance in hell of getting Egwene to let go of the idea that Rand should do what she wanted instead of what he felt was right. Any others who understood the situation were either not trusted by Egwene (Cadsuane) or were seen as supplicants whose opinion didn't matter in the slightest if they disagreed with her (Nynaeve).

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Lil

 

Brandon is on record saying Moiriane's role was to being both Egewne and Rand together and that Egwene had to come around on breaking the seals and Rand had to wait on breaking them until the right time per Egwene's idea or all would have been lost.

 

Lastly stop saying Egwene's preference was for Saidin to be tainted again. It was one idea of many that was thought of and quickly tossed aside.

Edited by Suttree
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Not exactly sure what Moraine did.

 

Nothing would have happened if Rand had broken the seals.Either the seals were fake or real but if fake the shadow stole them very soon after and they did not break it when they could have any time.So obviously they did not want the seals broken at that time.

 

The whole meetig with Rand was not written well. After having read the book few more time,I would without doubt say AMOL is the second worst book of the series after CoT.Infact I would have put it the worst if not for things happenning in it compared to CoT

Moiraine's role was not about the seals...it was about getting Rand and Egwene (and those who had chosen a "side" for or against the Dragon Reborn) to work together instead of going their own ways. You know as well as I that, without Moiraine's influence, Egwene would not have been willing to work with Rand. She wanted to dictate to him and have him obey. Her fear over breaking the seals outweighed all common sense for her - she preferred the idea of Rand tainting saidin again over any other option because she had no other ideas and, in her mind, at least they knew "how to handle" it when saidin was tainted again. She didn't want that out of spite (as much as I'd love to attribute that amount of crappyness to her), she just didn't care if it happened again as long as Rand did not take any chances of something "worse" happening.

 

The scene was written for crap, in my opinion, but I think Sanderson was trying to make Egwene look less of an a-hole by making Rand look like childish (after being criticized for making one character look bad to make another look good, he might have been paranoid about making Egwene look bad). Mostly likely, RJ had left instructions that Egwne and Rand were not seeing eye to eye and fighting over control (Egwene insisting on Rand obeying her and Rand refusing to accept being treated like she was his superior), and that Moiraine was the one to come in and make them find common ground (forcing each of them to cede some control) so the Light would come together as one instead of splitting into the pro-Rand and pro-Egwene factions.

 

It could definitely have been written better. For one thing, Rand didn't want control of the armies (he said that in ToM), but BS had him backtrack to make the scene "work". He should've insisted on Bashere or Perrin or someone else he trusted being the one to lead the Light...Egwene would've refused and wanted control herself, which he would not agree to for valid reasons. For another thing, I think Moiraine should've had a harder time of it. If she'd have come in with her "Glenda the good witch" crap and everyone there had basically rolled there eyes (after being shocked to see her, and quite possibly happy) then left, intending to go their own ways, she would have actually had to work toward achieving her goal. Spouting prophecies to everyone, looking at each one the prophecy referred to was too cheesy...having her go to them individually (or by group) and forcing them to acknowledge the truth ("the white tower shall break and bend knee to the forgotten sign", for example) would have been far more impressive, especially if everything started going to hell in the meantime because everyone was going their own way.

 

Regardless, I get where he was going with Mo's arc, and it made sense. She's the only one who had a chance in hell of getting Egwene to let go of the idea that Rand should do what she wanted instead of what he felt was right. Any others who understood the situation were either not trusted by Egwene (Cadsuane) or were seen as supplicants whose opinion didn't matter in the slightest if they disagreed with her (Nynaeve).

 

Agree with everything,would have loved Egwene's PoV when Moiraine quoted "the white tower shall break and bend knee to the forgotten sign line"

 

I am not going to give Egwene the benefit of the doubt about not actually wanting Saidin tainted again.She does think of the WT as the superior of the world and what better way to sustain that than having the male half tainted again.

 

Egwene definetly suffers from split personality disorder between ToM to AMOL. And what about the fact that she was going to argue about the bonded AS with Rand.Did she just forget that?

Edited by XXX47
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I am not going to give Egwene the benefit of the doubt about not actually wanting Saidin tainted again.She does think of the WT as the superior of the world and what better way to sustain that than having the male half tainted again.

It's statements like that which make it impossible for anyone to take you seriously on this topic. In fact we are told flat out that she knows the world is changing, has called the AS fools and vowed they must adapt to the new order.

 

ToM

 

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds

Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

It is made clear time and again that she wants the WT whole to help the world at TG, not for some secret plot that will lead to a personnel power grab in order to set herself up as a tyrant. The Saidin idea was brought up as an option if there was no other way to go about things and then quickly discarded.
 
You are right about the split personality thing however, total agreement there.
Edited by Suttree
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Ok I agree that more Moraine was vastly needed, but she did do several things besides the FOM scene she 1. Lets rand know he must trust his friends to win the war, he can't do both

2. Stops rand from confronting Dem which he was convinced he needed to do

3. Tells him the Balck Tower must fend for itself that failure was to late to fix

 

By the way does anyone know what Naeff did when rand sent him to the Tower with a weave and a message for Logain

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