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Moiraine's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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I was very disappointed; Moiraine was underused, and it is insulting to us , long time fans who have wanted her back in the front of things for a very long time. Thom as well. I agree totally with most of you , we were forced to read silly fillers, and deprived of real substance.

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I don't think RJ ever intended her to have a lot of screentime after her return. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to see more of her, but I agree that she was pivotal in the FoM scene, and that it was important for her to be with Rand at SG.

 

I can't believe no one understands the coldness between her and Lan. She arranged for his bond to be passed to another without his permission, which is something that I would view as even worse than simply bonding a man against his will. She deprived him of avenging her death with his own, something he'd been longing for his entire life. He very likely felt betrayed. No matter how happy he was to see her alive, the massive resentment he must feel toward her would override that.

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I thought she'd play a bigger role too. Cadsuane and Nyneave had very little to do with the book too. These were all a big part of the story for me. No complaining about the book, just a little disappointed for all the foreshadowing to lead to this.

 

 

 

 

Also, liked it when she said if age was a factor then Mat would be all of their patriarch. "Just a little something I learned that I probably wasn't supposed to know". That was cool.

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I can't believe no one understands the coldness between her and Lan. She arranged for his bond to be passed to another without his permission, which is something that I would view as even worse than simply bonding a man against his will. She deprived him of avenging her death with his own, something he'd been longing for his entire life. He very likely felt betrayed. No matter how happy he was to see her alive, the massive resentment he must feel toward her would override that.

 

I don't think it was that. Yes, Lan is probably still angry that his bond was passed against his will, but he's known about that since TGH. There was nothing for him to avenge after her death; Lanfear was gone too. Since he married Nynaeve, Lan's mental health has improved (according to Nynaeve in KoD). I don't believe he'd rather have died a pointless death in TFoH than to save Nynaeve's life in ACoS and fight in the Last Battle.

 

However, he probably did feel betrayed by the fact that Moiraine evidently knew what was going to happen to her, and wrote a letter to Thom with instructions how to save her, but left no word to her own Warder of 20 years. Moiraine let Lan continue to believe she was dead for almost an entire year. Then she suddenly shows up with a new Warder (Thom) in AMoL and very likely didn't tell Lan how much she suffered herself during the past year. So, Lan probably feels deceived by Moiraine; in his eyes, she didn't trust him with the truth and let him grieve her death needlessly.

 

As for Moiraine, she may have been disappointed that Lan gave her the cold shoulder (in her letter to Rand, she said of Lan, "He will understand one day, and I hope, bless me for it"). She probably didn't expect Lan to react the way he did when Nynaeve of all people had been happy to see her. So, I didn't think it was strange at all that they were acting frosty towards each other, but I think it should have been mentioned in either Lan's or Moiraine's POV.

Edited by sleepinghour
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There was a Moiraine arc? Why did she come back at all? We didn't see any of the potential scenes which would've made her comeback worth it - her reunions with Lan, Siuan, Perrin, etc. More influence on the LB than sitting still in a cave for 3/4 of the book. Anything worth reading, really.

 

You want her to reunite with every single person she's ever met? After Rand and Nyn it's basically the same thing over and over. Tears, some glares, some hugs and some untimely joking in the face of the end of everything. They are nice things to have but not important to the story. And adding those things in would DEFINITELY be giving into what you know the fans want to see - which is what BS was accused of doing in the Demandred thread with the sword fights.

 

She influenced everything Rand did in the final book, even tell him what a dumb idea it is to kill the DO (though, I think more because she didn't think he could or it was not his place to make that choice.) Of course, because of the way she never reveals all her secrets, we have no true idea as to the extent of her contributions.

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Do I think Moraine should have gotten a couple more scenes?  Hells, yes.  But I'm of the opinion that her presence was vital at Merrilor.  Her participation was critical in:

 

1) Reminding Rand he couldn't be the Supreme Battle Commander AND fight the DO, and that one of the reasons LTT failed the 1st time around is that he didn't trust others to do a job for him.

 

2) Arranging for the Breaking of the Seals compromise.  She was the only Aes Sedai that could do it b/c she was the only one with Rand/Egwene from the beginning of their mutual journey.  Despite what some say, Cads could not have done it.  At best she could have influenced Rand to hand the seals over, but she could not have pursuaded allmighty Amyrlin that breaking the seals (albeit at the appropriate time) was needed.  I don't think Egwene and Cads even ever met onscreen. 

 

Given the way both Rand's and Egwene's arcs developed over the course of the entire series, I don't believe you could just "insert some random Aes Sedai" here.  Trust and power are heavily involved.  Just like in the rest of the series.  Debate as you will about how this was executed, but Moraine's intended Crowning Moment of Awesome was at the FoM.  It just happened so early as to be overshadowed by the LB.  But without the way Moraine steered the boat, the LB would have gone significantly differently.

 

I agree almost completely.  Part of the issue is that the FoM sequence is rather poorly constructed and it makes Moiraine's arrival something of a deus ex machina.  I suspect that Brandon was in a rush to get to the special effects of the last battle to really spend the time on it that it deserved.  Mileage may vary of course.

 

One thought on Egwene and Cadsuane...  When Cadsuane enters the tent, Egewene notices Rand giving her a nod and thinks that she is something to be addressed later. 

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All in all, Moiraine should have appeared in the book a lot more than she did.  I'm not too critical of her appearances though because I feel like this is something that only RJ could have written properly.  Brandon had no chance at a Moiraine reunion scene so he likely ignored it because of that.  The biggest problem I have is that Moiraine was flat out just clipped from the book.  She was supposed to be absolutely essential to winning the Last Battle - to the point where Min said Rand would almost certainly fail without her.  Yet we saw her do nothing useful that someone else could not have done.  Furthermore, we have no idea what her other two wishes were or what happened to her and Lanfear during their time in the ToG.  I know we know a little bit about what happened, but the whole thing with her wishes was definitely setup as something that would be important to the end and it was just entirely clipped out of the book.

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There was a Moiraine arc? Why did she come back at all? We didn't see any of the potential scenes which would've made her comeback worth it - her reunions with Lan, Siuan, Perrin, etc. More influence on the LB than sitting still in a cave for 3/4 of the book. Anything worth reading, really.

 

You want her to reunite with every single person she's ever met? After Rand and Nyn it's basically the same thing over and over. Tears, some glares, some hugs and some untimely joking in the face of the end of everything. They are nice things to have but not important to the story. And adding those things in would DEFINITELY be giving into what you know the fans want to see - which is what BS was accused of doing in the Demandred thread with the sword fights.

 

She influenced everything Rand did in the final book, even tell him what a dumb idea it is to kill the DO (though, I think more because she didn't think he could or it was not his place to make that choice.) Of course, because of the way she never reveals all her secrets, we have no true idea as to the extent of her contributions.

 

 

 

How about Siuan? They were friends for over 20 years. What about Lan? She was described as a "legend." Moiraine deserved more.

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So....exactly WHY did Rand need Moiriane to win the Last Battle??  there are only two possible reasons I can think of is 1. her pep talk with Egwene or 2. her having Thom with her as he was able to knife a few DF's while mooning over her and his stupid poem.

 

I said it in the Taim thread and i'll say it in this one(and probably a few others as i think this applies).....Had Sanderson spent less time on his OWN character (Androl) and focused more on Jordan's characters... Moiriane could've been bad-ass (as opposed to being assed-OUT of the final book)

 

 

 

Matt should have kept his eye.

Edited by Frost Wynters
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How many POVs does Lan have? Sure Moiraine could have been mentioned at least once... The way it was written it just felt like she didn't even exist. And for Siuan - well, the two of them just deserved to meet. They were the ones to start the whole journey after all.

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Can't stop the feeling that the books would be so much better if RJ wrote them QQ

 

No, I don't agree with this statement AT ALL!  You also fail to understand that Brandon Sanderson wrote what Jordan wanted him to write. It was Jordan's world, his creation or his story. Sandeson did the best he could with another writer's equipment.

 

To be honest, I think Sanderson the better writer over all. His own work [Mistborn, Warbreaker and especially Way of Kings] is fantastic, truly gifted writing style and unique world building.

 

RJ is the one of the master world-builders in fantasy [only Tolkien is greater when it comes to world-building IMO], but he floundered badly with tons of unnecessary details and way too many sub-sub-plots. It bogged down books 7-11 IMO, with only the cleansing of saidin a redeeming scene in the last half of book 9. Yes, he had moments of brilliance [the glass-column sequence in book 4 for example], but he unfortunately also had loads of meandering, boring arcs full of dress smoothing.

 

I am not dissing RJ at all, but it gets my hackles up when someone disses Brandon Sanderson, pretending that every little thing they are unsatisfied with, was his fault.

 

Anyways, I too felt that Moiraine should have had more screen time. She was always, from book 1, a great favourite of mine and I only liked Nynaeve more of all the female characters. The whole book actually felt weirdly disjointed, rushed one moment and meandering filler the next. This is probably due to some parts having been written by Jordan, and some by Sanderson. It is rare that two writers can work together on a story without readers noticing.

 

For example, Raymond E Feist and Janny Wurtz worked together on the most excellent trilogy, "Empire" which was part of Feist's lore yet Wurtz's influence brought something magnificent to the story that is lacking in both authors' stand-alone works. Bring them together, and they are fantastic. Not so perhaps with Jordan and Sanderson.

 

Sanderson also refused to elaborate on plot closures that Jordan didn't provide him with. He refused to invent new plot points etc. Jordan had the last book [last 3 as it turned out] very well planned out, with lots of written pieces. Apparently the whole epilogue was already written by Jordan as well.

Edited by Jingizu_z
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Sanderson also refused to elaborate on plot closures that Jordan didn't provide him with. He refused to invent new plot points etc. Jordan had the last book [last 3 as it turned out] very well planned out, with lots of written pieces. Apparently the whole epilogue was already written by Jordan as well.

Don't agree in one interview BS say that he got cca 200 pages of notes

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"How many POVs does Lan have? Sure Moiraine could have been mentioned at least once... The way it was written it just felt like she didn't even exist."

 

This.

 

Of course, we never got to peek into Lan's head with RJ in the main series, so BS had plenty of freedom to create Lan's PoV, but I found the final result unconvincing. I think we can assume that the three main issues that dominated Lan's worldview and mental state as of KoD were: Malkier/fighting the DO, Moiraine/the broken bond, and Nynaeve. It seems absurd to me that the character would not reflect at all on the fact that 1.) Moiraine has reappeared and 2.) both women are currently hanging out in the Pit of Doom. And have apparently made friends. Instead, Lan just seems to be a camera reporting on the action. Superbly heroic action, of course, because Lan is superbly heroic in the sword-swinging way.

 

And that is, really, one of the main contrasts between the way RJ and BS wrote about war. I always thought it was great that Lan, a typical hero figure, was really just the love interest of a main PoV character. We didn't need to see the perspective of a classic hero (and his heroism was also portrayed as resulting from a totally messed-up death wish!) because RJ's war scenes were anything but heroic. Sure, our characters do what they must as well as they can, but it doesn't make battles any less awful. BS's war has that, sometimes, but then you also get a series of majestic last charges, seen from the PoV of a traditional hero. Which means that this story of war shifts into the same mode - uplifting, dramatic, unrealistic - that made Tenobia what she is :)

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Let's not forget that Moiraine was no longer a very strong channeler because of her captivity with the 'Finns. She may not have done much at Shayol Ghul physically, but Rand needed someone he could absolutely trust to link with him, someone who was not needed elsewhere.

Actually with her item of power she was as strong if not more so than before.

 

Total agreement with Luckers. Her showing up and "reminding" everyone of prophecies /role ahe played was not well done.

 

This.

 

She just beat everyone over the head until they did 'the right thing'.   Didn't feel like Moraine.  Wasn't handled well.  It wasn't a very emotional 'homecoming'.  And then she was basically just a Saidar reserve for the rest of the book.

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Re: how was Moiraine so crucial: I can just about believe Moiraine was absolutely necessary because Rand needed her in Shayol Ghul. Even though it wasn't (and should have been) explicitly stated, there wasn't really anyone else apart from Nynaeve whom

1) Rand trusted not to betray him

2) was powerful enough to actually contribute (well, thanks to her convenient angreal from the 'Finn), and

3) Rand would feel comfortable in asking to risk her life

 

Amongst the channelers, only Nynaeve and Moiraine fit the bill. Even to the end, Rand always thought of Egwene as someone needing protection, and he loved Elayne and Aviendha too much to risk them or to put them through the sight of him dying to save the world. Moiraine on the other hand always struck me as the mother he never had - exactly the sort of person he'd ask to join him in the Pit of Doom.

 

All my thoughts, obviously, but I'd have been satisfied with this as an explanation.

 

 

 

And yes, they owed us that reunion with Siuan that I waited for and never got. It didn't even need to be an extended scene. I'd have been happy enough with Rand or Egwene catching sight of them sitting together and holding hands, and just generally getting to say the things they never got to say to each other before Siuan gets obliterated without the benefit of an on-screen death.

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I'm agree she should have been in the book more, but I think over all her arc was really good.  I honestly liked her telling of the prophecies.  The way she told them, for me, made them all easier to understand, gave them more meaning.  I have to admit that some of them I didn't quite understand until she recited them like she did.  I think that was very well done and enjoyed it very much.  I honestly would have cut out some of the POVs which I don't believe added anything to the story and put in some more hers and Nyn's.  So yeah, other than her lack of exposure in the book, I think her arc was awesome and very fitting.

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@orient I don't have the book on me right now, but was Moiraine even able to use that convenient angreal of hers at Shayol Ghul? I remember Cadsuane made Nynaeve take hers off at the Cleansing because she couldn't use it and the Choedan Kal simultaneously.

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@orient I don't have the book on me right now, but was Moiraine even able to use that convenient angreal of hers at Shayol Ghul? I remember Cadsuane made Nynaeve take hers off at the Cleansing because she couldn't use it and the Choedan Kal simultaneously.

 

Hmm I don't recall them saying one way or another in aMoL, but surely Nynaeve at the Cleansing was a different case. In that one Nynaeve would have to use 2 items at the same time; here Moiraine would simply have to use an angreal and join in a circle with someone using a sa'angreal (Moridin using Callandor).

 

It's not explicitly stated of course, so I could be just making up my own explanation.

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I think Moiraine definitely should have come back from the Finns with the conclusive knowledge that Callandor could magnify the TP and that they could use it to trap a man in a circle.

 

That would have justified her absence from these books for so long.

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