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Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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I personally feel that there was no real justification for Egwene’s death. Killing Taim and the Sharans? Bah! It just doesn’t sit with me. The reasons seemed forced and like it was just used for shock value. Egwene had SO much more ahead of her. Yes she sometimes acted a bit immaturely, but she was really young! She would only have kept maturing. And she was always held up as this character that you KNEW was going to go a long way, and was going to become one of the great Amyrlin’s.

 

For me the series is just ruined by this. I will never be able to read her storylines the same way again. Also, she was the only main character to die, and while many other fantasy series have main characters disposed of left right and centre, it is just isn’t fitting for this fantasy series. Nothing so drastic has ever happened before, it just doesn’t feel right or complement the previous books.

 

 

I agree. There was absolutely no reason for her death.

 

After all she has done, she died facing alright i admit a crazy new age chosen. But where is the reward for it? what did she save?

 

To me it felt like harriet and sanderson were stung by criticism of no major character hitting the bucket and they went through a list of emond fielder's and thought.

 

cant have him,

 

nope

 

err no

 

outrriger sigh no

 

 

hmph possibly......

 

 

Personally i feel though her death is not even the major issue. The issue we have is how brandon literally ruined her as a character.  Just like he ruined mat and aviendha. The last book i genuinely thought was egwene was way back in TGS which unsurprisingly was all jordan.

 

The only person he got remotely right was perrin which suprise suprise was his fave character

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Egwene is the worst character from the series. From her selfishness to her insistence on the seals not being broken then to be broken by her(?) to wanting Saiden to be tainted again(that would be convinent for her eh?) to wanting the white tower to have leadership of the light's forces. Her ending was also cr@p. Thankfully she died while Tuon lives. 

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Its war. Things dont make sense, things arent fair, people dont live because they have so much ahead of them. One of the main characters had to die for that final battle to have any real impact, and Egwene was the best candidate.

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Didn't the Last queen of Manetheran kill every trolloc when she drew too much of the power after their army failed?

 

Well if what I said above is true, then it is entirely possible that Egwene could kill all the Sharan channelers too

 

Are the Sharan channelers and Tain dead or crystalized?

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I also think a lot of people, male readers in particular short change Egwene in the early books by saying how annoying she is.

When I read it as a young teenager (I think I was 13 or 14 when I read the first 4 books) I thought she was annoying and uptight, always scolding the boys etc. I think she rarely got her own PoV narratives early on, they were mainly Rand and the boys POV's. But reading it now as an adult I totally see it from her side. They're running away from shadow sporn trying to assassinate them and those idiot boys, Matt in particular, never do what they're told. They just do whatever they want with no concern for her or their own safety.

 

Seriously, Matt in Shadar Logoth behaves ridiculously selfishly and the result is Egwene getting lost alone in the woods chased by trollocs. Count the number of times she gets screwed over by their immaturity or just plain not following Moiraine's instructions...

 

Er, no one asked her to leave 2 rivers.

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Egwene is the worst character from the series. From her selfishness to her insistence on the seals not being broken then to be broken by her(?) to wanting Saiden to be tainted again(that would be convinent for her eh?) to wanting the white tower to have leadership of the light's forces. Her ending was also cr@p. Thankfully she died while Tuon lives. 

 

 

Tuon  you say,

 

tuon dead or alive is not in the same league as egwene.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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Think what you want.Looks like great mother Egwene is dead and crystalized? LOL. Remember the conversation we had months back when I predicted that Egwene will be dead meat while Logain will rule for a long time?

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Think what you want.Looks like great mother Egwene is dead and crystalized? LOL. Remember the conversation we had months back when I predicted that Egwene will be dead meat while Logain will rule for a long time?

 

Give yourself a pat in the back for that prediction.

 

As for logain well let's just say without egwene logain would have been stilled or executed by arangar.

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Egwene is the worst character from the series. From her selfishness to her insistence on the seals not being broken then to be broken by her(?) to wanting Saiden to be tainted again(that would be convinent for her eh?) to wanting the white tower to have leadership of the light's forces. Her ending was also cr@p. Thankfully she died while Tuon lives.

Seriously what is wrong with you xxx? Your are either trolling or have no concept of what you are reading. She didn't actually want Saidin to be tainted, Moiriane told her she needed to break the seals and her death helped heal the pattern itself. Her ending was well done, even people who dislike her have been claiming that.

 

Lastly contrary to what you have so shrilly claimed over and over we now see the direct balance between Dragon/Amyrlin and how they both have a connection to the land. Balance is the main theme of the books and it was highlighted in this instance.

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Egwene is the worst character from the series. From her selfishness to her insistence on the seals not being broken then to be broken by her(?) to wanting Saiden to be tainted again(that would be convinent for her eh?) to wanting the white tower to have leadership of the light's forces. Her ending was also cr@p. Thankfully she died while Tuon lives.

Seriously what is wrong with you xxx? Your are either trolling or have no concept of what you are reading. She didn't actually want Saidin to be tainted, Moiriane told her she needed to break the seals and her death helped heal the pattern itself. Her ending was well done, even people who dislike her have been claiming that.

 

Lastly contrary to what you have so shrilly claimed over and over we now see the direct balance between Dragon/Amyrlin and how they both have a connection to the land. Balance is the main theme of the books and it was highlighted in this instance.

 

 

There is no connection between Egwene and the land like what Rand has.Did the grass grow green around her? Did sunlight show where she walked?.The Dragon is a special soul.Egwene is not.She is not even a hero of the horn.Taking some of Egwene's own observations when she held Saider and connecting it to what Rand does with his very presence(not the OP) is quite a stretch.

 

She did not want Saiden tainted? She suggested Rand do the same thing he did in the last age and then said we are prepared to handle tainted Saiden this time.What book are you reading?

Edited by XXX47
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I blame Gawyn for his stupidity in this book. Seriously he must know what will happen to Egwen when he went after dema ??? :/
 

 

I do too (I dont consider that bad writing, Gawyn is just a bad person. Or at least a giant selfish dumbass of epic proportions). If Gawyn would have distributed those rings, how many Dreadlord and Sharan channelers could have been taken out? Dozens certainly, probably more than that.  Same goes for Galad (he should have kept killing minions) and Logain. For some reason almost everybody on the field tasked with killing enemy channelers decided to try their luck with Demandred instead.

Edited by mbuehner
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I wasn't too shocked that she died. She was the only one of the mains nearly as awesomesauce as Rand and it had to stop once the transitory stage from one age to the next ended. It was sad, even for someone mostly indifferent to her. But I did wish we had a glimpse of her family reacting to her death.

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I blame Gawyn for his stupidity in this book. Seriously he must know what will happen to Egwen when he went after dema ??? :/
 

 

I do too (I dont consider that bad writing, Gawyn is just a bad person. Or at least a giant selfish dumbass of epic proportions). If Gawyn would have distributed those rings, how many Dreadlord and Sharan channelers could have been taken out? Dozens certainly, probably more than that.  Same goes for Galad (he should have kept killing minions) and Logain. For some reason almost everybody on the field tasked with killing enemy channelers decided to try their luck with Demandred instead.

I dont have problems with rings i have problem with his thinking seriously he was warden and he must know what will happen if he die

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Egwene is the worst character from the series. From her selfishness to her insistence on the seals not being broken then to be broken by her(?) to wanting Saiden to be tainted again(that would be convinent for her eh?) to wanting the white tower to have leadership of the light's forces. Her ending was also cr@p. Thankfully she died while Tuon lives.

Seriously what is wrong with you xxx? Your are either trolling or have no concept of what you are reading. She didn't actually want Saidin to be tainted, Moiriane told her she needed to break the seals and her death helped heal the pattern itself. Her ending was well done, even people who dislike her have been claiming that.

 

Lastly contrary to what you have so shrilly claimed over and over we now see the direct balance between Dragon/Amyrlin and how they both have a connection to the land. Balance is the main theme of the books and it was highlighted in this instance.

 

There is no connection between Egwene and the land like what Rand has.Did the grass grow green around her? Did sunlight show where she walked?.The Dragon is a special soul.Egwene is not.She is not even a hero of the horn.Taking some of Egwene's own observations when she held Saider and connecting it to what Rand does with his very presence(not the OP) is quite a stretch.

 

She did not want Saiden tainted? She suggested Rand do the same thing he did in the last age and then said we are prepared to handle tainted Saiden this time.What book are you reading?

 

 It was brought up and then quickly dissmissed. She did not seriously "want saidin to be tainted again" as you claim above.

 

Further the connection the land is made clear and then hammered home even more so with her healing the pattern with her death.

 

 

Terez: One thing I noticed on reread is that Egwene mirrors Rand's bond to the land:

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMOL 5

Rand closed his eyes. He could feel it, the land itself, like a faint Warder bond. Beneath his feet, grubs crawled through the soil. The roots of the grasses continued to spread, ever so slowly, seeking nutrients. The skeletal trees were not dead, for water seeped through them. They slumbered. Bluebirds clustered in a nearby tree. They did not call out with the arrival of dawn. They huddled together, as if for warmth.

 

The land still lived. It lived like a man clinging to the edge of a cliff by his fingertips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMOL 13

Within the embrace of saidar she could see the signs of color that the Shadow wanted them to ignore. The grass wasn't all dead; there were tiny hints of green, slivers where the grass clung to life. There were voles beneath it; she could now easily make out the ripples in the earth. They ate at the dying roots and clung to life....

 

....Egwene returned to rupturing the earth. There was something energizing about using raw power, sending weaves in their most basic forms. In that moment—maiming, destroying, bringing death upon the enemy—she felt as if she were one with the land itself. That she was doing the work it had longed for someone to do for so long. The Blight, and the Shadowspawn it grew, were a disease. An infection. Egwene—afire with the One Power, a blazing beacon of death and judgment—was the cauterizing flame that would bring healing to the land.

 

 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Er, Egwene holds Saidar it enhances senses,she feels growth. Rand does not hold Saiden.His very presence causes things to happen around him.Grass grows again,trees grow,apples become good,food becomes unspoiled. Yes both have a similar connection to land. :rolleyes:

 

She did not want Saiden tainted? She suggests that Rand do the same as he did last time and says that they are ready for the taint this time. Maybe she said it in jest.I did not get that impression.

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Egwene is the worst character from the series. From her selfishness to her insistence on the seals not being broken then to be broken by her(?) to wanting Saiden to be tainted again(that would be convinent for her eh?) to wanting the white tower to have leadership of the light's forces. Her ending was also cr@p. Thankfully she died while Tuon lives.

Seriously what is wrong with you xxx? Your are either trolling or have no concept of what you are reading. She didn't actually want Saidin to be tainted, Moiriane told her she needed to break the seals and her death helped heal the pattern itself. Her ending was well done, even people who dislike her have been claiming that.

 

Lastly contrary to what you have so shrilly claimed over and over we now see the direct balance between Dragon/Amyrlin and how they both have a connection to the land. Balance is the main theme of the books and it was highlighted in this instance.

 

 

There is no connection between Egwene and the land like what Rand has.Did the grass grow green around her? Did sunlight show where she walked?.The Dragon is a special soul.Egwene is not.She is not even a hero of the horn.Taking some of Egwene's own observations when she held Saider and connecting it to what Rand does with his very presence(not the OP) is quite a stretch.

 

She did not want Saiden tainted? She suggested Rand do the same thing he did in the last age and then said we are prepared to handle tainted Saiden this time.What book are you reading?

 

I agree about Egwene's supposed "connection" to the land. Yes, what she did put a patch on the damage, but she had no connection to the land the way Rand has a connection to the land. That was just her ego, as usual, because she couldn't stand Rand being more important than her.

 

As far as her wanting saidin tainted...I hate Egwene as much or more than anyone and i don't think she was saying she wanted it to be tainted. She was saying that it was an acceptable price for sealing away the DO, though. I think, in her little brain, she had convinced herself that he should repeat what LTT had done, with the probability of saidin being tainted right along with it, instead of risking a worse outcome (in her mind) than saidin being tainted. What Rand should've told the little arrogant turd is that saidar would've likely been tainted as well had women gone with LTT to the Bore and asked her if that was an acceptable outcome as well. Her tantrum after such a declaration would've been fun to watch, and would've given Moiraine a much more interesting time of making peace between Egwene and Rand - especially after both she and Nynaeve declared they were accompanying Rand to the Bore whether Egwene liked it or not so it would be a matter of "either the seals get broken and Rand does this the right way or they don't get broken and your precious sa'angreal will drive you batsh!te crazy when the DO makes his counterstroke...so make your choice, Egwene...".

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To be clear I don't think anyone is saying there is a "one with the land" connection that is the same as the Dragon/Fisher King legend. What was said is for her to fix the pattern and there to be male/female balance she needed to the mirror that bond. The connection certainly goes far deeper than your average channeler in what she senses. Those two passages draw a very clear connection between what they are feeling. It certainly had nothing to do with her being mad Rand was more important. It set up teh healing down the road. Dom over at Theoryland has written a very long post on this. Will try and link it over.

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Not knowing where else to fit this but:

 

GAWYN IS NOT A MORON.

 

There.  I said it.  I never particularly liked his character, but after a number of missteps he made a couple key saves, namely:

 

- Egwene's 3 assassins, enabling Egwene to 'tard a forsaken and participate in the LB

- Egwene after Sharan attack.  Leilwin was important but without Gawyn, Egwene didn't stand a chance

 

While his character gets a lot of flak for the decision, his notion to go after Demandred alone wasn't that stupid.  He had no way of knowing Demandred was the best swordsman in 3000 years, while Gawyn had ample combat evidence that he was probably one of the best swordsmen in the world, and Gawyn wore Seanchan rings so potent most Seanchan thought death from a ring-wearer is a forgone conclusion.

 

Later, Mat validates Gawyns strategy by essentially sending two other swordsmen on the exact same mission.  Third time's a charm, I guess.

 

I feel like his character is being vilified because he didn't succeed.  Doesn't that demonstrate Rand's point about the Light?  That even if there's no hope of success, they'll try anyway?  Even if they fail, they'll keep coming?  If Sanderson had decided to make Gawyn the one that killed Demandred, I'm pretty sure you'd all be singing his praises right now.

 

On a side note, I wish it had been Mat to kill Demandred.  Would have been a more interesting end to me if, after Tuon's army showed up again and put Demandred's army on the ropes, Demandred went nuts and just started cutting his way through the forces of Light, dispatching Galad then Lan and finally getting his head cut off by Mat in an homage to Couladin.  This ending would have emphasized Jordan's (and Mat's, and Hammar's) earlier assertion of quarterstaff ueber alles.

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Would Gawyn not know that Demandred was good at war and the things associated with it  well i think that is pretty unlikely.

Edited by Treeberad
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Not knowing where else to fit this but:

 

GAWYN IS NOT A MORON.

 

There.  I said it.  I never particularly liked his character, but after a number of missteps he made a couple key saves, namely:

 

- Egwene's 3 assassins, enabling Egwene to 'tard a forsaken and participate in the LB

- Egwene after Sharan attack.  Leilwin was important but without Gawyn, Egwene didn't stand a chance

 

While his character gets a lot of flak for the decision, his notion to go after Demandred alone wasn't that stupid.  He had no way of knowing Demandred was the best swordsman in 3000 years, while Gawyn had ample combat evidence that he was probably one of the best swordsmen in the world, and Gawyn wore Seanchan rings so potent most Seanchan thought death from a ring-wearer is a forgone conclusion.

 

Later, Mat validates Gawyns strategy by essentially sending two other swordsmen on the exact same mission.  Third time's a charm, I guess.

 

I feel like his character is being vilified because he didn't succeed.  Doesn't that demonstrate Rand's point about the Light?  That even if there's no hope of success, they'll try anyway?  Even if they fail, they'll keep coming?  If Sanderson had decided to make Gawyn the one that killed Demandred, I'm pretty sure you'd all be singing his praises right now.

 

On a side note, I wish it had been Mat to kill Demandred.  Would have been a more interesting end to me if, after Tuon's army showed up again and put Demandred's army on the ropes, Demandred went nuts and just started cutting his way through the forces of Light, dispatching Galad then Lan and finally getting his head cut off by Mat in an homage to Couladin.  This ending would have emphasized Jordan's (and Mat's, and Hammar's) earlier assertion of quarterstaff ueber alles.

 

Well  I am sorry my english isnt best and maybe i wrote my post wrong or not enought explanation......  I think his behavior was weird. He know what can happen to Aes Sedia if warden dies and he was bound to most important Aes Sedai on battlefield and even with these knowledge he went after Demadred and therefore both sentenced to death.
 
I can understand if he die when defending Egwen on battlefield and after his death Aes Sedai get Egwen away from battlefield etc... then I Am able to accept this ending.
 
Btw  Mat didnt send anybody. Galand wanted revenge for Gawyn and Lan got his own choice 
 
and seriously it is only weird for me that one of main characters is after  death and only think in the end only something like : she is dead .. oh how sad  thats all ?? nothing like funeral or something else  ??   
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Egwene is the worst character from the series. From her selfishness to her insistence on the seals not being broken then to be broken by her(?) to wanting Saiden to be tainted again(that would be convinent for her eh?) to wanting the white tower to have leadership of the light's forces. Her ending was also cr@p. Thankfully she died while Tuon lives.

Seriously what is wrong with you xxx? Your are either trolling or have no concept of what you are reading. She didn't actually want Saidin to be tainted, Moiriane told her she needed to break the seals and her death helped heal the pattern itself. Her ending was well done, even people who dislike her have been claiming that.

 

Lastly contrary to what you have so shrilly claimed over and over we now see the direct balance between Dragon/Amyrlin and how they both have a connection to the land. Balance is the main theme of the books and it was highlighted in this instance.

 

There is no connection between Egwene and the land like what Rand has.Did the grass grow green around her? Did sunlight show where she walked?.The Dragon is a special soul.Egwene is not.She is not even a hero of the horn.Taking some of Egwene's own observations when she held Saider and connecting it to what Rand does with his very presence(not the OP) is quite a stretch.

 

She did not want Saiden tainted? She suggested Rand do the same thing he did in the last age and then said we are prepared to handle tainted Saiden this time.What book are you reading?

 

 It was brought up and then quickly dissmissed. She did not seriously "want saidin to be tainted again" as you claim above.

 

Further the connection the land is made clear and then hammered home even more so with her healing the pattern with her death.

 

That whole sequence is rather poorly constructed but I think that a blanket allegation of 'troll-ness' for citing it is a little overdone.

 

She is obtuse and stubborn about breaking the seals and she does seriously suggest a course of action that would essentially repeat LTT's mistake.  And, given the circumstances of the confrontation between Rand and Egwene in the tent, Rand's response about the taint does fit. 

 

--

"Is that so bad?" Egwene said.  "At least it's sure. You sealed the Bore last time.  You know how to do it."

"We could end up with the taint again."

"We're ready for it, this time.  No, it wouldn't be ideal.  But Rand.... do we really want to risk this?  Risk the fate of every living being?  Why not take the simple path, the known path?  Mend the seals again.  Shore up the prison."

"No, Egwene."  Rand backed away.  "Light! Is this what it's about?  You want saidin to be tainted again..."

--

 

Obviously, Rand's reaction here isn't the best.  However, it is understandable emotional reaction given what Rand has experienced as a result of being a male channeler. He's felt the direct effects of the taint, lived with the fear of being gentled, and  endured the stigma related to men channeling.  (Somewhat, ironically in the last case, given her reaction to him in the last chapter of TEOTW.) But if we look at what Egwene's proposed course of action, it does have the potential to result in the taint again.  If Rand attempts to seal the bore again and the Dark Lord counters in the same way Saidin gets tainted.  If Egwene attempts to seal the bore the same way... the taint happens.  If both men and women work together to seal the bore in the same way both sides of the source get tainted.  Egwene may not have wanted the taint, but the taint may very well be an unintended consequence of her stated position in this argument.

 

On the whole 'balance' thing it may well be a feature of this book.  I don't necessarily buy it at this point because it feels too much like a Sanderson invention without significant foreshadowing in the earlier RJ books which makes me tend to think of it as a bug rather than a feature.

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There is no connection between Egwene and the land like what Rand has.Did the grass grow green around her? Did sunlight show where she walked?.The Dragon is a special soul.Egwene is not.She is not even a hero of the horn.Taking some of Egwene's own observations when she held Saider and connecting it to what Rand does with his very presence(not the OP) is quite a stretch.

 

She did not want Saiden tainted? She suggested Rand do the same thing he did in the last age and then said we are prepared to handle tainted Saiden this time.What book are you reading?

 

 It was brought up and then quickly dissmissed. She did not seriously "want saidin to be tainted again" as you claim above.

 

Further the connection the land is made clear and then hammered home even more so with her healing the pattern with her death.

 

That whole sequence is rather poorly constructed but I think that a blanket allegation of 'troll-ness' for citing it is a little overdone.

 

She is obtuse and stubborn about breaking the seals and she does seriously suggest a course of action that would essentially repeat LTT's mistake.  And, given the circumstances of the confrontation between Rand and Egwene in the tent, Rand's response about the taint does fit. 

 

--

"Is that so bad?" Egwene said.  "At least it's sure. You sealed the Bore last time.  You know how to do it."

"We could end up with the taint again."

"We're ready for it, this time.  No, it wouldn't be ideal.  But Rand.... do we really want to risk this?  Risk the fate of every living being?  Why not take the simple path, the known path?  Mend the seals again.  Shore up the prison."

"No, Egwene."  Rand backed away.  "Light! Is this what it's about?  You want saidin to be tainted again..."

--

 

Obviously, Rand's reaction here isn't the best.  However, it is understandable emotional reaction given what Rand has experienced as a result of being a male channeler. He's felt the direct effects of the taint, lived with the fear of being gentled, and  endured the stigma related to men channeling.  (Somewhat, ironically in the last case, given her reaction to him in the last chapter of TEOTW.) But if we look at what Egwene's proposed course of action, it does have the potential to result in the taint again.  If Rand attempts to seal the bore again and the Dark Lord counters in the same way Saidin gets tainted.  If Egwene attempts to seal the bore the same way... the taint happens.  If both men and women work together to seal the bore in the same way both sides of the source get tainted.  Egwene may not have wanted the taint, but the taint may very well be an unintended consequence of her stated position in this argument.

 

On the whole 'balance' thing it may well be a feature of this book.  I don't necessarily buy it at this point because it feels too much like a Sanderson invention without significant foreshadowing in the earlier RJ books which makes me tend to think of it as a bug rather than a feature.

 

I don't think Egwene saw the retainting of saidin as an "unintended consequence". She knew that it would likely be tainted again if Rand repeated what LTT had done, and found that an acceptable price for sealing away the DO because she thought the price of breaking the seals and Rand doing something else might be worse than that (for her, the AS, and the world as a whole). It was a cold thing to say, does not present her character in a very good light, and clearly shows that she doesn't understand in the least what it was like to be a male channeler before (and after, really) Rand Healed the taint. But it is understandable given her extreme fear of breaking the seals since, in her eyes, doing that will destroy everything. She was not willing to even consider that it was the right thing to do.

 

Likewise, I don't see anything wrong with Rand's reaction to what she said, since she was, in effect, saying that she was fine with saidin being tainted again, with the reasoning that "we know how to handle it this time" (i.e., sever all male channelers, which will ultimately kill them). If someone stood in front of you and said they didn't really care if what was going to happen meant you and all of your kind would be slaughtered again after suffering from a horrible mental illness (and being treated as criminals for something they can't control, because I can guarantee that would have continued), then you wouldn't be so happy with them either. Rand was completely justified in his reaction.

 

On the balance thing...no, I don't buy it either. Egwene is not the Dragon's equal. Her actions did not bring "balance" to the world. All she did was provide a temporary bandaid over the damage caused by the balefire. There's no way in hell she's as important, or as connected to the land, as Rand. In fact, I don't see her as being any more connected to the land than any other channeler. She just happened to be in the right place at the right time because she was too egocentric to let someone else take the sa'angreal and face Taim. In the end, her "I have to do it all because no one is as awesome as me!" attitude led her to her death, one which she embraced fully once she realized she had burned herself out from channeling too much (something that should've been obvious to everyone around her given how she was constantly channeling and doing it all herself).

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