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Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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I think that's my only problem with Rand's story arc. I felt that while

many things happened to him and he had the world on his shoulders for

quite some time, other characters ultimately paid a greater price then

he did. Perhaps it would have been a major sacrifice if none of his

wives survived unscathed or his friends all died or lost loved ones to

give him time during his various confrontations with The Dark One, but

as it is, he got off pretty well. He has an attractive new body to

galivant around the world in, his wives are alive and he can surely

visit them in secret if he wants to and he has the freedom to start over

again if he so chooses, to live a new life. He didn't want to be a king

or have temporal authority in the first place, so it's not as if giving

up riches and influence is a big deal for him. This may be where RJ

might have changed things after getting to the end after writing a few

drafts.

 

I get what you're saying, but I think Rand suffered mentally and emotionally more than most of the other characters.  Yes, perhaps he didn't have as many tangible losses as some of the others, but he spent pretty much the whole series pretty certain he was going to die.  He obviously also struggled massively with the enormous responsibility he felt, initially the women who died for him, evolving to pretty much the future of the entire world. 

 

From my perspective, suffering is so subjective that it can be hard to gauge. There is probably a reason why sacrificing your life or a loved one is called the ultimate price, while suffering from self-induced stress or self hatred is rarely in the same category. A lot of his suffering was self-inflicted. At the end of the day, though, Rand suffered but didn't have to pay a price. Most of the heaviest prices were paid by other characters and he comes out of this pretty well set up as an everyman, but he never really evolved past that phase in the way I feel Egwene, Annoura or some other characters did.

I agree to some extent.  I would say that Rand had a harder journey (losing a hand, being caged in a box, being controlled into trying to kill Min, having to watch people he cared about die to protect him, facing madness from the taint, facing what he believed was his inevitable death, continual agony from his wound, etc. (none of which was self-inflicted)) but a happier ending (going off to live his life 'normally' with his loved ones), compared to Egwene who had an easier journey (easier being used relatively here - her battles were mainly political rather than having to watch people she loved die for her, her trials under Elaida were unpleasant but her life wasn't at risk and she wasn't in continual pain, her time as a damane was horrific but probably not quite as horrific as Rand's capture and extreme confinement by the Red Ajah) but a much worse ending (Gawyn's death, her own sacrifice).

 

I don't think that Rand's suffering is lessened by his ending - he wasn't aware while he was suffering that he would have a happy ending.  In fact quite the opposite, which makes his suffering more noble, imo.  Equally, Egwene's sacrifice is particularly noble because she had so much to give up.  She had married Gawyn, gained power over the Aes Sedai and believed she would live for centuries, leading the channeling women of the world to a better understanding and acceptance of their responsibilities.

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Eg's death was pointless. I mean: Rand/Perrin/Mat/El/Nyn etc is alive. So come on! 

 

(OK, Mat has plot armor - the outriggers - see Jordan's blog. Rand: to live you have to die - hmm, ok. El - twins, Avi - double twins.)

 

He wanted (or Sanderson?) to give us a bittersweet ending but every ending is bittersweet. 

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Did RJ intend for Egwene to die, or was it Brandon's idea? He's being coy about that, if you can believe it.

 

Per the Birmingham thread:

 

 

Here is part 2 of the Q&A, the questions asked of Brandon at the signing table. This does contain spoilers.

 



Individual Questions asked while Brandon was signing books
===========================================================================================================

Question: Egwene, was that your idea or Robert Jordan’s?
Brandon: I haven’t been telling people about that one specifically. Almost all the deaths in the book were RJ’s instructions, but I did choose a few of them. So, it could been either one of us.

 

That's pretty mind-boggling to me that he would even hint that something as big as this might not have been per RJ.

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I was extremely surprised at her death.  The circumstances were fitting for a character as strong as hers, but I felt like her character had been left open for more development.   She still appeared to fluctuate between great leader and stubborn stupid (though perhaps that was poor characterization in the last 3 books).  I also felt like there are a lot of important issues to face Aes Sedai in the upcoming future -- e.g. regarding the Seanchan and regarding the issues that Nynaeve brought up in her testing -- and that it seemed only natural that Egwene be the one to lead them through that.

 

Brandon Sanderson leaving it open for debate is very suggestive.  Then again, that would also imply that he chose to kill both Gawyn and Egwene, because I cannot imagine one surviving without the other.  And Gawyn's death felt pretty natural and planned.  Probably the most natural in the entire book.

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So sanderclown confirmed what we all knew. He killed egwene and gawyn. I knew it. And it's a big egg on those who claimed egwene's death was RJ.

 

It just didnt make any sense. when you have went through pages and pages of character development and yet be the sole death amongst the emond's fielders then it's time to be suspcious.

 

The lack of reaction from the characters to egwene's death and cadusuane bit in the epilogue was just the confirmation to the nth degree

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Sanderclown? You embarrass yourself.

 

And did Brandon confirm it? Even if it was Brandon's choice, Eggy's and Gawyn's death were prophesied as a possibility. Or at least Gawyn's. Eggy had a dream about how Gawyn could choose to marry her or not, and that one possibility would lead to an early death, while the other would lead to dying peacefully as an old man, without clarifying which one led to what.

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So sanderclown confirmed what we all knew. He killed egwene and gawyn. I knew it. And it's a big egg on those who claimed egwene's death was RJ.

 

It just didnt make any sense. when you have went through pages and pages of character development and yet be the sole death amongst the emond's fielders then it's time to be suspcious.

 

The lack of reaction from the characters to egwene's death and cadusuane bit in the epilogue was just the confirmation to the nth degree

He confirmed no such thing. Get a grip.

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Actually, it is much more likely that RJ planned Egwene's death.  Brandon's comment was only that most of the deaths were RJ, he had been able to decide a few.  We know for a fact that RJ wrote the epilogue (apart from Cadsuane's POV), and is this Rand refers to Cadsuane being cornered (which couldn't be the case if Egwene was going to be alive).

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Actually, it is much more likely that RJ planned Egwene's death.  Brandon's comment was only that most of the deaths were RJ, he had been able to decide a few.  We know for a fact that RJ wrote the epilogue (apart from Cadsuane's POV), and is this Rand refers to Cadsuane being cornered (which couldn't be the case if Egwene was going to be alive).

Brandon has also said that Cadsuane's becoming Amyrlin was specifically in RJ's notes, but he doesn't know how she'll deal with it, since she was apparently planning to remove the Oaths and retire into the Kin.

 

What could be possible is that Egwene's death wasn't final, and that she too comes back, but refuses to be Amyrlin. Brandon has said that RJ had left several details up in the air, giving him a choice of which path to follow. This might be one of them. The actual death itself fits too well, both with foreshadowing, and the mountain (!!!) of LTT and Rand parallels, for me to believe Brandon fabricated it whole cloth. 

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If egwene's death was RJs sanderclown would have no hesitation in saying so. The fact that he's dillydallying around the issue and leaving up in the air is his way of shirking from answering the question truthfully. He cant lie since there are other people with access to Rj's notes.

 

Anyways i am glad my hunches proved right from the start.

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If egwene's death was RJs sanderclown would have no hesitation in saying so. The fact that he's dillydallying around the issue and leaving up in the air is his way of shirking from answering the question truthfully. He cant lie since there are other people with access to Rj's notes.

 

Anyways i am glad my hunches proved right from the start.

:rolleyes: He could also be saying that to keep up some amount of suspense. 

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Actually, it is much more likely that RJ planned Egwene's death.  Brandon's comment was only that most of the deaths were RJ, he had been able to decide a few.  We know for a fact that RJ wrote the epilogue (apart from Cadsuane's POV), and is this Rand refers to Cadsuane being cornered (which couldn't be the case if Egwene was going to be alive).

Brandon has also said that Cadsuane's becoming Amyrlin was specifically in RJ's notes, but he doesn't know how she'll deal with it, since she was apparently planning to remove the Oaths and retire into the Kin.

 

Is this what you're talking about?

 

Terez

There was some discussion about Brandon's suggestion that RJ wrote the entire epilogue, since we knew from his tweets while he was working on it that he had to modify the epilogue material, and we knew from Peter that Brandon wrote the Cadsuane scene (and possibly others; this has never been clarified). In the comments on this post on Facebook, Isabel asked some questions and got some answers from Peter. The last quote is from Dragonmount, in response to some fan assumptions about how much had been written by RJ.

Isabel (9 January 2013)

One question: regarding the Cadsuane scene. It is said that this was added by you. Is that correct? Was Cadsuane's fate in RJ's notes?

Peter Ahlstrom (9 January 2013)

Team Jordan said I could say that Brandon himself wrote the words of that little scene. Brandon is still being closedmouthed about what specifically came from the notes, but in general, Robert Jordan left quite a few notes on where people ended up at the end of the book.

Isabel

Am I right to assume that her implied fate wouldn't have been put in, if the notes say something different? (assuming there were notes on it)

Peter Ahlstrom

The notes about fates at the end were not contradicted.

Peter Ahlstrom

What Brandon was given from RJ specifically on the last three books was 200 manuscript pages containing some finished scenes (including the final scene) and some summaries of other scenes, some lines of dialogue here and there, some "I might do this, or I might do this," etc. It's definitely not the last 120 pages of the book.

 

I couldn't find anything else on Cadsuane in the epilogue, but I'm hardly an expert as to all the random interviews, chats, whatevers.

Edited by Hybrid
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I think there is a bit in Rand's POV in the epilogie (which was written by RJ) that mentions Cadsuane being cornered by the AS who plan to make her Amyrling (not anything to do with Cadsuane's POV which was written by BS).

 

I think it is fairly conclusive that RJ had planned Egwene's death because we know it was in his notes that Cadsuane becomes Amyrlin.  I think its ridiculous/petty of BS not to just come out and tells us it was RJ though.

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Sanderclown? You embarrass yourself.

 

They call him Sanderson the Hated in other forums. And they compare the last three novels to the Dune travesty, so i think it's high time to publish the notes. If there is anything at all...

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Apologies, Cloudflare has decided to turn it's wrath upon me of late. 

 

Anyway, I won't remove anything, since it's already been said and seen by now, however - let's not stoop to base insults in name-calling. There are plenty of ways to express discontent with Mr. Sanderson. Whatever his faults, he deserves the same respect as every member of this forum shares. 

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@xxx

 

Serious question for you here. Why are you so adamant about not giving her any credit whatsoever for her role in the LB(and you laughingly say to fionwe "I know this is hard for you to hear" in your post above. Can you not see how ironic that is given the topic)? You have moved the goal posts so many times about what her involvement would be. Pre AMoL you were saying she would do nothing of importance at the LB, had nothing to offer Rand in terms of information for sealing the DO, had no right to question his plans, the WT's time had past, etc. Now that it is plain how things had to fall out and that she played about as large a role as anyone aside from Rand you still try to deny what was written. What is the big deal to just admitting what happens in the books? Rand is the DR, the CoL...Egwene doing what she did does not in anyway threaten who he is or take away from how big his contributions were. Do you just not want to admit that you were wrong?

Of course he won't admit anything. His conception of the series depends on his idea that Egwene is a nobody. Why would something like facts change that?

 

Nobody no, equal of Rand the DR in any shape or form?  :laugh:

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I think Egwene's death would have worked better if the reaction to it was more than four throwaway lines from Leanne, Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve. That was just dumb, and completely unrealistic. Elayne couldn't possibly have reacted to it as sanguinely as she's depicted to. Would have been nice to see the WO mourn too, as well as her closest Aes Sedai friends.

 

I felt it was completely absurd that we didn't get some of that in Rand's last PoV. Maybe RJ would have added it in his second pass at the scene, and Brandon just didn't want to change what RJ wrote, but to me, it seemed like it would have been perfect if, when Rand left SG, he planned to make a trip of the world, but start with a trip to Merrilor to pay his respects to the fallen heroes, Egwene at the top of the list. It would have been a perfect resolution to the "list", if he planned to go there and make sure all the dead were remembered and honored. Maybe he'd visit the pillar of crystal Egwene left behind, her own Dragonmount, of sorts. 

 

Of course, another thing that would have made this better is if 'the Flame of Tar Valon" had more buildup. Brandon said the weave was noted, so it isn't like the weave was to die with her. I'd have liked to see more discussion of what it was, its connection to cuendillar (if it exists), and how Egwene came up with it. Would have been nice to see some Aes Sedai use it too, to further shore up the Pattern, and kill some Trollocs. Would have been awesome if the remaining AS linked and started throwing it at the Trolloc hordes.

 

Plus, did anyone find it weird that she didn't link with Narishma and Merise? When I saw those two nearby when she was fighting Taim, I thought it was the perfect mirror to Rand facing the DO with a circle. She could have released them and made the conscious choice to overextend herself after Taim was killed. I just found it weird that she never used saidin. Seemed to be a major thematic miss, for me.

 

Er, Egwene pillar is buried under rubble.No dragonmount there!!

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I think it was more thematically appropriate for Egwene to fight with saidar alone. Her whole arc was about the WT and female channelers. Numerous times she considered herself the embodiment of the WT, the Amylin Seat, the flame of Tar Valon etc.

 

Additionally, while conflict was resolved between Egwene and other female characters, she didn't have resolution with male characters (Rand, Gawyn, the Asha'man) before she died. I think it worked better for her to just use Saidar. It made the fight between her (using Saidar) and Taim (using saidin) more of a contrast to Rand's battle using all three powers.

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I am wondering, in the end can we say the Gawyn killed Egwene? Without him dying pointlessly Egwene wouldn't draw as much as she did. Demandred was dead anyway so arguably the army of Light doesn't really need her to wipe out of enemy channelers in one strike. Surely Logain with a circle or maybe with Taim's sa'angreal and wipe them out easily?

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I am wondering, in the end can we say the Gawyn killed Egwene? Without him dying pointlessly Egwene wouldn't draw as much as she did. Demandred was dead anyway so arguably the army of Light doesn't really need her to wipe out of enemy channelers in one strike. Surely Logain with a circle or maybe with Taim's sa'angreal and wipe them out easily?

 

I think at most he could be listed as a contributing factor.  AS don't go into a rage the way Warders do, and while Egwene was obviously upset, she felt she had enough control of herself to return to the battlefield.  Yes, she was angry, and it may have helped her to get carried away with what she was doing, and possibly to change her attitude to death a little.  However, Egwene put the WT and the Light way ahead of Gawyn (and herself) in importance, and I don't think she would have sacrificed her life just because Gawyn had died.  Instead, I think she did so because she believed it was neccessary to repair the pattern and kill Taim.

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I am wondering, in the end can we say the Gawyn killed Egwene? Without him dying pointlessly Egwene wouldn't draw as much as she did. Demandred was dead anyway so arguably the army of Light doesn't really need her to wipe out of enemy channelers in one strike. Surely Logain with a circle or maybe with Taim's sa'angreal and wipe them out easily?

 

No, I think Egwene killed Egwene. While Gawyn's death was a shock it was one she overcame, at least temporarily. I kind of feel she should have tried to beat Taim without resorting to self sacrifice.

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I thought the overdraw was mostly because of her efforts to patch the pattern as opposed to take out Taim.  I agree she should have probably managed that without overdrawing.

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i think gawyn was a contributing factor, his death DID unbalance her, coupled with the weight of responsibility of leading the Tower and something of a martyr complex, its not surprising that egwene died. But to be fair, when Taim used balefire and undid hours of fighting to resurrect dreadlords, she prob panicked a bit as well. Maybe if she had more time, and more support from Logain and the BT for example, she could have won without resorting to her extreme method. Still, overall her life was a fair price to pay to destroy Taim and the Sharans. She won an epic victory. 

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