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Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)


Luckers
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@James

 

There is a long history here of Egwene hate James. It has nothing to do with one being better than the other and everything to do with what actually happened in the story. Some people let AS bias skew everything they do. She isn't one of my top 5 characters but you can only see so many ridiculous statements before you start pointing out the flaws.

 

As for characters comparing phallus size see the lame conversation between Mat and Rand in AMoL.

Interesting you point out about AS bias. I notice with myself when I have an extreme dislike for characters/people (usually on hindsight, irrational), it is usually because I see a quality of the character that I possess. To give an example so it makes more sense - When I was younger, in artistic gymnastics I tend to root for the eastern european countries or Chinese team, and I absolutely despise the American and Japanese team. Completely irrational as I am neither from Eastern Europe or from China. The reason I disliked the American and Japanese team was because I viewed they come from a more affluent backgrounds (developed Nations), whereas the Eastern European and Chinese teams usually come from poverty and trying to escape poverty (over-simplified of course). In a way it was the fact I come from a reasonably well-off family, and I felt somewhat ashamed that I am fortunate to get a headstart in getting a foothold in life, while others could not - and unfortunately projected it onto the American and Japanese teams.

 

I do wonder if there is a projection of certain AS qualities in oneself that people take to hating Egwene/AS so much. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it into the assertions and unequivocal statements.

 

I agree the competition between Matt and Rand was somewhat lame, but I still enjoy it. The heroes state that Matt has done more than enough to be bound to the horn and the competition was a comical take that someone does not necessarily have to have this special place in the pattern to do important things/chosen to do important things/meaningful contribution to the pattern that is just as important as the Dragon.

 

Gah, so tedious trying to sort my thoughts. I should stick to lurking I think.

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Oh man imagine having MR x as a boss. would be freakin nightmare for anyone. Dude just chill out

 

Thats probably true ;), I am an engineer and would hate to become the boss who has to deal with fools all the time

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Oh man imagine having MR x as a boss. would be freakin nightmare for anyone. Dude just chill out

Thats probably true ;), I am an engineer and would hate to become the boss who has to deal with fools all the time

Earn 2 points for flippin' it

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Is there an AS negative bias? True

Is there an Egwene negative bias? True

However I believe that both the AS and Egwene were written in by the author in such a way that a substantial portion of the fan base would naturally drift towards dislike of the two. So you will always have a pro Rand camp as well as a defender of the AS/Egwene camp in the fanbase

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Alright, here is the friendly warning to keep things civil etc...

 

 

On topic, I once bothered with the Egwene discussion years ago, but now I don't. For me, I like her fair enough as a character, she does good work for the Light, and it's more than can be said for many characters. Having said that, any annoyance/ dislike I may get while reading is simple: She would be extremely annoying if she was a real person. 

 

I don't see much need to prove hating on her. (Not that I hate her mind you) Just say she is annoying as all hell. 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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When I was reading the book, I didn't hate Egwene but I didn't like her either. But I must admit that reading all the things here has somewhat shifted my point of view that she is kind of dislikable. I think that there's definitely a bandwagon effect in disliking Egwene. 

 

Also, am I the only one who blames Gawyn over Siuan and Gareth's deaths? It was partly his fault that they got separated after all, if Gawyn didn't slip away there would be no need to find him  :(  

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Alright, here is the friendly warning to keep things civil etc...

 

 

On topic, I once bothered with the Egwene discussion years ago, but now I don't. For me, I like her fair enough as a character, she does good work for the Light, and it's more than can be said for many characters. Having said that, any annoyance/ dislike I may get while reading is simple: She would be extremely annoying if she was a real person. 

 

I don't see much need to prove hating on her. (Not that I hate her mind you) Just say she is annoying as all hell. 

Hmmm... I actually feel she'd be the least annoying real person. She's definitely the least whiny of the Two Rivers bunch, and she's the only person among that crew who actually wants to make something of herself. Who she is in the end is not because of what happened to her, its because of choices she made, and changes she accepted and dealt with. In many ways, she the most modern of RJ's characters, the one who'd fit easiest to today's world. She's about the only character (among the younger cast, at least) I can see myself actually having a discussion with and expecting an intelligent response from. The rest tend to be too parochial, too resentful of the existence of a wider world that invaded their flyspeck village.

 

As for a character I would find truly annoying, I'd have to say Mat. I feel the strong urge to smack him on the head even writing about him. He was immense fun to read when RJ wrote him, but god is he a total jackass.

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Alright, here is the friendly warning to keep things civil etc...

 

 

On topic, I once bothered with the Egwene discussion years ago, but now I don't. For me, I like her fair enough as a character, she does good work for the Light, and it's more than can be said for many characters. Having said that, any annoyance/ dislike I may get while reading is simple: She would be extremely annoying if she was a real person. 

 

I don't see much need to prove hating on her. (Not that I hate her mind you) Just say she is annoying as all hell. 

Hmmm... I actually feel she'd be the least annoying real person. She's definitely the least whiny of the Two Rivers bunch, and she's the only person among that crew who actually wants to make something of herself. Who she is in the end is not because of what happened to her, its because of choices she made, and changes she accepted and dealt with. In many ways, she the most modern of RJ's characters, the one who'd fit easiest to today's world. She's about the only character (among the younger cast, at least) I can see myself actually having a discussion with and expecting an intelligent response from. The rest tend to be too parochial, too resentful of the existence of a wider world that invaded their flyspeck village.

 

As for a character I would find truly annoying, I'd have to say Mat. I feel the strong urge to smack him on the head even writing about him. He was immense fun to read when RJ wrote him, but god is he a total jackass.

 

That's perfectly valid, it's your opinion. 

 

There is no way to argue that people find her insufferable and annoying however. She might be alright to talk to in a discussion, even as an inspiration, but as a friend, well, I would get tired of her quickly. 

 

Most ambitious and successful people aren't exactly the easiest people to get along with

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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CanUFeelTheLove?, on 24 Jan 2013 - 21:13, said:I have to admit, a lot of the books I was either neutral about Egwene or thought she was kind of a jerk. One thing Sanderson did in this last book is make me like her.... and then the bastard killed her! EVIL.

I really like her interaction with Tuon. It was one of the few times in all the books that I was behind her completely. And, I had problems in the earlier books with her not wanting Rand to break the seals. In this book at least she had a reason and a time. That made her complaint about his plan seem more than just her whining. I liked that she was the one to face Taim. It was not what I expected in the least yet made complete and utter sense. He was the Top Dreadlord.

 

Actually, Taim was not a dreadlord at all. He was 'Chosen'.

 

Yeah, I know. But, he was the one in charge of the Dreadlords. Pretty sure that is said in AMOL.

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I didn't take much issue with the Flame of Tar Valon as some people did. I thought it was well foreshadowed and expected her to come up with an anti-balefire weave as soon as Perrin first said to her "It's just a weave" back in ToM.

 

The only two things that 'upset me' where:

 

1) She somehow knew it wouldn't hurt those not turned far from the light. That wasn't necessary. BS and RJ should have just told us all of the other Aes Sedai fled when she used it.  Moreover, the Sharan's weren't darkfriends...we at least not the kind that have evil in their heart.

 

2) I wasn't a fan of the crystallization.  I suppose if you aren't burned from the pattern you are frozen in?  *shrug*

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You know what just hit me, and I don't hold it against her (Actually, with all the talk about character development, I think this has been overlooked), if I'm remembering right Egwene doesn't go as "WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?!?!?!" as she should have over the capture of Rand by the Elaida AS (when he was stuffed in a box). This could have potentially bonded the two of them as she was never shoved in a box but collared - much the same, in the end.

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You know what just hit me, and I don't hold it against her (Actually, with all the talk about character development, I think this has been overlooked), if I'm remembering right Egwene doesn't go as "WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?!?!?!" as she should have over the capture of Rand by the Elaida AS (when he was stuffed in a box). This could have potentially bonded the two of them as she was never shoved in a box but collared - much the same, in the end.

TGS

 

The words, repeated in her head, helped stave off the panic at considering yet another day within this cell. What would she have done without the nightly dreams to keep her sane? Again, she thought of poor Rand, locked away. She and he shared something now. A kinship beyond a common childhood in the Two Rivers. They had both suffered Elaida's punishments. And it hadn't broken either of them.

She thinks on it a number of other times as well.

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Next to Padan Fain, Egwene was the biggest disappointment to me in the end of the series. Which really hurt since she was a character I liked. Lets recap: she comes into her own as amryllin, which was freaking awesome. But then she almost dooms the world by alienating people from rand when it was time for the last battle. Honestly, her attitude toward Rand in general was dissatisfying. Seriously, i was asking myself if she even considered Rand an ally at times. She all but ignores Gawyn at a time when he needed guidance and purpose. He continues to go his own way and gets himself killed in the end. I know it's not all her fault, Gawyn was getting pretty erratic at the end, but still. And because of Gawyn's death she ends up going all jihad suicide bomber on us. She was able to take out Taim and a bunch of enemy channelers. Ok, good. Albeit with a new super powerful weave she thinks up on the fly, in the middle of a battle, which turns out to be the opposite of balefire.....Hmmm....you know what? I'll even let that little bit slide. But on the whole it just kinda sucked how she and Gawyn ended.

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Regarding the issue of foreshadowing related to Egwene's death, it actually did occur. If you will reacll, just before the meeting with rand and the other rulers, she was asleep at the wT. While sleeping she was "dreaning" and one of the dreams was of a crystaline pillar, standing by itself. That was the pillar Leane found after Egwene took out Taim and the Sharan channelers. As for her dying, that I hated. What exactly was the point? This isn't some version of the squalid Game Of Thrones where everyone dies, this is WOT where people die for a purpose and I don't think that Egwene's was that needful. Think of all the things she had set in motion which will bot now come to fruitition: All women who can channel being brought to the tower, the deals with the Aiel and the Sea Folk, the Kinswomen? Will any of these still go forward (Well, the overage novice's will since it is already in play, but the others?)?

 

Jack

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TGS

Quote

The

words, repeated in her head, helped stave off the panic at considering

yet another day within this cell. What would she have done without the

nightly dreams to keep her sane? Again, she thought of poor Rand, locked

away. She and he shared something now. A kinship beyond a common

childhood in the Two Rivers. They had both suffered Elaida's

punishments. And it hadn't broken either of them.

She thinks on it a number of other times as well.

She thinks about it, but never acts on these thoughts in any of her interactions with Rand.  In fact, it is really from the middle part of the series that her relationship with Rand changes from one of friendship to one of wariness, distance, and opposition.

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She thinks about it, but never acts on these thoughts in any of her interactions with Rand.  In fact, it is really from the middle part of the series that her relationship with Rand changes from one of friendship to one of wariness, distance, and opposition.

TGS

Quote

The

words, repeated in her head, helped stave off the panic at considering

yet another day within this cell. What would she have done without the

nightly dreams to keep her sane? Again, she thought of poor Rand, locked

away. She and he shared something now. A kinship beyond a common

childhood in the Two Rivers. They had both suffered Elaida's

punishments. And it hadn't broken either of them.

She thinks on it a number of other times as well.

 

Exactly correct. Her enslavement by the Seanchan is probably the most defining event in her life in the book and this share comraderie with Rand that she mentions 2-3 times amounts to nothing. Not even an "I'm sorry."

Edited by CanUFeelTheLove?
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Am I the only one who found the whole anti-Balefire thing to be a bit of an ass-pull?

Not likely, however I will argue in its defense.

 

Consider "Belief and order give strength." The italicized portion, order gives strength, is one way of describing the strength of crystal structures. Even if it was BS's addition, I feel as if it fits merely to continue the theme of balance. A weave to fray the Pattern (increasing entropy/chaos) and a weave to restore it (decreasing entropy/chaos).

I can buy her weave putting the crystal scabs on the fissures being caused by all the balefire.

I can buy that beam hitting Taim's balefire and cancelling each other out.

But the bit about how the beam would kill only those who had turned to the shadow? Sorry, bit too much of a stretch.

 

Also, it has been mentioned several times that all angreal and sa'angreal have buffers that prevent overdrawing, with Callandor being the notable exception. The part where Egwyne dies has a throwaway line to say that the sa'angreal she's using also lacks that buffer. You'd think this would have come into play or at least been mentioned in all the times in this book and the last one it was being used. Again, bit of an ass-pull.

It doesn't say that Egwene's anti-balefire would only kill those who had been turned to the shadow. It mentions that it wouldn't have the same crystallization effect if used on somebody who had not been converted to the shadow at pg. 795.

 

"A multihued, beautiful crystal grew from him. Uncut and rough, as if from the core of the earth itself. Somehow Egwene knew that the Flame would have had much less effect on a person who had not given himself to the shadow."

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It was probably not him being evil, but his excessive use of balefire that caused it.  Or at least that was the justification that I thought made the most sense, given that it was supposed to be the opposite of balefire.  It could also have been having ability to channel the TP caused some unknown reaction with the weave.

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A lot of people are complaining about Gawyn in this thread.  I concur with some of this, but think you've all missed something important.

 

Gawyn used the Seanchan assassin rings (I forget the formal name) to help Egwene escape the arrival of Demandred and the Sharan army.  Meaning he was poisoned at that point -- he wasn't going to survive more than a few weeks anyway.  (Whether or not the poison was curable via channeled healing was unclear -- Seanchan damane did not use healing weaves until partway through AMOL.)

 

As I recall, Gawyn was starting to feel the effects of the poison during the battle at the Fields of Merrilor.  He might have known he was on the way out and figured he'd take out Demandred while he could.

 

Just as important -- Gawyn had always wanted to achieve glory.  Hence his earlier hatred of Rand -- he was jealous that Rand had been crowned king and was toppling nations. He came to peace with living in Egwene's shadow in Towers of Midnight, but perhaps not enough.

 

I agree with critics though, Gawyn needed warder lessons from Lan.  When he went off to be killed by Demandred, his challenge would have been received by readers better if he did so under the motivations of either seeking glory or dying of poison.

 

(BTW, anyone else agree that Gawyn seemed to fare better against Demandred than Galad?  Had Gawyn also given his rings to Galad, the ring-medallion combo might have been enough for Galad to take him.  As it stood though, I didn't find Galad's challenge to be particularly well done.)

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(BTW, anyone else agree that Gawyn seemed to fare better against Demandred than Galad?  Had Gawyn also given his rings to Galad, the ring-medallion combo might have been enough for Galad to take him.  As it stood though, I didn't find Galad's challenge to be particularly well done.)

 

as a magical weapon , i am not sure that the ring can work together with the medallion ... but obviously , it would have been better to have 3 assassins with 1 ring instead of all the rings on the same guy ...

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I liked the her in this book if simply because I predicted an Eldrene-style ending for Egwene.

Some character just HAD to die that way.

 

Could somebody explain to me how she knew the light would be the signal to break the seals?

From one of the prophecies, though not directly. An Aes Sedai who had been studying them had written a note in the margin. I think it went along the lines of "Wait for the light".

I took this to mean that they had to wait until just after the eclipse that was foretold. Obviously I was wrong though.

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Though I didn't like Egwene's character at times throughout the series, I did develop serious respect for her in the final 3 books. I knew she was going to go out in a blaze of glory because I always felt like she was the Queen of Manetheren reborn (mostly due to her being born in the area, strong channeler, the old tongue seemingly familiar, even yells some of it in tEotW, etc). Looking back at how the series described her ending - grief of the dire circumstances, the King falling and anger at the bad guys - she calls down massive amounts of power and leaves everything in a smoldering ruin. Egwene, feeling similarly, throws even more of the power around at times - using flaming retribution - and leaves the area around her without enemies because they're all frozen in crystal. 

I'm certainly not saying "ooo i has the evidence that she IS for certain without a doubt the queen of manetheren reborn!" but it has always been a thought of mine. 

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Egwene had a glorious death. A really glorious death.

 

Sometimes she irritated me by acting motherly to THE BOYS, but when she confronted Elaida she earned my respect and she held it till her last breathe.

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It was probably not him being evil, but his excessive use of balefire that caused it.  Or at least that was the justification that I thought made the most sense, given that it was supposed to be the opposite of balefire.  It could also have been having ability to channel the TP caused some unknown reaction with the weave.

 

The Sharan channelers never used TP, so this explanation does not hold good. It was a stupid and weird part of the book.I wonder how Sanderson could not think of something better here.

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