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Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

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Yes laughable that people think Egwene is the equal of Rand in anyway. She was and will always be an inferior to him.

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Egwene is not a special soul,her power was only due to her position.If she was not apppointed into the Amyrlin position she would be a nothing.Rand is a special soul.They are not equal.Some people need ot be reminded of this again and again.

:laugh:

:laugh:

 

Yes laughable that people think Egwene is the equal of Rand in anyway. She was and will always be an inferior to him.

:rolleyes:

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(POV ruminations don't count)

 

 

why ???

 

POV's ruminations don't count in the real world ( as noone can really know what's in another's brain ) but it's a book man , POVs ruminations are a way for the author to make us understand the character ... you will never understand truly a character ( Egwene or another one ) if you read only half what the authors writes about it ...

POV

 

Point-of-View (POV) narration is an effective way to tell a story, but it should be said over and over that POV is a CHARACTER'S perception of the world. It is THEIR opinions about a situation, and THEIR inner dialogue. Therefore, it is laden with THEIR bias, THEIR worldview, and constrained by THEIR limited information...

 

This is why the issue of Egwene al'Vere becomes so heated: one side takes her POV's at face value, adopts her struggles as their own, and then feels offended if anyone points out the obvious, awful and hypocritical things she actually does. The first six books establish her nature; the next eight let her run free. Without a doubt, she feels that she's "uniting the Tower for the Last Battle".... In another POV, an intimate view into her feelings for Gawyn, she identifies with the Green Ajah because she secretly wants to marry her Warder. Thus we are left with the impressions of her noble clarity and Aes Sedai purpose vis a vis the Last Battle, and the affection and love she feels for Gawyn, all because of her POV. Of course, no other ruler in Randland demands an oath of absolute obedience from their husband; no other Aes Sedai requires utter fealty from their Warder. But Egwene requires these submissions from Gawyn. Does she "love" Gawyn? Well, her POV says she does, so I guess the extreme requirements she makes on him are okay. Not aberrant in the least... *snicker-snicker*

 

Her reflexive behaviors and dismissive attitudes to the Dragon Reborn himself, the very "cat and meow" of the Last Battle, cause a careful reader to say: "Huh? Why is she acting like that? Didn't her POV proclaim her noble, selfless intention to unite the Tower and fight in the Last Battle? Yeah, I can see that she's got issues with breaking the Seals and all, but why is she dealing with him from a position of mistrust and opposition? I guess as a careful reader, I have more information than Egwene, so I guess I can understand why she has doubts.... But hey!! Wait a minute!! She ALWAYS TRATS RAND LIKE CRAP ! And come to think of it, she has a pattern of treating lots of people poorly, even though when I read her POV, she doesn't think she's behaving badly, so, maybe, she's as awesome as everyone says...."

 

POV descriptions have inherent bias, and without looking at a character in total and seeing how they move through the world, it is soooooo easy to accept their POV at face value. This is why reliance on quoting the book instead of clear synthesis is lazy. NEVER accept the bias of a character as proof.

 

**this is submitted somewhat tongue- in-cheek. To be clear, I am not denying the salient details of the story: yes, Egwene united the Tower and did amazing things. Yes, her Crystal Pillar of Death in the Last Battle killed lots of bad people and aided the Light....

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Egwene is not a special soul,her power was only due to her position.If she was not apppointed into the Amyrlin position she would be a nothing.Rand is a special soul.They are not equal.Some people need ot be reminded of this again and again.

:laugh:

:laugh:

 

>Yes laughable that people think Egwene is the equal of Rand in anyway. She was and will always be an inferior to him.

:rolleyes:

 

I think it is more comical that people have Rand and Egwene in a competition ;)

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(POV ruminations don't count)

 

 

why ???

 

POV's ruminations don't count in the real world ( as noone can really know what's in another's brain ) but it's a book man , POVs ruminations are a way for the author to make us understand the character ... you will never understand truly a character ( Egwene or another one ) if you read only half what the authors writes about it ...

POV

 

Point-of-View (POV) narration is an effective way to tell a story, but it should be said over and over that POV is a CHARACTER'S perception of the world. It is THEIR opinions about a situation, and THEIR inner dialogue. Therefore, it is laden with THEIR bias, THEIR worldview, and constrained by THEIR limited information...

Very true. But you can't flat out ignore plain statements. If a character thinks in their head, "I am doing this for this reason", you can't say that they're actually doing this for a totally different reason that's a secret conspiracy so well planned that even their own conscious brain isn't aware of it.

 

 

This is why the issue of Egwene al'Vere becomes so heated: one side takes her POV's at face value, adopts her struggles as their own, and then feels offended if anyone points out the obvious, awful and hypocritical things she actually does. The first six books establish her nature; the next eight let her run free. Without a doubt, she feels that she's "uniting the Tower for the Last Battle".... In another POV, an intimate view into her feelings for Gawyn, she identifies with the Green Ajah because she secretly wants to marry her Warder.

Except she picked the Green long before she wanted to marry him, and when told that to be Green is to love men, refused that surface reading of the Ajah and asked for its deepest ethos, and identified with it... Its Elayne who decided on the Green primarily because she wanted two Warders.

Thus we are left with the impressions of her noble clarity and Aes Sedai purpose vis a vis the Last Battle, and the affection and love she feels for Gawyn, all because of her POV. Of course, no other ruler in Randland demands an oath of absolute obedience from their husband;

Have you heard of the Queen of Andor?

no other Aes Sedai requires utter fealty from their Warder.

Except Elayne rues the fact she didn't ask Brigette to swear such oaths as other AS make their Warders do. Like Lan did to Moiraine, and unlike Egwene who never asked Gawyn to formally sweat fealty to her... Yes, I'm seeing what "no bias" means, here.

But Egwene requires these submissions from Gawyn. Does she "love" Gawyn? Well, her POV says she does, so I guess the extreme requirements she makes on him are okay. Not aberrant in the least... *snicker-snicker*

Lets ask Gawyn, eh, who can feel what she feels for him through the bond?

 

 

Her reflexive behaviors and dismissive attitudes to the Dragon Reborn himself, the very "cat and meow" of the Last Battle, cause a careful reader to say: "Huh? Why is she acting like that? Didn't her POV proclaim her noble, selfless intention to unite the Tower and fight in the Last Battle? Yeah, I can see that she's got issues with breaking the Seals and all, but why is she dealing with him from a position of mistrust and opposition?

 

Because Rand gave people plenty of reasons to mistrust him. Not least his, "I'm going to break the Seals, tata!" shenanigan. That may have been a good political move, but lets not pretend it was designed to engender trust. Imagine for a minute if Rand had handled this differently. Say he asked her for a private meeting, and there told her he had been driven to near madness, and now he was out of it. When Egwene said she wanted to make sure by having an AS delve him, he said yes, and let them sense the patina of light around his brain. Then gave some proof of his memories of LTT, and after having convinced Egwene of these things, he told her that he was convinced he needed to break the Seals, based on his own knowledge and what Herid Fel told him. Do you think things would have gone down the same way?

 

 

I guess as a careful reader, I have more information than Egwene, so I guess I can understand why she has doubts.... But hey!! Wait a minute!! She ALWAYS TRATS RAND LIKE CRAP !

Yeah, no. She doesn't.

 

And come to think of it, she has a pattern of treating lots of people poorly, even though when I read her POV, she doesn't think she's behaving badly, so, maybe, she's as awesome as everyone says...."

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person? I can name one... Mat, over the Tear incident. For which she more than made up by revealing the Finn Doorway to him. Rand is certainly suspicious of her being close to the Wise Ones, but as we see from what she does with them, working against him is far from her plan.

 

 

POV descriptions have inherent bias, and without looking at a character in total and seeing how they move through the world, it is soooooo easy to accept their POV at face value. This is why reliance on quoting the book instead of clear synthesis is lazy. NEVER accept the bias of a character as proof.

But never ignore their PoV either. You can't remove the context of their thoughts, and then claim your evidence is without bias.

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While I agree with most of your points, I would say that there are a few more examples of this:

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person?

 

I know its been debated on here a lot, but a lot of people think she treats Nyneave pretty badly in that scene in TAR where she has Nyn chased by thugs.  Additionally, I would argue that she treats Gawyn, some of the Aes Sedai, and Rand with a complete lack of respect, which I would say fits under the envelope of treating them badly.  True, Rand doesn't treat her with much respect either, but that just means they both treat each other badly, not that they cancel out each other's bad behaviour.

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(POV ruminations don't count)

why ???

 

POV's ruminations don't count in the real world ( as noone can really know what's in another's brain ) but it's a book man , POVs ruminations are a way for the author to make us understand the character ... you will never understand truly a character ( Egwene or another one ) if you read only half what the authors writes about it ...

POV

 

Point-of-View (POV) narration is an effective way to tell a story, but it should be said over and over that POV is a CHARACTER'S perception of the world. It is THEIR opinions about a situation, and THEIR inner dialogue. Therefore, it is laden with THEIR bias, THEIR worldview, and constrained by THEIR limited information...

Very true. But you can't flat out ignore plain statements. If a character thinks in their head, "I am doing this for this reason", you can't say that they're actually doing this for a totally different reason that's a secret conspiracy so well planned that even their own conscious brain isn't aware of it.

This is why the issue of Egwene al'Vere becomes so heated: one side takes her POV's at face value, adopts her struggles as their own, and then feels offended if anyone points out the obvious, awful and hypocritical things she actually does. The first six books establish her nature; the next eight let her run free. Without a doubt, she feels that she's "uniting the Tower for the Last Battle".... In another POV, an intimate view into her feelings for Gawyn, she identifies with the Green Ajah because she secretly wants to marry her Warder.

Except she picked the Green long before she wanted to marry him, and when told that to be Green is to love men, refused that surface reading of the Ajah and asked for its deepest ethos, and identified with it... Its Elayne who decided on the Green primarily because she wanted two Warders.

Thus we are left with the impressions of her noble clarity and Aes Sedai purpose vis a vis the Last Battle, and the affection and love she feels for Gawyn, all because of her POV. Of course, no other ruler in Randland demands an oath of absolute obedience from their husband;

Have you heard of the Queen of Andor?

no other Aes Sedai requires utter fealty from their Warder.

Except Elayne rues the fact she didn't ask Brigette to swear such oaths as other AS make their Warders do. Like Lan did to Moiraine, and unlike Egwene who never asked Gawyn to formally sweat fealty to her... Yes, I'm seeing what "no bias" means, here.

But Egwene requires these submissions from Gawyn. Does she "love" Gawyn? Well, her POV says she does, so I guess the extreme requirements she makes on him are okay. Not aberrant in the least... *snicker-snicker*

Lets ask Gawyn, eh, who can feel what she feels for him through the bond?

Her reflexive behaviors and dismissive attitudes to the Dragon Reborn himself, the very "cat and meow" of the Last Battle, cause a careful reader to say: "Huh? Why is she acting like that? Didn't her POV proclaim her noble, selfless intention to unite the Tower and fight in the Last Battle? Yeah, I can see that she's got issues with breaking the Seals and all, but why is she dealing with him from a position of mistrust and opposition?

Because Rand gave people plenty of reasons to mistrust him. Not least his, "I'm going to break the Seals, tata!" shenanigan. That may have been a good political move, but lets not pretend it was designed to engender trust. Imagine for a minute if Rand had handled this differently. Say he asked her for a private meeting, and there told her he had been driven to near madness, and now he was out of it. When Egwene said she wanted to make sure by having an AS delve him, he said yes, and let them sense the patina of light around his brain. Then gave some proof of his memories of LTT, and after having convinced Egwene of these things, he told her that he was convinced he needed to break the Seals, based on his own knowledge and what Herid Fel told him. Do you think things would have gone down the same way?

I guess as a careful reader, I have more information than Egwene, so I guess I can understand why she has doubts.... But hey!! Wait a minute!! She ALWAYS TRATS RAND LIKE CRAP !

Yeah, no. She doesn't.

And come to think of it, she has a pattern of treating lots of people poorly, even though when I read her POV, she doesn't think she's behaving badly, so, maybe, she's as awesome as everyone says...."

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person? I can name one... Mat, over the Tear incident. For which she more than made up by revealing the Finn Doorway to him. Rand is certainly suspicious of her being close to the Wise Ones, but as we see from what she does with them, working against him is far from her plan.

POV descriptions have inherent bias, and without looking at a character in total and seeing how they move through the world, it is soooooo easy to accept their POV at face value. This is why reliance on quoting the book instead of clear synthesis is lazy. NEVER accept the bias of a character as proof.

But never ignore their PoV either. You can't remove the context of their thoughts, and then claim your evidence is without bias.
I'm on an iPhone and formatting a reply is supremely difficult. Also, I am not as articulate as I would like to be, nor as thoroughly conversant in the ultra-fine details of WOT,'so please have patience....

 

I agree with all you say re: POV. My intent was merely to point out the inherent bias' and the ease of adopting those views. It's the proverbial POV trap, right? [side note: The other day a colleague recommended I check out readandfindout[dot]com. Lo and behold!! It felt like the heavens cracked open and all of my suspicions about Egwene al'Vere were finally explained!!! Seriously, that Cannoli guy is sharp and accurate... Is there anything like that on Dragonmount? I get the distinct impression that criticism of Egwene isn't welcome here.....]

 

I honestly didn't know that the Queen of Andor required an oath of obedience from her husband. And I always thought that the Warder bond was less about swearing obedience and more about service. Ah, well: I don't have another re-read in me, so I'll just have to accept my WOT deficiencies. Still, it was difficult to comprehend the nuances of the Egwene/Gawyn love affair in ToM, so I just accepted that they "loved" each other, because that's what we were told. Maybe I'm tired but I thought she required him to swear obedience as part of the package? it stood out as strange, because I couldn't (and can't, really) recall any examples of that between husband and wife, nor among the AS/Warder.New Spring is pretty hazy for me, but if Lan swore to Morraine, I guess that sets precedence. Agh: too nuanced for me: I'm just a simple man and it seems plain strange to require obedience from your lover/partner/mate, regardless of Andoran law or arcane Aes Sedai practices. Unless you're into that kinky stuff or feel compelled to bend people to your will.....

 

I have often imagined how differently things could have been throughout WOT if characters simply acted like normal 21st century people and, you know, actually sat down and conversated. Indeed, the major plot developments could have been thoroughly taken care of by volume 8 and the world thoroughly united towards the LB by number 9..... Alas, WOT rarely follows the most obvious solution....

 

Re: showing you a POV concerning an Egwene victim: Your use of the word "spite" is interesting, because Egwene never seemed "spiteful" to me; calculating and ruthless, sure, but not spiteful. Actually, besides her rabid hatred of the Seanchan, she doesn't carry around "spite" for anyone. Indeed, all of the post-LoC POVs concerning Egwene, the speaker seems to display a grudging respect for her political acumen and steadfast character.....

 

Neverthess, my mind went right to the various Salidar AS et al who wound up swearing fealty to Egwene (which, of course, is against Tower law and a major point of outrage when Elaida did it, but, whatever...)..... Not really sure if we saw any POV from them, because, you know, 3rd, 4th or 5th tier characters are rarely given POVs, especially ones distant from circles of influence. We can only wonder if the general opinion of Egwene decreases in proportion to the distance from the core of her power and the main story thread. :)

 

The issue of her telling Mat about the doorway could be quickly explained by invoking "It Was The Will Of The Pattern!" I went back and re-read that part in tSR. It's from her POV so we see her emotions careen from exasperation, to honest concern, to thick prejudice to pity. She certainly has a low opinion of Mat, through. i lean towards the "RJordan needed to get Mat through the doorway in order for his story arc to move forward and there was nobody else to give him that specific information except Egwene" opinion, because it is unclear from the book why she actually told him.

 

I don't remember Mat's POV complaining about Egwene's treatment, but I do remember he was displeased that neither Elayne, Egwene nor Nyanaeve expressed a shred of gratitude for his help in the Stone of Tear incident. Even Aviendha agreed it was a legitimate beef. Ji'e'toh has to come from within, however, and if Egwene doesn't feel the toh, ya can't force it.... Don't really think it works on a credit system either, but if her telling him about the doorway "more than makes up" for an egregious lack of of grace and humility, I'll let you go your own way with it.

 

Edit: spelling/clarity

Edited by BlueSun

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While I agree with most of your points, I would say that there are a few more examples of this:

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person?

 

I know its been debated on here a lot, but a lot of people think she treats Nyneave pretty badly in that scene in TAR where she has Nyn chased by thugs.  Additionally, I would argue that she treats Gawyn, some of the Aes Sedai, and Rand with a complete lack of respect, which I would say fits under the envelope of treating them badly.  True, Rand doesn't treat her with much respect either, but that just means they both treat each other badly, not that they cancel out each other's bad behaviour.

 

Rand does not need to defer to anyone .He is the Dragon.Egwene forgets her place many times in the book.

 

As he said in AMOL,Egwene just has the title of the watcher of seals.she does not have them.She lost them too bad.He need not even have let her know before breaking the seals,she would be none the wiser.I really wished to see how Egwene would have stopped Rand from breaking the seals as she treatens if  Moraine had not showed up.

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While I agree with most of your points, I would say that there are a few more examples of this:

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person?

 

I know its been debated on here a lot, but a lot of people think she treats Nyneave pretty badly in that scene in TAR where she has Nyn chased by thugs.  Additionally, I would argue that she treats Gawyn, some of the Aes Sedai, and Rand with a complete lack of respect, which I would say fits under the envelope of treating them badly.  True, Rand doesn't treat her with much respect either, but that just means they both treat each other badly, not that they cancel out each other's bad behaviour.

 

Rand does not need to defer to anyone .He is the Dragon.Egwene forgets her place many times in the book.

 

As he said in AMOL,Egwene just has the title of the watcher of seals.she does not have them.She lost them too bad.He need not even have let her know before breaking the seals,she would be none the wiser.I really wished to see how Egwene would have stopped Rand from breaking the seals as she treatens if  Moraine had not showed up.

She did not lose the seals.  Rand lost them.  And seriously?  He need not have let her or anyone know?  Just because he is the prophesized saviour doesn't mean he's going to save the world by doing shit, which includes doing the right thing at the wrong time.  And she was right in trying to prevent him from doing it at the time.

 

And Rand is not defering to her in giving her position or title a measure of respect.  You don't earn the respect of a subordinate by treating them like shit anyway.

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While I agree with most of your points, I would say that there are a few more examples of this:

 

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person?

I know its been debated on here a lot, but a lot of people think she treats Nyneave pretty badly in that scene in TAR where she has Nyn chased by thugs. Additionally, I would argue that she treats Gawyn, some of the Aes Sedai, and Rand with a complete lack of respect, which I would say fits under the envelope of treating them badly. True, Rand doesn't treat her with much respect either, but that just means they both treat each other badly, not that they cancel out each other's bad behaviour.

Rand does not need to defer to anyone .He is the Dragon.Egwene forgets her place many times in the book.

 

As he said in AMOL,Egwene just has the title of the watcher of seals.she does not have them.She lost them too bad.He need not even have let her know before breaking the seals,she would be none the wiser.I really wished to see how Egwene would have stopped Rand from breaking the seals as she treatens if Moraine had not showed up.

She did not lose the seals. Rand lost them. And seriously? He need not have let her or anyone know? Just because he is the prophesized saviour doesn't mean he's going to save the world by doing shit, which includes doing the right thing at the wrong time. And she was right in trying to prevent him from doing it at the time.

 

And Rand is not defering to her in giving her position or title a measure of respect. You don't earn the respect of a subordinate by treating them like shit anyway.

Post tGS Rand makes a point of deferring to others, as a way to "spread the love" and repair his insane tyrannical behavior. And, yeah: Rand lost the Seals here, but the White Tower lost track of them thousand(s??) of years ago.

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While I agree with most of your points, I would say that there are a few more examples of this:

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person?

 

I know its been debated on here a lot, but a lot of people think she treats Nyneave pretty badly in that scene in TAR where she has Nyn chased by thugs.  Additionally, I would argue that she treats Gawyn, some of the Aes Sedai, and Rand with a complete lack of respect, which I would say fits under the envelope of treating them badly.  True, Rand doesn't treat her with much respect either, but that just means they both treat each other badly, not that they cancel out each other's bad behaviour.

 

Rand does not need to defer to anyone .He is the Dragon.Egwene forgets her place many times in the book.

 

As he said in AMOL,Egwene just has the title of the watcher of seals.she does not have them.She lost them too bad.He need not even have let her know before breaking the seals,she would be none the wiser.I really wished to see how Egwene would have stopped Rand from breaking the seals as she treatens if  Moraine had not showed up.

She did not lose the seals.  Rand lost them.  And seriously?  He need not have let her or anyone know?  Just because he is the prophesized saviour doesn't mean he's going to save the world by doing shit, which includes doing the right thing at the wrong time.  And she was right in trying to prevent him from doing it at the time.

 

And Rand is not defering to her in giving her position or title a measure of respect.  You don't earn the respect of a subordinate by treating them like shit anyway.

 

If the subordinate remembers their place then they need to be treated with respect. 

 

Egwene never had the seals to lose them in the first place.All she had was an empty title "watcher of seals".

 

And wht exactly would have happened if Rand had broken the seals then. The shadow had the seals(if they stole it from Rand) and they never broke it.What does that say?

Edited by XXX47

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I thought the "Oh No!! The Shadow stole the Seals!!!" was a cheesy, unnecessary diversion.

 

Sanderson just wanted something else for Androl to do.The more I think abt it the more I do not even like the introduction of Androl.As if the no of characters in WoT was not enough that Sanderson had to create a new one in the last 3 books. But we digress..

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He need not even have let her know before breaking the seals,she would be none the wiser.

Did the whole finding out the the seals had to be broken at a specific moment in that old book and Egwene giving the order to Logain to break them just go totally over your head? Brandon has already said Moraine had to show up so that Rand and Egwene worked together on that or all would have been lost. Rand had to be convinced to wait and Egwene had to be totally convinced to break them.

 

I get the distinct impression that criticism of Egwene isn't welcome here.....

 

Ha. Go to the general forum and search her name. You will find thread after thread dedicated to that pass time. The problem as I stated early on in this thread as it quickly turns into unrealistic bashing that takes away from rational discourse on the topic. You know statements like.

 

I state unequivocally that Egwene does NOTHING for the greater good.

Another problem is you keep referring to your "careful reading" that has somehow granted you true insight to her character. But then later after getting details wrong(which goes back to your first posts on the topic)you admit that "I'll just have to accept my WoT deficiencies". Many of us actually really enjoy discussing this topic. The extremist views on both sides unfortunately send it off the rails all too often.

Edited by Suttree

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Egwene never gave an order to Logain.Did you make that up?

 

Rand never had the seals at FoM if they were stolen before.What exactly would have happened if he broke the fake seals? I am not even sure what would have happened if he broke the real seals as the shadown had the seals and did not break them at that point.

Edited by XXX47

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Egwene never gave an order to Logain.Did you make that up?

:rolleyes:

 

AMoL

 

The Amyrlin sends you her last words," the Seanchan woman called. "You must deliver the seals up to the White Tower to be broken. The sign is the coming of the light! She says it will be known when it arrives.

 

 

So it was that Rand used the Dark One's own essence, channeled in it's full strength. He held the Dark One tightly, like a dove in the grip of a hawk.

And light exploded from him...

 

 

"It's happening," Gabrelle said, stepping up to him.

Logain reached to his belt, then took the three items from his pouch. Disc, half white, half black. The nearby Asha'man turned toward him, pausing in Healing and comforting people.

"Do it," Gabrelle said. "Do it , Sealbreaker."

Logain snapped the once unbreakable seals, one by one, and dropped the pieces to the ground.

 

The author and the book told us it needed to happen that way, that Rand and Egwene had to work together on it. That was a portion of Moiraine's prophesied part.

Edited by Suttree

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So that reads like Egwene giving an "order" to Logain. Wow."Order" . lol

 

Author does not explain what would have happened if Rand broke the fake seals at FoM before Moraine came or would have happened if he broke the real seals.The shadow had the seals which they did not break, It makes no sense period.

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So that reads like Egwene giving an "order" to Logain. Wow."Order" . lol

 

Author does not explain what would have happened if Rand broke the fake seals at FoM before Moraine came or would have happened if he broke the real seals.The shadow had the seals which they did not break, It makes no sense period.

  :blink:   Are you seriously trying to split hairs over semantics of Egwene not actually "personally giving" the order. It was her order, she had it passed along to Logain as her "last words". That is the only way Logain new they had to be broken at the coming of the light and he followed her instruction to do so. It's really not difficult at all.

 

As for the rest, yes the book tells us it had to happen that way but more importantly Brandon has done so in interview as well. It is really odd you are even trying to argue this point and I have no idea why you keep repeating the fallacy that since the shadow didn't break them it means they didn't actually have to be broken at the right time. Seriously just give over dude, this one is cut and dry on a number of levels.

Edited by Suttree

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An "order" is given by a superior.Egwene cannot give orders to Logain.Rand can,Egwene cannot.

 

Sanderson said that Moriane needed to be present to make sure Rand and Egwene fight together.It had nothing to do with the seals as the seals were fake in the first place!! What would have happened if the seals were broken at FoM other than Egwene throwing a hissy fit?

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An "order" is given by a superior.Egwene cannot give orders to Logain.Rand can,Egwene cannot.

 

Sanderson said that Moriane needed to be present to make sure Rand and Egwene fight together.It had nothing to do with the seals as the seals were fake in the first place!! What would have happened if the seals were broken at FoM other than Egwene throwing a hissy fit?

So the whole stop splitting hairs went over your head as well?

 

As for the rest no one has any idea when the seals were stolen.

 

Your point above was:

 

He need not even have let her know before breaking the seals,she would be none the wiser.

As for Brandon yes it partially had to do with the seals and when exactly they were stolen is rather beside the point. As has been stated in this thread and numerous other places here and at TL Rand needed to be convinced to wait and Egwene had to be convinced they needed to be broken. The knowledge of when came from those old books, the direction of when to do it was made by Egwene in her last words and Logain wouldn't have known otherwise. Your statement above is false.

Edited by Suttree

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Maybe it is just me, but this discussion seems to be becoming (imho anyway) to whether Rand or Egwene has a larger phallus.

 

A: Rand has a size 20 phallus! Egwene must have no more than size 12 phallus because I say so!

 

B: No Egwene must have at least a size 15 phallus because in [wherever] she said so!

 

A: Just because she thinks she has a size 15 phallus doesn't mean she has a size 15 phallus. 12 I say! And don't forget, the pattern makes Rand's phallus the most special in the world. 

 

C: Ah the hatred towards egwene is also probably because she used that size 12 Phallus and slapped Nynaeve across the face in TAR several times!

 

----

Anyway, my lame attempt of parody aside, I enjoyed the interaction of Rand and Egwene. Maybe I'm the only one who have experienced this growing up with Childhood friends - Just because we become adults, it does not mean we do not slip into our childhood roles with each other (simply because it is many years of learnt behaviour towards each other). It is probably exaggerated more for story purposes, but from when they left Two Rivers, it was about 2 years. 

 

And maybe because of that, I can laugh at myself (and my friends) when something important happens (despite our best to act more adult-like), we end up falling back into childhood roles.

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Why do you deny Egwene authority or status ? As much as Rand his the Savior , he is neither the only hero nor omniscient . Egwene treat him as is equal and he doe's the same they respect and value each other and Rand needed her as much as she needed him , in the end it is her who freed him from himself and in a way win the last battle .

You have an argument when you speak about her tendency to demand allegiance from her subaltern , this is in a way above and beyond her  station of Amyrlin , but in a time where the tower is split the last battle at your doorstep , with a madwoman in control of the tower , Black Ajah and forsaken roaming around , I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to have a strong base of support .

I don't think the issue is critics about Egwene , as much as it is with critics that make no sense.

Edited by nolirion

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@James

 

There is a long history here of Egwene hate James. It has nothing to do with one being better than the other and everything to do with what actually happened in the story. Some people let AS bias skew everything they do. She isn't one of my top 5 characters but you can only see so many ridiculous statements before you start pointing out the flaws.

 

As for characters comparing phallus size see the lame conversation between Mat and Rand in AMoL.

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He need not even have let her know before breaking the seals,she would be none the wiser.

Did the whole finding out the the seals had to be broken at a specific moment in that old book and Egwene giving the order to Logain to break them just go totally over your head? Brandon has already said Moraine had to show up so that Rand and Egwene worked together on that or all would have been lost. Rand had to be convinced to wait and Egwene had to be totally convinced to break them.

 

I get the distinct impression that criticism of Egwene isn't welcome here.....

 

Ha. Go to the general forum and search her name. You will find thread after thread dedicated to that pass time. The problem as I stated early on in this thread as it quickly turns into unrealistic bashing that takes away from rational discourse on the topic. You know statements like.

 

I state unequivocally that Egwene does NOTHING for the greater good.

Another problem is you keep referring to your "careful reading" that has somehow granted you true insight to her character. But then later after getting details wrong(which goes back to your first posts on the topic)you admit that "I'll just have to accept my WoT deficiencies". Many of us actually really enjoy discussing this topic. The extremist views on both sides unfortunately send it off the rails all too often.
I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge.....

 

EDIT: I had a really nice response but I got browser diverted and now it is gone..... Sad.... No time to reconstruct; sorry, but there was no bombast or displays of WOT deficiencies, just so you know..... The last line was "How readers cannot see these traits in her, is utterly bizarre...." It really was a good post.....

Edited by BlueSun

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