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Perrin's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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Feeling really stupid now...

 

All the way back in tDR Min warns Perrin to beware of the most beautiful women he'll ever see. It's never really made sense based on what happened at the time and in that book, yes they met but she didn't seem to 'care' that much or show that much interest... When she came back as Cyndane it had to be in TAR where she could be Lanfear again that it happened. It also had to be in TAR as it was the only place Perrin had the strength to match her.

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Perrin couldn't eat any of the food he conjured in the Dream World so how does conjured Forkroot work?  I didn't question it until he stuffed Graendal's mouth full of the stuff. Had to put the book for a bit but couldn't think of any reason why it would work.

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was very disjointed having him out of the action for a good chunk of the book.

 

I'm glad he got Slayer...that was nice justice for Hopper.

 

The Lanfear bit....I gotta say I didn't get his interaction with her...didn't seem like a matchup/fight pairing that made sense.

 

 

Perrin really hit his stride in ToM.  I agree that BS did a hell of a job with that character.  Was hoping for the same sort of excellence in AMoL.  Was disappointed

 

 

(PS.  The 'not killing a woman' bit....seriously?  Pretty sure that needed to be left out at this point....last battle, forsaken, evil...it's time to cap 'em whether they're women or men.   Throughout the book a lot of original or young themes in the series seem to be coming back into the story...and it didn't make it better)

Brandon's def. more skilled at writing the soul searching, self-depreciating guy than he is at writing a reluctant swashbuckler type (Mat),  cocky ass kicker (Logian), or dominant alpha male hero (Rand).  

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Perrin couldn't eat any of the food he conjured in the Dream World so how does conjured Forkroot work?  I didn't question it until he stuffed Graendal's mouth full of the stuff. Had to put the book for a bit but couldn't think of any reason why it would work.

 

I think it would be the same way an a'dam would work, it's all about the perception. If the person with forkroot in her mouth thinks she really swallowed it, then she wouldn't be able to channel.

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I feel the Perrin arc felt rushed. He just seemed to be thrown out of TAR, saved by Master Luhan and then deals with Slayer and Lanfear. All the while on the periphary. He was set up to be more influential than Mat and though of course he did save Rand's life etc his role was not as great as Mat's nor as exciting or interesting.

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So much had been put on him being a natural leader beloved of the common people, he was the perfect person to take over and lead people into the future.  He was respected by pretty much everyone in the Dragons peace and was one of the Dragon's most trusted friends.  

 

Who's to say that doesn't happen?  We didn't see anything past the day after (or was Rand's funeral the same night?) the Last Battle?

 

I dunno. For me, Lanfear always wanted to be the Big Cheese, And Perrin just.. snap. Nobody will know how or where. She just falls into obscurity The compulsion bit was weird though

 

Agreed that the Compulsion sequence was awkward and a bit out of nowhere.  I liked it a little bit better when I thought of it as Perrin unknowingly walking into one of the nightmares from TOM.  Still seemed awkwardly written, but I was also reading it at like 12:30 in the morning, so who knows. 

 

I definitely liked the quick death for Lanfear.  Not every battle death is going to be the result of a drawn-out, epic fight.  Having the death of the most arrogant Forsaken--the one whose lust for power caused the Bore--be quick, obscure, and mundane is fantastic justice.

 

I'm also surprised that no one has mentioned that Perrin's statement to Egwene in TOM ("it's just a weave") might've been the most influential thing from that book other than the rescue of Moiraine.  Perrin played a huge role in AMOL even when he was missing for hundreds of pages.  (Also thought it was ironic given that Perrin tended to disappear from books in the middle of the series when RJ clearly had no idea what he wanted to do with him.)

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Lanfear was a massive disappointment and made absolutely no sense to me. She was one of the few fleshed out bad guys with motivations beyond, "i like monocles, top hats and wiry little mustaches." It would of been really easy to give her some cool plot twists (knowing the bore led to the DO pre drilling, redemption etc.) but instead they just doubled down on her being one-dimensionaly clingy. Very boring. I have no idea what her plan was with Perrin either? did that make sense to anyone? She wanted to win him over via compulsion so that at the very end they could strike down moiraine and nyneave together so she could pull the dark ones bum out of the fire? Why did she need Perrin for that? She had apparently been hiding out inside the cave right inside the dreamspike for most of the battle, waiting for Perrin. Nyneave and Moiraine were entirely helpless with Rand in control of the circle. She could of taken them out at any time, or if she needed to strike precisely when Rand's Moridin trap had been sprung she could of done that herself without Perrin. Was bizzare and didn't felt very thought out.

 

My understanding was that she needed him (or Slayer) to shift her into the real world because gateways couldn't be opened into Shayol Ghul.

---

 

In other things, I think while it would have been cool to see more exploration of her past and her understanding of the nature of the bore, and maybe learning about her motivations to drill into it in the first place, a redemption arc was definitely NOT possible.  I think she's been shown throughout the books to be irredeemable and she also had the knowledge of how to open the bore - she couldn't have been allowed to live on in after the war to do it again someday.

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Perrin was so good in the Two Rivers.

He was terrible for a lot of books (RJ).

Perrin was as good as the Two Rivers in TGS and ToM.

He was better than the "lot of books" but not as good as Two Rivers or TGS/ToM.

Amen, especially when he went trough that whole the world can burn for all I care all I want is Faile back stage. Perrin never lived up to my expectations.   The whole slayer thing went too long and covered too many books.  I am glad he got his head smushed but seemed too drawn out. 

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Perrin couldn't eat any of the food he conjured in the Dream World so how does conjured Forkroot work?  I didn't question it until he stuffed Graendal's mouth full of the stuff. Had to put the book for a bit but couldn't think of any reason why it would work.

 

That's how Nynaeve dealt with Moghedian at the end of TFoH--fed her forkroot in TAR which knocked her out (and offscreen between books found her and collared her).

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Amys and Egwene had tea in Tel'aran'rhiod on several occasions.  Food can be created and changed in the World of Dreams, so it's definitely believable that Perrin could create forkroot.  He worked with it when he was rescuing Faile so he would be aware enough of it that he could recreate it there.

 

I didn't really get the Lanfear/Perrin pairing either, but I guess that was the only one she could recognize as having a strong enough talent in the dream that she could shift out of it with him. I was a little confused about the coming in the World of Dreams in the flesh.  Slayer and then Perrin were able to do it, but I also thought that when the Wise Ones warned about going there in the flesh I didn't think they were talking about Traveling...I think they knew at least the theoretical "how to" on shifting into the World of Dreams.  Maybe it took a dreamwalker with a strong talent to accomplish the "shift" - but I thought Lanfear and Moghedien were strong dreamwalkers, and they never displayed that ability.  Anyway, maybe that's why she needed Perrin, to get her close enough to Shayol Ghul so she could shift out and kill Rand.

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Amys and Egwene had tea in Tel'aran'rhiod on several occasions.  Food can be created and changed in the World of Dreams, so it's definitely believable that Perrin could create forkroot.  He worked with it when he was rescuing Faile so he would be aware enough of it that he could recreate it there.

 

I didn't really get the Lanfear/Perrin pairing either, but I guess that was the only one she could recognize as having a strong enough talent in the dream that she could shift out of it with him. I was a little confused about the coming in the World of Dreams in the flesh.  Slayer and then Perrin were able to do it, but I also thought that when the Wise Ones warned about going there in the flesh I didn't think they were talking about Traveling...I think they knew at least the theoretical "how to" on shifting into the World of Dreams.  Maybe it took a dreamwalker with a strong talent to accomplish the "shift" - but I thought Lanfear and Moghedien were strong dreamwalkers, and they never displayed that ability.  Anyway, maybe that's why she needed Perrin, to get her close enough to Shayol Ghul so she could shift out and kill Rand.

Well don't forget Egwene also figured out how to do it when she was summomed to go to the rebel Aes Sedai.  Far as I know everyone but Luc and Perrin has to physically enter the world of dreams by channeling. 

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Egwene used the Traveling weave to enter Tel'aran'rhiod physically, just like Rand and Rhavin did.  I was talking more of Perrin's way of forcing himself into a sleep-ish state and then choosing the "path" to shift into the World of Dreams physically, like Slayer did.  I wondered if this was something that people who could dreamwalk knew about but were unable to do unless they were of a particular strength in the dream talent.

 

Like...maybe Amys, Bair and Melaine knew the theory of how to do it but they could not do it themselves because they were not strong enough.  Lanfear claimed the world of dreams, but Birgitte said that Moghedien possessed a stronger Talent for the dream, and neither one of them could do it - at the end Lanfear had to use Compulsion on Perrin to use his ability to get to Shayol Ghul.  I just wondered if it was necessary to be of a certain strength or if anyone could shift like that.

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Also with Perin being able to shift to and from TAR he suddenly became very.. very dangerous.

 

Perrin vs. Slayer could be the best fight of the series. 

 

He did get the coolest action moment of the book imo when he kills slayer, slayer jumping back and forth in disbelief creating a slow motion matrix strobe like effect with alternate realities flashing by and then Perrin turning around to find a bunch of Aiel following him because he looked epic haha.

 

I haven't been convinced about a Wheel of Time movie/television series in the past. It would depend a lot on how well they manage to visually represent channeling the various weaves and compensate for the loss of hearing what's going on inside the head of the POV characters. The final Perrin vs Slayer fight scene instantly changed my mind. Do one movie a year for 14 years, if you want. I don't care; I'll wait. If it turns out even half as bad-ass as I was picturing while listening to the audio version... it will have been worth the wait.

Edited by ChrisHarris
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Was that what Mierin needed him for? My interpretation was that she could attack from TAR because the distance between TAR and the real world was really thin inside the cave, just like how Perrin yelled to Nynaeve. Did Mierin need him to shift her to the real world?

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Perrin couldn't eat any of the food he conjured in the Dream World so how does conjured Forkroot work?  I didn't question it until he stuffed Graendal's mouth full of the stuff. Had to put the book for a bit but couldn't think of any reason why it would work.

 

That's how Nynaeve dealt with Moghedian at the end of TFoH--fed her forkroot in TAR which knocked her out (and offscreen between books found her and collared her).

 

Yeah, it wasn't that Perrin couldn't eat... it was that the food wouldn't nourish him.  The idea behind the forkroot in TAR is that they caused the person to believe that they could no longer channel when really it's just a matter of willpower.

 

Was that what Mierin needed him for? My interpretation was that she could attack from TAR because the distance between TAR and the real world was really thin inside the cave, just like how Perrin yelled to Nynaeve. Did Mierin need him to shift her to the real world?

 

I re-read this sequence last night.  I think Lanfear's plan was to shift from TAR into the PoD and quickly attack.  She mentioned that she couldn't use a gateway to get in there, and other characters repeatedly talked about how they couldn't open a gateway even to get to Shayol Ghul.  And she couldn't shift without a gateway because apparently those with two souls can do that.  They were only just about to attack when Perrin broke free, so there was no shift yet.  Even if the Pattern was getting thinner, there's still no reason to think they could touch Moiraine/Nyn from TAR.  It's the only thing that makes sense.  It's still weird that she wouldn't have TOLD Perrin what she needed him to do though, but I guess it'd be implied if they were going to attack?

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was very disjointed having him out of the action for a good chunk of the book.

 

I'm glad he got Slayer...that was nice justice for Hopper.

 

The Lanfear bit....I gotta say I didn't get his interaction with her...didn't seem like a matchup/fight pairing that made sense.

 

 

Perrin really hit his stride in ToM.  I agree that BS did a hell of a job with that character.  Was hoping for the same sort of excellence in AMoL.  Was disappointed

 

 

(PS.  The 'not killing a woman' bit....seriously?  Pretty sure that needed to be left out at this point....last battle, forsaken, evil...it's time to cap 'em whether they're women or men.   Throughout the book a lot of original or young themes in the series seem to be coming back into the story...and it didn't make it better)

Brandon's def. more skilled at writing the soul searching, self-depreciating guy than he is at writing a reluctant swashbuckler type (Mat),  cocky ass kicker (Logian), or dominant alpha male hero (Rand).  

Not true. If you have read any of his books, especially Mistborn and Alloy of Law you would know that he writes damn fine swashbucklers, cock ass kickers, and alpha males. I thought Perrin and Matt improved under his pen. I know some liked the old Matt but I didn't until BS made him less self absorbed and more likeable.

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I cringed when the chapter started with "Perrin chased Slayer through the skies". I was beyond tired of Perrin chasing Slayer but I admit that it did serve a purpose in this story. I am not sure what Perrin could have done to help Rand with out the Slayer storyline. I was hoping Faile had bit the dust and when he smelled her perfume I thought oh god he is stuck with her for life. I am satisfied with his role in the ending. He contributed a lot to make it come to pass.

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Loved Perrin and Lanfear's interactions all the way through. She was great in this book. And the way he killed her was just so brutal and ironic. Finally someone remembered that she's evil. I do agree with the person who said that he seemed weirdly unworried about Faile at times, though. I would say that BS was avoiding that particular melodrama on purpose, but I sort of thought the same thing about Min with Rand, so...eh.

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Perrin couldn't eat any of the food he conjured in the Dream World so how does conjured Forkroot work?  I didn't question it until he stuffed Graendal's mouth full of the stuff. Had to put the book for a bit but couldn't think of any reason why it would work.

 

That's how Nynaeve dealt with Moghedian at the end of TFoH--fed her forkroot in TAR which knocked her out (and offscreen between books found her and collared her).

 

Yeah, it wasn't that Perrin couldn't eat... it was that the food wouldn't nourish him.  The idea behind the forkroot in TAR is that they caused the person to believe that they could no longer channel when really it's just a matter of willpower.

That's what was throwing me off: It specifically said the food vanished as he ate it.  Was that an error?  It would make lot more sense if he was able to eat the food but it didn't nourish him.

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Egwene used the Traveling weave to enter Tel'aran'rhiod physically, just like Rand and Rhavin did.  I was talking more of Perrin's way of forcing himself into a sleep-ish state and then choosing the "path" to shift into the World of Dreams physically, like Slayer did.  I wondered if this was something that people who could dreamwalk knew about but were unable to do unless they were of a particular strength in the dream talent.

 

Like...maybe Amys, Bair and Melaine knew the theory of how to do it but they could not do it themselves because they were not strong enough.  Lanfear claimed the world of dreams, but Birgitte said that Moghedien possessed a stronger Talent for the dream, and neither one of them could do it - at the end Lanfear had to use Compulsion on Perrin to use his ability to get to Shayol Ghul.  I just wondered if it was necessary to be of a certain strength or if anyone could shift like that.

 

Going by what Slayer was saying about himself and Perrin near the end about them being the same (2 souls combined) it definitely leads me to believe Perrin's, and any human wolf brother, is actually the result of human and wolf souls being combined together.

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Was that what Mierin needed him for? My interpretation was that she could attack from TAR because the distance between TAR and the real world was really thin inside the cave, just like how Perrin yelled to Nynaeve. Did Mierin need him to shift her to the real world?

 

She may have just been insane, comparable to Demandred. Demandred wanted to win only in a very specific way, by beating Lews Therin in a duel. Perhaps Lanfear wanted to win only in a very specific way, of possessing a powerful man who loved her and served as her sidekick.

 

I find Lanfear's possessiveness hard to understand honesty. I know a lot of people have unhealthy approaches to relationships, and sure, a woman can be jealous and possessive. But the way Lanfear combines this with her professional ambitions, of wanting to rule the world, doesn't work for me. Why does she have to conquer the world by having this sick sort of personal relationship with a powerful man? I can see it compartmentalized, with her having these two goals, one public one private. But combining them is just odd.

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Was that what Mierin needed him for? My interpretation was that she could attack from TAR because the distance between TAR and the real world was really thin inside the cave, just like how Perrin yelled to Nynaeve. Did Mierin need him to shift her to the real world?

 

She may have just been insane, comparable to Demandred. Demandred wanted to win only in a very specific way, by beating Lews Therin in a duel. Perhaps Lanfear wanted to win only in a very specific way, of possessing a powerful man who loved her and served as her sidekick.

 

She did, she needed LTT to kneel before her/be under her control before she would be satisfied and, it seems, before she could kill him.

Edited by Finnssss
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She did, she needed LTT to kneel before her/be under her control before she would be satisfied and, it seems, before she could kill him.

 

Ah, that makes a bit more sense to me. I was thinking her main goal was to conquer the world, and she just had this odd fixation about having a man at her side for it. But Perrin's real purpose is that she wants to make LTT jealous before she kills him.

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hi all

 

I liked how surprised I was by the Lanfear and Perrin scenes, but feel like i need to do a reread for the foreshadowing, the prophesy right?

 

I liked perrins arc in general, the new power were very cool, I was waiting for the hammer to has some perticuler use (other than beating down darkhounds though that was cool) however I'm thinking it was step and tool for focusing his powers and so served its purpose.

 

On the evils of the flesh :rolleyes: If you consider that death in the dream was forever (for a while i was confused and though that perrin was in real danger of being stuck in Tar permanently, a creature of the dream alone) this is blasphemy so far as followers of the light are concerned because their faith is based on salvation through rebirth.

 

editted to add

I appreciate how Perrin arc reflected and informed rand's struggle, in the sense of will power to control reality I was waiting for a three together moment till I realised they always were, forming the focus as they were for holding the pattern together in their respective 'zones' .

Edited by Hyronimus
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was very disjointed having him out of the action for a good chunk of the book.

 

I'm glad he got Slayer...that was nice justice for Hopper.

 

The Lanfear bit....I gotta say I didn't get his interaction with her...didn't seem like a matchup/fight pairing that made sense.

 

 

Perrin really hit his stride in ToM. I agree that BS did a hell of a job with that character. Was hoping for the same sort of excellence in AMoL. Was disappointed

 

 

(PS. The 'not killing a woman' bit....seriously? Pretty sure that needed to be left out at this point....last battle, forsaken, evil...it's time to cap 'em whether they're women or men. Throughout the book a lot of original or young themes in the series seem to be coming back into the story...and it didn't make it better)

Brandon's def. more skilled at writing the soul searching, self-depreciating guy than he is at writing a reluctant swashbuckler type (Mat), cocky ass kicker (Logian), or dominant alpha male hero (Rand).
Not true. If you have read any of his books, especially Mistborn and Alloy of Law you would know that he writes damn fine swashbucklers, cock ass kickers, and alpha males. I thought Perrin and Matt improved under his pen. I know some liked the old Matt but I didn't until BS made him less self absorbed and more likeable.

It most certainly is true. Brandon himself admitted that he badly botched Mat and didn't understand the character. Mat was a rogue who was turned into the court jester. There was a ton of RJ in Mat, not so much for Brandon. That type of person is pretty foreign to him.

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