Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Mat's Arc (Full Spoilers)

Recommended Posts

 

I have to completely disagree with you, sorry.  None of us know the characters like RJ did or Harriet does, regardless of how many times we've read the series.

Jordan? Sure. Harriet. Well, sorry to break it to you, bro, but that's pretty dubious

Harriet, as his wife, undoubtedly has far more insight into RJ's mind (and specifically his idea for the characters) than any of us do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, on the Hawkwing-Tuon meeting... I wonder if Hawkwing denounced the usage of damane?  That might be an important step in eliminating their use.

 

I wouldn't bet on that.

 

Battles and campaigns are won by armies, but not wars.

 

Wars are won by values, ideas, culture, and conviction. Mat might be a great commander, but I have doubts about him as a philosopher.

 

Also, in Aviendha's bad future, nothing about how the Seanchan treated female channelers had changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still holding out for a Mat outrigger trilogy. I predict in 5 years time after years of Harriet being badgered by 'any chance of a Mat retakes Seanchan novel? by fans

Harriet may give in :)

Imagine an author like Joe Abercrombie or the like doing a series where there are no limits to what will happen because there is little fortelling, (except maybe Min's

viewing for Tuon of some guy with wolf's teeth). Tuon is going to bring up her children to try and kill each other to be named her successor, Mat will fight this every step

of the way, (seriously this is such a bad marraige, anybody who has been divorced can see this i think) battles, new seanchan bad guys.

Then we could have a Perrin trilogy as he leads a 'peace campaign' into Shara - yeah i'm raving i know, but i can still hold out hope :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People really have this mistaken view of the relation ship between Mat and Tuon in my opinion. It seems very obvious that Tuon has already let him do many things that normally even the Prince of Ravens would be punished or even executed for. Additionally, I believe that even though he would constantly claim otherwise, the complex game of Seanchan politics is something he could enjoy as much as gambling or battle. I think his final scene with Tuon is suggestive of this. Likewise, Tuon DOES love him, but she cannot yet distance herself from the role she has been preparing for for her whole life yet to say so, but she basically admits it to him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People really have this mistaken view of the relation ship between Mat and Tuon in my opinion. It seems very obvious that Tuon has already let him do many things that normally even the Prince of Ravens would be punished or even executed for. Additionally, I believe that even though he would constantly claim otherwise, the complex game of Seanchan politics is something he could enjoy as much as gambling or battle. I think his final scene with Tuon is suggestive of this. Likewise, Tuon DOES love him, but she cannot yet distance herself from the role she has been preparing for for her whole life yet to say so, but she basically admits it to him.

Yes I have to agree. There is a much stronger relationship than most people on here seem to recognize. It's just a VERY unique and dynamic relationship.

that said, Tuon still sucks. 

Mat has been my favorite character since he quarterstaffed the bejesus out of Gawyn and Galad while offering 2:1 odds. But his taste in women is awful. Maybe Mat can find a way to put Tuon on one of those a'dam leashes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am crushed that we won't get to hear more from Mat and Tuon now that AMoL is over.  Their tale is so obviously unfinished (and RJ clearly knows more than he's let on here).  What is the story Min's visions of Tuon would tell?  Why doesn't Tuon still rule in Aviendha's vision of the future?  Does Tuon ever learn to channel?  Will she bond Mat?  What did Hawkwing say to her when they met?  Does Mat still have his outrageous luck (if Perrin is right and they are no longer ta'veren)?

 

I am also disappointed we never learn more about Mat's memories.  I don't mean the ones the Finns gave him, I mean the ones he had before them (e.g., when he screams "Carai an Caldazar" as he throws himself into battle in tEotW).  It's a pretty good bet that Mat is Aemon reborn, but I don't like hearing "No, you're not a hero of the horn" and getting no follow-up on this.  

 

I was hoping for a Mat-v.-Demandred boss fight and was looking forward to Tuon finding out he was the Hornsounder.  More, I was really hoping he would admit to the memories in his head (maybe to convince Egwene and Elayne they should let him take command?).  Small disappointments.  Overall, I was pleased.  I was hoping for more than one conversation between him and Rand, too, though I actually enjoyed the banter.  I thought Robert Jordan wrote that part.

 

I very much liked the part where Mat admitted to Tuon that he plays the fool, and told Selucia he guessed she was a bodyguard.  I also liked that his penmanship "improved" in battle.  These moments reveal that, even when we see things from his POV, we sometimes aren't told that he's being intentionally oblivious.

 

Why did Mat refer to Leilwin as "that Seanchan woman?"  He knows who she is!  Heck, they pretended to be engaged, didn't they?

 

Finally, who was that man Mat didn't quite recognize when he was showing the peasants how to make the poles for the palisade?  I got the impression I was supposed to know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

People really have this mistaken view of the relation ship between Mat and Tuon in my opinion. It seems very obvious that Tuon has already let him do many things that normally even the Prince of Ravens would be punished or even executed for. Additionally, I believe that even though he would constantly claim otherwise, the complex game of Seanchan politics is something he could enjoy as much as gambling or battle. I think his final scene with Tuon is suggestive of this. Likewise, Tuon DOES love him, but she cannot yet distance herself from the role she has been preparing for for her whole life yet to say so, but she basically admits it to him.

Yes I have to agree. There is a much stronger relationship than most people on here seem to recognize. It's just a VERY unique and dynamic relationship.

that said, Tuon still sucks. 

Mat has been my favorite character since he quarterstaffed the bejesus out of Gawyn and Galad while offering 2:1 odds. But his taste in women is awful. Maybe Mat can find a way to put Tuon on one of those a'dam leashes. 

 

That's a nice thought. 

 

My problem about their relationship is that I can't see any qualities about Tuon that would attract someone like Mat.  She does suck.  She's self righteous, cruel, opportunistic, imperious and obstinate.  She's also pretty frosty toward Mat throughout most of their relationship, with the exception of the caricatured, quasi-primitive "you will bed me now" scene in AMOL.  Ugh.  What is there to like?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

People really have this mistaken view of the relation ship between Mat and Tuon in my opinion. It seems very obvious that Tuon has already let him do many things that normally even the Prince of Ravens would be punished or even executed for. Additionally, I believe that even though he would constantly claim otherwise, the complex game of Seanchan politics is something he could enjoy as much as gambling or battle. I think his final scene with Tuon is suggestive of this. Likewise, Tuon DOES love him, but she cannot yet distance herself from the role she has been preparing for for her whole life yet to say so, but she basically admits it to him.

Yes I have to agree. There is a much stronger relationship than most people on here seem to recognize. It's just a VERY unique and dynamic relationship.

that said, Tuon still sucks. 

Mat has been my favorite character since he quarterstaffed the bejesus out of Gawyn and Galad while offering 2:1 odds. But his taste in women is awful. Maybe Mat can find a way to put Tuon on one of those a'dam leashes. 

 

That's a nice thought. 

 

My problem about their relationship is that I can't see any qualities about Tuon that would attract someone like Mat.  She does suck.  She's self righteous, cruel, opportunistic, imperious and obstinate.  She's also pretty frosty toward Mat throughout most of their relationship, with the exception of the caricatured, quasi-primitive "you will bed me now" scene in AMOL.  Ugh.  What is there to like?

I actually really enjoyed Tuon's pov in KoD. I saw glimpses of someone who could challenge Mat and truly be someone he would enjoy over the long haul. 

 

KoD

   Tuon looked at him, squatting there by the map. moving his fingers over its surface, and suddenly she saw him in a new light. A buffoon? No. A lion stuffed into a horse-stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue.

 

The character changed after that book however culminating in AMoL with some absolutely bizarre characterization.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm sure I'm rather biased here.  I've long hated Tuon.  I'm not some huge Egwene fan, but I've been waiting the whole series for someone to say the things Egwene said to her in AMOL.  I wish that scene had been a little more eloquent, but it had some raw power to it nonetheless.  I did recognize passages like the one you quoted as giving her some inner humanity, but all she actually expresses seems to be the qualities I mentioned before.  It seemed like Jordan might have been slowly bringing here around by having Mat soften her up.  I wonder if her imperious demeanor would have continued the way it did in AMOL if he'd still been at the helm.  In the end though, I'm never going to get over the damane thing.  Without that being resolved, I'm pretty much left feeling that she and the Seanchan are a brutal people of confused and superstitious traditions that sorely need to be kicked in the brain.  Every other culture in the series that I can think of evolved more than the Seanchan over the course of the series, and none needed reevaluation of their customs more.  I can't really blame them for being who they are, but I always felt like their harmful traditions should be a more salient point between Mat and Tuon, since he should be able to see them for what they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would have been alot better if Mat went to Ebou Dar with the intention of working on the truce. I can understand why Mat missed the big meeting at Merrilor; he has never really been huge on fanfare and being in front of a crowd.  But he should have gone to see Tuon just so he could convince her to allow him to lead the Seanchan army in TG. None of thise "running from his friends" crap that he got over about six books previous. Not to mention, when did he revert to not trusting Rand? Sometimes, he came across as outright disliking him. Just harkened back to his early days for no particular reason.

 

None of that built on Mats character, or contributed to the story at all. Not once in the book later did he think to himself of running. Once he left Ebou dar, he was fully comitted, which was weird the state of mind he was just previously in. Basically this is what happened...

 

Mat: Man, screw fighting in TG. I am going to go hide in Ebou Dar with Tuon. I dont like responsibility and saving the world.

Rand: Tuon, you must sign the Dragon Peace and help us fight the DO.

Tuon: I dunno..

Mat: Rand is a pretty cool guy, hear him out

Tuon: Okay, done

Mat: Wahoo, time to go to battle. Lets go, hurry up. Its good to be general again

 

I think that's defendable. Mat's always been the one to lie to himself the most. His goal was to protect Tuon initially, but he lied to himself about wanting to hide. I'm sure he had some inclination of going into battle- after all, he did request the horn at the end of the last book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Finally, who was that man Mat didn't quite recognize when he was showing the peasants how to make the poles for the palisade?  I got the impression I was supposed to know.

 

Delarn, the Redarm he saved in Hinderstap. It was your clue to what he had planned for dealing with the river blockage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Mat and Tuon storyline was very good. I really like it :-)
For me they was something like exactly opposite poles. Seriously Mat scoundrel, womanizer, gambler and he hates lords etc. Other side is Tuon,empress and on first sieght  very cold person. And we cant know how exactly was RJ planning they relationship to grow. After all he planned some  novels with them and we dont know how he planed to build up they relationship in these novels...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm sure I'm rather biased here.  I've long hated Tuon.  I'm not some huge Egwene fan,

Can I ask you why you hate them ???:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been pretty unconvinced by Mat and Tuon's relationship since it started and remain so now the story is finished.  I actually find 90% of their interaction very interesting and enjoyable reading, but the idea of them being lovers and Mat being attracted to her has never seemed right.  It just doesn't seem to fit with his character,  I can see why its neccessary as only his role as Prince of Ravens gives him the freedom and power with the Seanchan that he needs for the plot, but I wish there had a been a way to manage this without making them get married.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been pretty unconvinced by Mat and Tuon's relationship since it started and remain so now the story is finished.  I actually find 90% of their interaction very interesting and enjoyable reading, but the idea of them being lovers and Mat being attracted to her has never seemed right.  It just doesn't seem to fit with his character,  I can see why its neccessary as only his role as Prince of Ravens gives him the freedom and power with the Seanchan that he needs for the plot, but I wish there had a been a way to manage this without making them get married.

I think we agree that we disagree in this topic :-) I really  think that Mat and Tuon fit together pretty well :-) + Tuon trust Mat a lot dont you think ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Finally, who was that man Mat didn't quite recognize when he was showing the peasants how to make the poles for the palisade?  I got the impression I was supposed to know.

 

Delarn, the Redarm he saved in Hinderstap. It was your clue to what he had planned for dealing with the river blockage.

 

Oh, cool.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I thought it might have been someone from the Two Rivers he couldn't remember because of the holes in his memory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually think mat is more secure than people think with tuon- look at his reaction to her saying she can kill him... he just laughed. My fave line with mat was his letter to galad about trollocs with quarterstaffs ...anyone got that line to hand?. Im at work

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually think mat is more secure than people think with tuon- look at his reaction to her saying she can kill him... he just laughed. My fave line with mat was his letter to galad about trollocs with quarterstaffs ...anyone got that line to hand?. Im at work

i don't remember the line specifically, but it was a laugh out loud moment for me. 

 

Comments like these are why Mat is by far the most entertaining character IMO.

I was anticipating a showdown with Mat and Demandred throughout that 200 page chapter.  With Demandred's whole attitude of "can't believe I'm always second-place to the Dragon" and Mat's attitude of "the Dragon can have all the attention he wants; I don't want to be the main guy" it seemed to me like they were destined to showdown - it would be the ultimate insult to Demandred's ego to be defeated by the Dragon's "back-up".

Though I can't say I was disappointed with the actual result and Lan sheathing the sword.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure Tuon does love Mat, the poor girl just has no idea what love is thanks to her upbringing.  It would have been something for RJ to play with in the Outrigger series. 

 

I really enjoyed Mat in these last two books.  It's amazing how split people are on it, with all the people who already hated Sanderson hating this book too.  Wait, that's not amazing at all, it's a self fufilling prophecy.  Seriously there's about 5 people here who need to form their own "I hate Brandon Sanderson" forum and stop trying to make that the topic of every single thread on this forum.  I don't even disagree with all of the criticisms, but it's not what I want to read or discuss.  I was pretty sure that a thread was especially made for this stuff too, but of course that "rule" was never truly followed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Tuon-Mat relationship....well, it's never felt 'easy' or maybe like most of the other relationships that seem to 'make sense'.   Lan and Nynaeve for example, with him worrying about her safety and her worried that she isn't at her best in front of him....etc.   Tuon and Mat didn't have that same 'tentative' and 'longing' that most of the other couples had...sort of makes their relationship seem strained, or cold, or just bizarre.

 

I think that people are right though.  They are going to be good for each other, we're just (at AMoL) beginning to get to the 'more open' part of their relationship.  They put a lot of faith and trust into each other and it's finally starting to show.

 

 

 

I PERSONALLY always hated how suddenly Mat went back to book 2-3 where Rand was dangerous and un-trustworthy and Mat wanted to bail out on fighting.   I think he'd grown past that point, learned to trust his friend, and especially had learned to shoulder the responsibility of command.   He grumbled about it, but would do it as it was the right move.   I think it's more the TONE that was wrong.  Instead of grumbling it was flat out decisions, actions, or statements.  Fine line, but IMO it makes a difference.  Irked me.  Wasted space in the book for something that I thought we'd left behind...

Edited by Jak o' the Shadows

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure Tuon does love Mat, the poor girl just has no idea what love is thanks to her upbringing.  It would have been something for RJ to play with in the Outrigger series. 

 

I really enjoyed Mat in these last two books.  It's amazing how split people are on it, with all the people who already hated Sanderson hating this book too.  Wait, that's not amazing at all, it's a self fufilling prophecy.  Seriously there's about 5 people here who need to form their own "I hate Brandon Sanderson" forum and stop trying to make that the topic of every single thread on this forum.  I don't even disagree with all of the criticisms, but it's not what I want to read or discuss.  I was pretty sure that a thread was especially made for this stuff too, but of course that "rule" was never truly followed. 

Agree I have problem with how BS create some storyline (resp only one GAwyn Egwene:) but in the end we got book and we get ending of WOT !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure Tuon does love Mat, the poor girl just has no idea what love is thanks to her upbringing.  It would have been something for RJ to play with in the Outrigger series. 

 

I really enjoyed Mat in these last two books.  It's amazing how split people are on it, with all the people who already hated Sanderson hating this book too.  Wait, that's not amazing at all, it's a self fufilling prophecy.  Seriously there's about 5 people here who need to form their own "I hate Brandon Sanderson" forum and stop trying to make that the topic of every single thread on this forum.  I don't even disagree with all of the criticisms, but it's not what I want to read or discuss.  I was pretty sure that a thread was especially made for this stuff too, but of course that "rule" was never truly followed. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure Tuon does love Mat, the poor girl just has no idea what love is thanks to her upbringing.  It would have been something for RJ to play with in the Outrigger series. 

 

I really enjoyed Mat in these last two books.  It's amazing how split people are on it, with all the people who already hated Sanderson hating this book too.  Wait, that's not amazing at all, it's a self fufilling prophecy.  Seriously there's about 5 people here who need to form their own "I hate Brandon Sanderson" forum and stop trying to make that the topic of every single thread on this forum.  I don't even disagree with all of the criticisms, but it's not what I want to read or discuss.  I was pretty sure that a thread was especially made for this stuff too, but of course that "rule" was never truly followed. 

agreed. i actually think sanderson did a great job writing the finale. what a big task. lots of the complaints on here are that this book was no character and all battle. But it's important to remember that all 3 of the last books together are actually the one gigantic book that jordan/sanderson wanted to finish with, and Tor/Harriet split it into the 3 (and thank god they did because it would otherwise weigh 25 lbs.) but all 3 taken together show a great character finish of Rand, Egwene, Perrin, Mat and a big battle at the end. what's not to like? that's pretty much what i expected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm sure I'm rather biased here.  I've long hated Tuon.  I'm not some huge Egwene fan, but I've been waiting the whole series for someone to say the things Egwene said to her in AMOL.  I wish that scene had been a little more eloquent, but it had some raw power to it nonetheless.  I did recognize passages like the one you quoted as giving her some inner humanity, but all she actually expresses seems to be the qualities I mentioned before.  It seemed like Jordan might have been slowly bringing here around by having Mat soften her up.  I wonder if her imperious demeanor would have continued the way it did in AMOL if he'd still been at the helm.  In the end though, I'm never going to get over the damane thing.  Without that being resolved, I'm pretty much left feeling that she and the Seanchan are a brutal people of confused and superstitious traditions that sorely need to be kicked in the brain.  Every other culture in the series that I can think of evolved more than the Seanchan over the course of the series, and none needed reevaluation of their customs more.  I can't really blame them for being who they are, but I always felt like their harmful traditions should be a more salient point between Mat and Tuon, since he should be able to see them for what they are.

completely agree. Mat wouldn't look past the Damane/Aes Sedai on a chain thing. that's irredeemable. That's like saying "she's a really wonderful person who loves me, so I can look past the whole part about her being a slave-owner. That's just the society she grew up in" uh, no. that does not fly for me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am pretty certain Tuon does love Mat, and very much.  I mean, look at what she lets him get away with?  Ta'veren or not, she would have punished him dearly if she didn't love him a great deal.  I mean, when it was all over and he was most likely no longer ta'veren, and she being with child as well, she practically had no more use for him.  She even admitted she was off the hook now and could just kill him.  But she doesn't(We know this because there story continues on in even though there won't be any outriggers).  I mean, here we have an empress who is hard nailed on custom and tradition, and Mat goes against almost everything.  She should have had him killed as soon as the battle was over.  But she doesn't.  So yeah, she won't admit it, and perhaps doesn't even know what she feels is love, but she's head over heels down right extensively smitten with him.  Burn me to bloody ashes, I'd eat all your boots and chase them down with your sweaty flaming socks if she isn't.

 

Anyways, I loved Mat's arc.  He's by far my favorite character in the series.  And I love how BS has written him.  I know some of yall don't like BS' sense of humor, but I love it and think he did a right fine job of it.  As for Tuon, I think her arc was really good as well.  And I understand her too.  She is so much like my sister its eerie.  She acts cold, but inside she is indeed very caring and is stubborn to boot.  Everything has to be done a certain way and too her standards or you'll never hear the end of it.  So yeah, she's a perfect match for Mat.  They are exact opposites and slowly they are rubbing off on each other.  They balance each other out, which is fitting for this series.

 

I know a lot of people dislike her for being Seanchan, and a sul'dam at that, but remember not all sul'dam are like the one that caught Egwene.  Like Tuon, a lot of them actually care about damane and treat them well.  Hell they down right spoil them most of the time and a lot of damane are really truly happy.  They are not a bad people, just different.  Yes, they have some bad people, but every society does.  The world isn't so black and white.  Hell, give me a choice between being a leashed damane to a caring sul'dam or a regular servant to some Cairhien or Tairan noble and I'd choose the leash with out hesitation.

 

And a little off topic.  I have a question.  I asked this in another thread, but it never got answered.  Does anyone know if an a'dam will work on a male channeler if controled by another male who can channel/learn?  I know if a male who can learn does it with a female damane they both die, but we've never seen a man controling another man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...