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Mat's Arc (Full Spoilers)

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The Mat/Tylin topic has been raging for years, it has no bearing on aMoL. Feel free to start a topic in the General Discussion forum, but there is no need to ignite it in this thread, much less in two threads at once. 

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Ya didn't mean to reignite it. If Suttree quotes the actual rape there and not more of the buildup I'll continue it there.

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Ya didn't mean to reignite it. If Suttree quotes the actual rape there and not more of the buildup I'll continue it there.

Rape includes the buildup... In fact that is more of what makes it rape than opposed to a sexual encounter. Can you describe a rape while ignoring the entire buildup?

Edited by shortkut

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With my first post ever on DM, I'm going to change the topic. :)

 

I just finished MoL a couple of days ago and loved it. Mat was always one of my favorite characters and I absolutely loved the "one-up" exchange between him and Rand. It actually made me chuckle out loud like a weirdo on the subway when I read it.

 

What I didn't like however (and I didn't notice this until after I finished the book) was that we never heard of Mat going to visit Rand on his "death bed". This really doesn't sit well with me and should have been given a quick line or two in Mat's final pages. I'm going to tell myself it happened regardless but I feel this omission was a big oversight that damages such a great character.

Edited by Dice

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I like that BS didn't drag out the aftermath. So many novels (e.g. lord of the rings, the Belgariad/Mallorean, etc.) drag out the aftermath of the final battle. BS kept it short but sweet. Plus, I think after the huge role Mat played in the final battle, he was probably happy just to sneak away with his little empress and play a little game of sul'dam and damane, if you know what I mean *wink* *wink*.

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Yeah I felt a bit bad when Mat (and I think Perrin too) did not show up for the funeral, since the three Rand girlfriends' reaction was horrible it would have been nice to see his friends' reactions, but I'm not complaining, sometimes it's a good thing to let readers use their imagination.

Edited by hime

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Yeah I felt a bit bad when Mat (and I think Perrin too) did not show up for the funeral, since the three Rand girlfriends' reaction was horrible it would have been nice to see his friends' reactions, but I'm not complaining, sometimes it's a good thing to let readers use their imagination.

Well, they had already said their goodbyes to Rand, and everybody already knew that Rand was going to die, so there really wasn't all that much to say.

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Yeah I felt a bit bad when Mat (and I think Perrin too) did not show up for the funeral, since the three Rand girlfriends' reaction was horrible it would have been nice to see his friends' reactions, but I'm not complaining, sometimes it's a good thing to let readers use their imagination.

Well, they had already said their goodbyes to Rand, and everybody already knew that Rand was going to die, so there really wasn't all that much to say.

Well the girls knew something was up most likely do to the bond.

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Of course they knew, but shouldn't they have put up a show of some sort?

but this is off topic, we are discussing why Mat and Perrin weren't there..or maybe they were but are not mentioned?..I don't know it's a bit strange for Perrin at least.

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Of course they knew, but shouldn't they have put up a show of some sort?

but this is off topic, we are discussing why Mat and Perrin weren't there..or maybe they were but are not mentioned?..I don't know it's a bit strange for Perrin at least.

 

Mat has less of an excuse, though it may be in-character to avoid difficult situations like that (he'd have paid tribute eventually, I think). Perrin had previously made a choice to go to Rand and abandon Faile. That tore at him deeply. He needed to go back the second his obligation to Rand/the world was met. If Faile had died, I don't think he'd ever have forgiven himself or been able to convince himself that he'd made the right choice.

Edited by Agitel

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With my first post ever on DM, I'm going to change the topic. :)

I just finished MoL a couple of days ago and loved it. Mat was always one of my favorite characters and I absolutely loved the "one-up" exchange between him and Rand. It actually made me chuckle out loud like a weirdo on the subway when I read it.

What I didn't like however (and I didn't notice this until after I finished the book) was that we never heard of Mat going to visit Rand on his "death bed". This really doesn't sit well with me and should have been given a quick line or two in Mat's final pages. I'm going to tell myself it happened regardless but I feel this omission was a big oversight that damages such a great character.

  

Yeah I felt a bit bad when Mat (and I think Perrin too) did not show up for the funeral, since the three Rand girlfriends' reaction was horrible it would have been nice to see his friends' reactions, but I'm not complaining, sometimes it's a good thing to let readers use their imagination.

To me it wasn't really that he missed the funeral-it was more that he didn't visit Rand while he was "dying". I have to think that he did and we just didn't see it.

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I wish there would have been a Perrin, Mat, and Nyn grouping. Perrin and Nyn had it but it would have been nice to see all thee of them around Rands death bed discussing him and Egwene

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I apologize if I am re-hashing things that have already been said here -- most likely I am.  But I only finished AMoL recently, and I haven't had much time until now to check out the discussions here, and I would like to add some of my thoughts.

 

As with many WoT fans, Mat is one of my favorite characters, maybe my very favorite.  I know that Brandon had some difficulty getting Mat's "voice" right at first, but in AMoL, I think he nails it.  Mat's personality really comes across exactly right in this book, and his scenes are great fun to read as usual.  Kudos to Brandon for nailing Mat's complex personality.

 

However, something really bothered me about Mat in this book.  Mat is supposed to be an outstandingly awesome general, and we certainly have seen great examples of this in earlier books, like his campaign of harrying the Seanchan with rapidly moving forces of crossbowmen in Knife of Dreams.  But in AMoL, Mat just didn't come across to me as such a great general in these battles.  First he gets put in charge of the battle that Bryne was leading, and he proceeds to lose the battle (or to get to the point where loss is inevitable and they have to retreat).  Maybe some would argue that loss was inevitable, but it seems to me that Mat should have found a path to victory,

 

Then Mat is in charge of the Last Battle, and he just doesn't get the job done at all.  He sends away the Seanchan, which admittedly is meant to be a trick, but did he really improve his odds by having a large segment of his forces sit out hour after hour while his remaining forces were getting clobbered?  (I'm reminded of the scene in Cheers:  Harry: "I'm just toying with him, giving him a false sense of security."  Sam: "No, Harry, I think you're giving him a genuine sense of security.")

 

And then after sending the Seanchan away, Mat makes no effort to stay in contact with Elayne or with the Aes Sedai, and he basically just takes charge of one segment of the battle, leaving the other forces to fend for themselves.  I can see an argument for this behavior based on Mat's tendency to being irresponsible and headstrong, but I don't buy it.  He was put in charge of the battle, and he seemed to abdicate that responsibility, which seems to me to be out of character. 

 

I guess one could argue that Mat did as good as or better than anyone else could have done in the same situation, but he just didn't come out looking like the great battle leader that he is supposed to be.  Right now, I am trying to think of a single example of a brilliant tactic that he used in any battle in AMoL, and I can't really think of any.  (UPDATE:  OK, I thought of one:  Hiding the dragons underground and then firing them through gateways was very clever.)

 

Moving on, here are a few other miscellaneous observations, on both Mat and Fortuona:

 

  • Having Min become Fortuona's Truthspeaker was a brilliant move!  I have to say that I didn't see that coming at all.  It would have been great to see more about her presence with the Seanchan in the outriggers, had RJ been able to write them.
  • I wish we could have read about Artur Hawkwing meeting Fortuona.  It's really too bad that that happened offscreen.  Mainly I would love to know whether she believed that he really was Artur Hawkwing.
  • Mat's killing of Padan Fain came across as very sudden, and very weak (plot-wise).  Fain had been built up throughout the series as just ludicrously evil and dangerous, and then all of a sudden Mat just kills him.  It felt a bit like Indiana Jones shooting the swordmaster in Raiders of the Lost Ark (only you have to imagine that Lucas and Spielberg had spent 14 movies building up the swordmaster as the baddest of bad guys first, before Indiana Jones whips out a gun and shoots him).  I really thought that Fain would be crucial to the ending, and that maybe he would even be the wild card that makes this turning of the Wheel different and somehow allows Rand to kill the Dark One.  Oh well.
  • I loved Mat's scene with Fortuona in the garden.  Really well done -- from Mat saving her from the assassin, to Mat and Fortuona consummating their marriage with Deathwatch Guards all around.  :-)
Edited by Paul H

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Three steps away, he found his hat. He grinned, snatched it up and set it on his head,

then began whistling as he rested the ashandarei on his shoulder and strolled away.

 

Even if not the official ending, that's the last epic Mat-moment in the series. He strolls away as he always has done in the series, but now whistling, happy. Mat the rogue. 

 

I didn't get what I was wishing for in this book; Mat against Demandred, or Mat against a few Myrdraals. And the other characters looking at him in awe. That's the naive dreams I had. Yes, him as a genius general came through, only we didn't see much of the genius. There was no epic-general moment, except Hinderstap-army or dragoners in caves. Also, why couldn't he just have SOME sort of interaction with his father? We at least get this one: 

 

"Cauthon lives," Arganda said.

"And that's bloody amazing considering someone blew up his command post, set fire to his tent,

killed a bunch of his damane, and chased off his wife. Cauthon crawled out of it somehow."

 

"Ha!" Abell Cauthon said. "That's my boy."

 

Love that part. But the best one comes again:

 

 

Three steps away, he found his hat. He grinned, snatched it up and set it on his head, 

then began whistling as he rested the ashandarei on his shoulder and strolled away.

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What are your thoughts on why Mat is not going to be a legendary hero summoned with the horn? I was a bit surprised when Arthur Hawkving told him that..

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What are your thoughts on why Mat is not going to be a legendary hero summoned with the horn? I was a bit surprised when Arthur Hawkving told him that..

He didn't want to be a hero of horn.

 

BTW: Does any one think the Hiderstaper things ridiculous? They were killed by Dreadlords and shadowspawns in a few hours when they were in zombie-like form, and they beat down the same enimies when they were nomal farmers. Though the dreadlords and shadowspawns were in panic, they were still much more powerful than untrained farmers. 

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I thought they did get pretty much wiped out at the LB and someone commented about Mat just throwing away soldiers but he needed troops he could safely sacrifice for his plan with the river flooding.

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What are your thoughts on why Mat is not going to be a legendary hero summoned with the horn? I was a bit surprised when Arthur Hawkving told him that..

He didn't want to be a hero of horn.

 

BTW: Does any one think the Hiderstaper things ridiculous? They were killed by Dreadlords and shadowspawns in a few hours when they were in zombie-like form, and they beat down the same enimies when they were nomal farmers. Though the dreadlords and shadowspawns were in panic, they were still much more powerful than untrained farmers. 

 

I thought the horn summoned those who have more courage and abilities than others, and who is more fit than Mat? I dont think he has a say in that... There is probably some other reason..

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However, something really bothered me about Mat in this book.  Mat is supposed to be an outstandingly awesome general, and we certainly have seen great examples of this in earlier books, like his campaign of harrying the Seanchan with rapidly moving forces of crossbowmen in Knife of Dreams.  But in AMoL, Mat just didn't come across to me as such a great general in these battles.  First he gets put in charge of the battle that Bryne was leading, and he proceeds to lose the battle (or to get to the point where loss is inevitable and they have to retreat).  Maybe some would argue that loss was inevitable, but it seems to me that Mat should have found a path to victory,

 

I thin k it is the difference between Robert Jordan's military and military history background and Brandon Sanderson's lack of such.  Some of the smaller battles in the previous couple of books might have been easier to portray Mat's military genius, but in the final, epic battle, I think Sanderson was missing that little bit of personal experience to put the edge into this writing.

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However, something really bothered me about Mat in this book.  Mat is supposed to be an outstandingly awesome general, and we certainly have seen great examples of this in earlier books, like his campaign of harrying the Seanchan with rapidly moving forces of crossbowmen in Knife of Dreams.  But in AMoL, Mat just didn't come across to me as such a great general in these battles.  First he gets put in charge of the battle that Bryne was leading, and he proceeds to lose the battle (or to get to the point where loss is inevitable and they have to retreat).  Maybe some would argue that loss was inevitable, but it seems to me that Mat should have found a path to victory,

 

I thin k it is the difference between Robert Jordan's military and military history background and Brandon Sanderson's lack of such.  Some of the smaller battles in the previous couple of books might have been easier to portray Mat's military genius, but in the final, epic battle, I think Sanderson was missing that little bit of personal experience to put the edge into this writing.

 The lack of experience showed but also Brandon per usual used his "tell don't show" style. We got a ton of what characters did and were "told" that the tactics were brilliant. That obviously falls far short of actually showing brilliant tactics. Add to that the missing channelers and underuse of the OP in battle tactics and we have a LB that was fundamentally changed from what it's true nature should have been. OP usage felt tacked on and was used almost as an afterthought in very blunt ways. RJ's way of actually "showing" what the characters thought and felt was far more effective/immersive. We know Brandon was trying to make us feel how long and tiring the LB was, unfortunately it just turned into a slog of trolloc fodder to get through.

Edited by Suttree

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Hi, everyone actually I have to agree with sutt BS just  did not get it he never got to show anything he just plainly told us that this is brilliant because i am saying so. While RJ made even numb skulls like me see that what a brilliant manoeuvre someone has just pulled off. 

Edited by muddasssir

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There's too many fighting details and too little battlefield overview.

 

There should be some specific numbers about how many shadowspawn, dreadlord and sharan involved. Mat and Demandred needed some real  reaction to each other's tactics. Now we only many seperated POVs about endless trolloc killing and channllers fiighting. 

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What are your thoughts on why Mat is not going to be a legendary hero summoned with the horn? I was a bit surprised when Arthur Hawkving told him that..

 

 

I think it's because Mat is the Son of Battles.

 

 

The Wheel will need Mat reincarnated when history repeats itself, so he can't be tied to the horn.

 

 

It's like tying Rand to the horn.  If Rand was tied to the horn, he couldn't be the dragon when he needed to be.

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It's like tying Rand to the horn.  If Rand was tied to the horn, he couldn't be the dragon when he needed to be.

 Rand is tied to the horn...

 

 

 

Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998 Pam Basham

Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):

"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan
This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.
Pam Basham
In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme—because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)
 

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