Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Mat's Arc (Full Spoilers)

Recommended Posts

On a more serious note, if this was truly intended to examine the evil of rape, then it failed spectacularly and is really a terrible insult to those who have really been sexually assaulted. To try to make it funny and have the victim think of the assault fondly is something I will not accuse RJ of suggesting has anything to do with being raped, and if anybody actually thinks that is appropriate then they need to take a serious attempt at reflecting on how they view this topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think her intent through the use of the term 'comical undertones' was more in the light of rape being a serious subject, like other things in life are, is sometimes more approachable as far as a topic of discussion when approached from a different angle.

As in some people have a really hard time talking about some things, and comedy allows us to examine those situations without direct confrontation, so to speak, that would otherwise undermine the ability for discourse - In other words people feel easier approaching a subject when you can find something comedic angle of approach, whether it be rape, or something like ptsd for example.

It's a means of being able to cope with complex events without having your brain go too coo-coo, for lack of better words, if that makes sense.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a more serious note, if this was truly intended to examine the evil of rape, then it failed spectacularly and is really a terrible insult to those who have really been sexually assaulted. To try to make it funny and have the victim think of the assault fondly is something I will not accuse RJ of suggesting has anything to do with being raped, and if anybody actually thinks that is appropriate then they need to take a serious attempt at reflecting on how they view this topic.

^ I completely agree. It totally trivialized rape and made us blame the victim, because it had those bizarre comic undertones. I don't think it was a realistic human reaction at all, unless we consider that Mat was trying to rationalize the events out of shame, but there's not a hint of that.  It shows that while RJ was a great writer, he made some big mistakes and had some dubious opinions. I don't think RJ was trying to necessarily associate it with being raped, I think it was just a failed attempt of showing how a man being sexually assaulted/harassed by a woman is funny. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's finish the quote:
 
ACoS

"What are you going to do?" he mumbled through his teeth. A stretched neck put a strain in his voice. A stretched neck among other things. "Well?" He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands. "What are you going to do?" Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question. That, and the one he asked her. If she intended to kill him, a shove of her wrist right there would drive the dagger straight up into his brain. "Will you answer me!" That was not panic in his voice. He was not in a panic.It was too much.

 
There is no question what this was. Him being "Mat Cauthon" as opposed to a female doesn't change a thing. It's clear from how it was written and we have the quote. Now you can discuss whether it was handled well but there is no question around what it was.
 

Interview: 2012                                                           
Twitter 2012 (WoT) (Verbatim)                                                                                                                                
                                            
Brandon Sanderson (29 August 2012)                                            
                                          
I'll be reading a new section from A Memory of Light at Dragon*Con. My complete schedule is here.


Brandon Sanderson (2 September)
Tor dot com has posted the excerpt from A Memory of Light that I'm reading today.
W.S.E. (3 September)
A little disgusted that you included a throwaway line about Tylin raping Mat. Still buying the book though. Probably twice.
 
Brandon Sanderson Hard to ignore that it happened, returning to the city as he was.
Luckers
 
... you re-awakened the Mat/Tylin sexual assault vs. super funny joke fury. Ahh the indignant fandom. *sighs*
Brandon Sanderson
*sighs in agreement*
W.S.E. I feel the same way about all the characters saying "you go Tylin" in A Crown of Swords, too. Brandon Sanderson
It is one of the WoT's most controversial sequences, to be sure.

 

Luckers had a good post on this:
 

And lets not forget that a part of that 'not minding' came about because, as a man, there was a strong social push that supported the fact that he should enjoy it. When he litterally told Elayne flat out she laughed. She attempted to appear appalled, yet she was giggling at him.

The reverse of that would be astonishing. A woman who was ignored when she said no, threatened with a knife, restrained and locked up... she would have had the recourse to approaching others for aid, but Mat, as a man, did not have that.

What Tylin did to him was rape, and the way she emotionally infantalized him was near as disgusting an abuse as the actual act of not stopping when he told her too. Even the Ebou Dari, whom have a strong matriarchal control, agreed that what Tylin was doing was wrong. Elayne's reaction was equally disgusting.
 

Quote

If he'd been kicking and screaming and fled the palace, then I'd think differently.


What man could do such a thing in the face of an over-amorous woman? It'd be humiliating. She played on that too--he had no recourse because, of course, men cannot be raped by women. Or so its said.
 

Quote

>>

Besides, an unwilling man theoretically cannot be raped, I guess.


Studies have shown that quite often women experience some degree of sexual arousal during rape (specifically the more 'gentle' rape--as in rape wherein there is no great degree of violence used. Often situations were the person knows their attacked--spousal rape or incestuos rape), right up to and including orgasm. Sexual arousal does not mean that a violation did not occur, or that the person was 'asking for it'.

No means no, end of game. Mat said no, she didn't listen--and actively restrained him at times, utilizing a knife and other people as well as manipulating his emotional belief in the way he should act towards a woman. That's rape.
 

Quote

Mat enjoyed it, he just didn't enjoy not being the one doing the chasing.  Also, Mat isn't exactly helpless.  After the first incident, he could have run off, or he could have fought back, so he wasn't too unwilling.


He couldn't have run off, he'd given his word both to Rand and to Elayne. Mat never breaks his word. Within that he did everything in his power to
avoid her, but she was Queen, and utilized her social position to make sure he couldn't stay away from her. And how could he have fought back or made a major issue? She was a woman, his entire upbringing stopped him from making a big deal out of it.

Doesn't mean it wasn't rape, or that its effects were in some way less traumatic. He shows clearly how uncomfortable he is with the whole issue, even if he can't verbalise it.

Mat fought it in every way he could bring himself to. And she continued.

It's reprehensible--but yes, it does make for an interesting role reversal within the concept of the plot--but its certainly not 'funny'.

 

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think her intent through the use of the term 'comical undertones' was more in the light of rape being a serious subject, like other things in life are, is sometimes more approachable as far as a topic of discussion when approached from a different angle.

 

As in some people have a really hard time talking about some things, and comedy allows us to examine those situations without direct confrontation, so to speak, that would otherwise undermine the ability for discourse - In other words people feel easier approaching a subject when you can find something comedic angle of approach, whether it be rape, or something like ptsd for example.

 

It's a means of being able to cope with complex events without having your brain go too coo-coo, for lack of better words, if that makes sense.

 

 

I might buy that if there wasn't plenty of actual rape in the series to be dealt with head-on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Let's finish the quote:

 

ACoS

 

"What are you going to do?" he mumbled through his teeth. A stretched neck put a strain in his voice. A stretched neck among other things. "Well?" He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands. "What are you going to do?" Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question. That, and the one he asked her. If she intended to kill him, a shove of her wrist right there would drive the dagger straight up into his brain. "Will you answer me!" That was not panic in his voice. He was not in a panic.It was too much.

There is no question what this was. Him being "Mat Cauthon" as opposed to a female doesn't change a thing. It's clear from how it was written and we have the quote. Now you can discuss whether it was handled well but there is no question around what it was.

Interview: 2012

Twitter 2012 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

Brandon Sanderson (29 August 2012)

 

I'll be reading a new section from A Memory of Light at Dragon*Con. My complete schedule is here.

 

 

Brandon Sanderson (2 September)

Tor dot com has posted the excerpt from A Memory of Light that I'm reading today.

W.S.E. (3 September)

A little disgusted that you included a throwaway line about Tylin raping Mat. Still buying the book though. Probably twice.

 

Brandon Sanderson Hard to ignore that it happened, returning to the city as he was.

Luckers

 

... you re-awakened the Mat/Tylin sexual assault vs. super funny joke fury. Ahh the indignant fandom. *sighs*

Brandon Sanderson

*sighs in agreement*

W.S.E. I feel the same way about all the characters saying "you go Tylin" in A Crown of Swords, too. Brandon Sanderson

It is one of the WoT's most controversial sequences, to be sure.

Luckers had a good post on this:

And lets not forget that a part of that 'not minding' came about because, as a man, there was a strong social push that supported the fact that he should enjoy it. When he litterally told Elayne flat out she laughed. She attempted to appear appalled, yet she was giggling at him.

 

The reverse of that would be astonishing. A woman who was ignored when she said no, threatened with a knife, restrained and locked up... she would have had the recourse to approaching others for aid, but Mat, as a man, did not have that.

 

What Tylin did to him was rape, and the way she emotionally infantalized him was near as disgusting an abuse as the actual act of not stopping when he told her too. Even the Ebou Dari, whom have a strong matriarchal control, agreed that what Tylin was doing was wrong. Elayne's reaction was equally disgusting.

 

Quote

 

If he'd been kicking and screaming and fled the palace, then I'd think differently.

What man could do such a thing in the face of an over-amorous woman? It'd be humiliating. She played on that too--he had no recourse because, of course, men cannot be raped by women. Or so its said.

 

Quote

>>

Besides, an unwilling man theoretically cannot be raped, I guess.

Studies have shown that quite often women experience some degree of sexual arousal during rape (specifically the more 'gentle' rape--as in rape wherein there is no great degree of violence used. Often situations were the person knows their attacked--spousal rape or incestuos rape), right up to and including orgasm. Sexual arousal does not mean that a violation did not occur, or that the person was 'asking for it'.

 

No means no, end of game. Mat said no, she didn't listen--and actively restrained him at times, utilizing a knife and other people as well as manipulating his emotional belief in the way he should act towards a woman. That's rape.

 

Quote

Mat enjoyed it, he just didn't enjoy not being the one doing the chasing. Also, Mat isn't exactly helpless. After the first incident, he could have run off, or he could have fought back, so he wasn't too unwilling.

He couldn't have run off, he'd given his word both to Rand and to Elayne. Mat never breaks his word. Within that he did everything in his power to

avoid her, but she was Queen, and utilized her social position to make sure he couldn't stay away from her. And how could he have fought back or made a major issue? She was a woman, his entire upbringing stopped him from making a big deal out of it.

 

Doesn't mean it wasn't rape, or that its effects were in some way less traumatic. He shows clearly how uncomfortable he is with the whole issue, even if he can't verbalise it.

 

Mat fought it in every way he could bring himself to. And she continued.

 

It's reprehensible--but yes, it does make for an interesting role reversal within the concept of the plot--but its certainly not 'funny'.

The problem with all of that is you are reading many more suppositions into it than I am. Mat is socialized to allow himself to be raped. Elayne thinks rape is funny. Mat somehow can kill a Grey Man but can't escape Tylin. Or he could, but would be "humiliated" even tho we've seen him turn aggressive women down, etc.

 

What I say fits the character as we know him perfectly.

 

You're free to read all of that into the scene and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just highlight the leaps involved.

 

As for Brandon, his opinion (assuming the "it" refers to his opinion of it as rape vs. just the situation being referenced) is as definitive as yours or mine.

 

The fact that he chose to have Mat look back fondly - a fact you ignore or discount - either says he has a warped idea of rape that you buy into, or it's not that simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I agree with Sutt and the others, that the Tylin incident was rape, the first time I read it, it did seem fairly lighthearted, mostly because of the writing style, and the fact that it's Mat, who takes everything light-hearted.

 

It was only when I thought about it, that I started to see the similarities between dismissing it as 'it's only Mat and he's a skirt-chaser' and the attitude that 'girls ask for it if they wear heels and short skirts'. It's now one of the things I dread reading the most when it's coming up.

 

I think the light-hearted attitude doesn't really work here, but any other way would be out of character, it's tricky. I think his tale-telling about Maidens Kiss, also helped me initially dismiss it.

 

 

EDIT to add: The way Mat thinks about the incident afterwards is complicated because it's tied in with the guilt he feels over her death.

Edited by BFG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The very first instance is undoubtedly rape. He had sex without giving his consent. What happens after that is more up for discussion, but you cannot deny that his ability to consent was removed from him in the first instance. He tried to forcefully reject her and was overpowered by her knife.

 

It is also possible for a person to be raped, find that they enjoy the lack of control and continue to enjoy that in safer situations. That doesn't mean that the first instance wasn't rape.

 

Also: "I might buy that if there wasn't plenty of actual rape in the series to be dealt with head-on." Mat's experience is the most onscreen sexual assault and the only one to have any real resolution to it. Morgase is the next most direct and she nearly jumps out a window because of it. All the others are extremely oblique references, nothing head on at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@jjp

 

The only one ignoring things here is you. You're ignoring that it was written as a "discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones". You're ignoring what actually happens in the text. You're ignoring how the Ebou Dari thought it was wrong. You're ignoring all the sub text around it and your only counter is essentially "well its "Mat". It would be rape if it was anyone else". That doesn't help your cause much.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Harriet thought it addressed "rape and harrassment" (quite an amalgamation) with "comic undertones."

She's entitled to her opinion, of course. Who knew rape could be so funny!!

I still don't see how Tylin can honestly truly theaten his life to the degree you'd have to assume. Honestly, the guy kills Grey Men before they strike. You have to explain how Tylin can do something that they or any of the other incredibly skilled and deadly people he's encountered couldn't.

Then, reflect on his amorous past, fond memories of her and general theme of pretending to be reluctant about something he's about to do, and it completely fits his character.

I laughed the same way I laugh when he swears he's not going to fight and then rationalizes jumping into the fight.

"Oh, she has a knife! Oh... okay, I'll do it for the lads!!!"

Mat has inhibitions about harming women, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The similar situation was happened to Lan. His relation to Edeyn in New Spring could also be considered as a rape. While he enjoyed the physical aspect of the relation, he was disgusted by it emotionally, and we can see the power play interaction between the two of them clearly. I was, and still am, disgusted reading that scene.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

I'd feel differently not only if the genders were reversed but if it were almost anyone but Mat, who can take down Galad, Gawyn, Aiel, etc in a fight.

 

GRAY MEN don't make it past Mat Cauthon and she gets the drop on him and he's helpless? Something is definitely missing there.

 

If there is an RJ quote that explains it I'd love to read it.

A few things. One, she literally had a knife pressed up against his chin. It's a hard position to escape from. Two, she's the Queen of the country where the people he's promised to escort are staying. Yes, Mat is more than capable of escaping, or hurting her. What he's not capable of doing is breaking the promise that he gave to escort Elayne to Andor. If he rocks the boat with Tylin he's going to have to run away to avoid being executed or thrown in prison. Any of those things will cause him to break his promise. Thus, he's stuck. It's simply not a matter of physical capability.

So you agree that he wasn't forced physically because he could obviously escape, but it was rape because he didn't want to offend her and jeopardize his promise???

 

"Oh okay, I'll do it FOR ELAYNE!!!"

 

Imagine Elayne's reaction to that sentiment for a moment. Exactly.

 

So in your mind it's only rape if you're physically coerced into it with no possible chance of escape?  That's not even remotely sound logic.

 

Also, we got Elayne's reaction.  She thought it was funny.  Elayne however, is a horrible horrible person as has been displayed over and over throughout the series.

 

Also, stockholm syndrome is a very real thing.   I'm not sure how this forum feels about linking external sites, but just Google it.

Edited by Aleator77

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, we got Elayne's reaction.  She thought it was funny.  Elayne however, is a horrible horrible person as has been displayed over and over throughout the series.

Ok you were clipping along making all sorts of sense until you went off the rails here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I agree with Sutt and the others, that the Tylin incident was rape, the first time I read it, it did seem fairly lighthearted, mostly because of the writing style, and the fact that it's Mat, who takes everything light-hearted.

 

It was only when I thought about it, that I started to see the similarities between dismissing it as 'it's only Mat and he's a skirt-chaser' and the attitude that 'girls ask for it if they wear heels and short skirts'. It's now one of the things I dread reading the most when it's coming up.

 

I think the light-hearted attitude doesn't really work here, but any other way would be out of character, it's tricky. I think his tale-telling about Maidens Kiss, also helped me initially dismiss it.

 

 

EDIT to add: The way Mat thinks about the incident afterwards is complicated because it's tied in with the guilt he feels over her death.

 

Exactly. As presented it looked nothing like he was being RAPED. It's only once you start to read things into it that aren't there

 

It is indeed "complicated" because he doesn't even think back on it as rape. All Brandon had to do - knowing full well what the debate entailed and how this would be scrutinized - was say something like "It was a time Mat would rather not dwell on, his regret for Tylin's death only surpassed by his shame and anger at what she had done to him." But that's not what happened, he looked back whistfully....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The very first instance is undoubtedly rape. He had sex without giving his consent. What happens after that is more up for discussion, but you cannot deny that his ability to consent was removed from him in the first instance. He tried to forcefully reject her and was overpowered by her knife.

 

It is also possible for a person to be raped, find that they enjoy the lack of control and continue to enjoy that in safer situations. That doesn't mean that the first instance wasn't rape.

 

Also: "I might buy that if there wasn't plenty of actual rape in the series to be dealt with head-on." Mat's experience is the most onscreen sexual assault and the only one to have any real resolution to it. Morgase is the next most direct and she nearly jumps out a window because of it. All the others are extremely oblique references, nothing head on at all.

 

So a Gray Man can't kill Mat, but Tylin can use a knife to make Mat do all sorts of terrible things he doesn't want. That makes total sense. Maybe if Gawyn and Galad had taken fighting lessons from Tylin they could have beat Mat in a duel.

 

Shadar Haran raped Moghedian and Graendal.

 

Morgase's situation reflects the reality of rape. Mat's cheapens the word.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@jjp

 

The only one ignoring things here is you. You're ignoring that it was written as a "discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones". You're ignoring what actually happens in the text. You're ignoring how the Ebou Dari thought it was wrong. You're ignoring all the sub text around it and your only counter is essentially "well its "Mat". It would be rape if it was anyone else". That doesn't help your cause much.

 

I'm rejecting the notion that you can discuss rape "with comic undertones" without completely compromising the discussion, as is evidenced by this years-long debate. That's Harriet's take and she's wrong, she's been wrong about plenty of other things too. If RJ himself said he wanted to write Mat being raped, I'd say he should have done a better job.

 

Would it have been rape if Roedran threatened Birgette with a knife and she said "Oh well okay..." No, she would have snapped his arm in half.

 

We can agree that Mat was manipulated into a situation he did not want to be in, but the choice was ultimately his to not leave. If anything, all we're saying is that Mat has bad boundaries. Not that he was denied the choice to leave the situation. He is a grown man, not a frail girl being manipulated psychologically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Also, we got Elayne's reaction.  She thought it was funny.  Elayne however, is a horrible horrible person as has been displayed over and over throughout the series.

Ok you were clipping along making all sorts of sense until you went off the rails here.

 

If you are going to argue that Elayne thinks rape is funny, then of course she's a horrible person.

 

Since I don't think that's what she was laughing at, I'm not forced to see her this way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

W He is a grown man, not a frail girl being manipulated psychologically.

Leaving aside the terrible logic here let's just look at this statement. Wow...don't even know where to begin. Please educate yourself on the topic. You've gone past having a dense argument to a borderline offensive one.

 

I do agree with you in one respect however. This was a huge miss for RJ. It was not handled well.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I can remember, Tylin had sex with Mat more than once (though I may be wrong. If it is wrong, you can ignore my point). He may have looked back on his time fondly afterwards, but I'm sure as all hell he doesn't like to be reminded of the first time. You know, when she held him at knife point. That one was definitely rape. As time progressed he seemed to have developed a little bit of Stockholm Syndrome and it probably evolved away from rape, and perhaps he began to enjoy it. But not the first time. The first time was definitely rape, and I don't see him looking back fondly at that, but rather his "time" with Tylin. There was plenty time he was being chased and coddled (and I hope, for the sake of my point, more sex) that he could choose to remember over the time he was raped. 

 

Obviously, feel free to discard my point if there is a lack of evidence to it. I can't remember fairly well, but I just always assumed they had sex more than once and those times were what he looked back on fondly, rather than the first time. *shrug*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Also, we got Elayne's reaction.  She thought it was funny.  Elayne however, is a horrible horrible person as has been displayed over and over throughout the series.

Ok you were clipping along making all sorts of sense until you went off the rails here.

 

Just my personal opinion.  She went from my favorite character in the early books to my least favorite once she assumed power.  That's a topic for a different thread though.

 

To the topic at hand...here's what Mat tells Elayne.

 

Me force my attentions on her!” he shouted. Or rather, he tried to shout; choking made it come out in a wheeze.

Seizing Elayne’s shoulders, he pulled her away from the carriages a little distance. […] “You listen to me! That woman won’t take no for an answer; I say no, and she laughs at me. She’s starved me, bullied me, chased me down like a stag! She has more hands than any six women I ever met. She threatened to have the serving women undress me if I didn’t let her—” Abruptly, what he was saying hit him. And who he was saying it to. He managed to close his mouth before he swallowed a fly. He became very interested in one of the dark metal ravens inlaid in the haft of the ashandarei, so he would not have to meet her eyes. “What I mean to say is, you don’t understand,” he muttered. “You have it all backwards.”

 

 

She of course responds as all good friends do when you tell them you've been raped.  With jokes and laughter.  

 

 

Also, you seem to think that just because Mat can see a Gray man that he is somehow completely invincible against a Queen and all of her subjects, whom he also has an obligation to respect.  Once again, Mat has obligations to remain in Ebou Dar.  He literally can not leave the palace without breaking his promise to Rand...which we know he will not do.   It may seem silly to you, but putting himself in bad situations because of a promise to protect a woman is perfectly in character for Mat.  Also remember that this was Jordan's Mat rather than Sanderson's.  While Mat was certainly capable and extremely lucky under Jordan...he was not the super hero that Sanderson turned him into.  

Edited by Aleator77

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree with you however. This was a huge miss for RJ. It was not handled well.

 

That's the best place to leave it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Also, we got Elayne's reaction.  She thought it was funny.  Elayne however, is a horrible horrible person as has been displayed over and over throughout the series.

Ok you were clipping along making all sorts of sense until you went off the rails here.

 

Just my personal opinion.  She went from my favorite character in the early books to my least favorite once she assumed power.  That's a topic for a different thread though.

 

To the topic at hand...here's what Mat tells Elayne.

 

Me force my attentions on her!” he shouted. Or rather, he tried to shout; choking made it come out in a wheeze.

Seizing Elayne’s shoulders, he pulled her away from the carriages a little distance. […] “You listen to me! That woman won’t take no for an answer; I say no, and she laughs at me. She’s starved me, bullied me, chased me down like a stag! She has more hands than any six women I ever met. She threatened to have the serving women undress me if I didn’t let her—” Abruptly, what he was saying hit him. And who he was saying it to. He managed to close his mouth before he swallowed a fly. He became very interested in one of the dark metal ravens inlaid in the haft of the ashandarei, so he would not have to meet her eyes. “What I mean to say is, you don’t understand,” he muttered. “You have it all backwards.”

 

 

She of course responds as all good friends do when you tell them you've been raped.  With jokes and laughter.  

 

 

Also, you seem to think that just because Mat can see a Gray man that he is somehow completely invincible against a Queen and all of her subjects, whom he also has an obligation to respect.  Once again, Mat has obligations to remain in Ebou Dar.  He literally can not leave the palace without breaking his promise to Rand...which we know he will not do.   It may seem silly to you, but putting himself in bad situations because of a promise to protect a woman is perfectly in character for Mat.  Also remember that this was Jordan's Mat rather than Sanderson's.  While Mat was certainly capable and extremely lucky under Jordan...he was not the super hero that Sanderson turned him into.  

 

No, the Gray Man argument is that she wouldn't be able to spring a knife on him and force him to do anything if he was trying to stop it from happening.

 

I'm reading a lot now that it wasn't so much that he was forced physically, but that he felt he "had" to in order to meet x obligation.

 

Bottom line is he could have disarmed her and fled, and let Rand know that the Queen was trying to bang him and he had to leave or else it would have started a war. Then he and Rand could have decided if that was the right decision or not.

 

But it was a *decision*. In a rape, there are no decisions.

 

To justify his reflecting on it after the fact as Stockholm Syndrome is just twisting things even worse to fit a preconceived scenario, and implicates Brandon in the terrible handling of this situation along with RJ. At best, all you can say is "Well he was raped at first but afterwards he started to like it." And if that's the road we're going down, I'll hop off now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bottom line is he could have disarmed her and fled, and let Rand know that the Queen was trying to bang him and he had to leave or else it would have started a war. Then he and Rand could have decided if that was the right decision or not.

 

But it was a *decision*. In a rape, there are no decisions.

Bottom line he tried. There is not even room for interpretation here, it's totally cut and dry. Let's look at the scene one last time.

 

ACoS

It was too much. The woman hounded him, tried to starve him; now she locked them in together like... like he did not know what. Lambkin! Those bloody dice were bouncing around in his skull. Besides, he had important business to see to. The dice had never had anything to do with finding something, but... He reached her in two long strides, seized her arm, and began fumbling in her belt for the keys. "I don’t have bloody time for -" His breath froze as the sharp point of her dagger beneath his chin shut his mouth and drove him right up onto his toes.

 

"Remove your hand," she said coldly. He managed to look down his nose at her face. She was not smiling now. He let go of her arm carefully. She did not lessen the pressure of her blade, though. She shook her head. "Tsk, tsk. I do try to make allowances for you being an outlander, gosling, but since you wish to play roughly... Hands at your sides. Move." The knifepoint gave a direction. He shuffled backward on tiptoe rather than have his neck sliced.

 

"What are you going to do?" he mumbled through his teeth. A stretched neck put a strain in his voice. A stretched neck among other things. "Well?" He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands. "What are you going to do?" Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question. That, and the one he asked her. If she intended to kill him, a shove of her wrist right there would drive the dagger straight up into his brain. "Will you answer me!" That was not panic in his voice. He was not in a panic. It was too much.

 

Don't really get why you are ignoring what was so plainly written. This is not in any way a case of "Mat being Mat". He was locked in his room, he was denied food, he tried to leave and he clearly isn't sure he is fast enough to disarm her and wasn't sure of her intentions. He flat out asks if she intends to kill him, Tylin doesn't answer and he goes into a panic. There was no decision in the above passage and the only Matism is denying he was in a panic, which shows us quite clearly that he was.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why did you stop the quote there?

 

She's definitely kinky and that was an assault with a knife, but they had clothes on when the quote ended. Get to where sex happens.

Edited by jjp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Continue? Sure why not...

 

   ACoS

Tylin did not answer, only kept him tiptoeing backward, until suddenly his shoulders bumped against something that stopped him. With that flaming dagger never easing a hair, he could not move his head, but eyes that had been focused on her face darted. They were in the bedchamber, a flower-carved red bedpost hard between his shoulder blades. Why would she bring him...? His face was suddenly as crimson as the bedpost. No. She could not mean to... It was not decent! It was not possible!

So Mat was panicked about her possibly killing him and forcing him to have sex at knife point. He didn't think what was happening was possible. Again, there was no decision made and this is as cut and dry as it gets.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...