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Mat's Arc (Full Spoilers)

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It's a good FAQ except it's wrong about there being no support for Mat being Aemon himself.

The memory sequence Mat has upon waking from his healing at the Tower (something the FAQ doesn't go into enough detail on) pretty much leaves almost no other conclusion to be made.

It's at the right time at the exact right place of a man who is in command of not only the Heart Guard but also the Manetheren army itself.

Indeed, we also have comments from Brandon confirming it's either a connection from his bloodline or that he's Aemon reborn.

 

Yep, and for those that don't know of this conversation...

 

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson (6 January 2011)

At the 35% mark we have Mat speaking the Old Tongue for the first time, books ahead of him getting memories stuck in his head.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I've always found this a very curious event. Of the five Two Riversers, Mat's powers are the most subtly foreshadowed in the book.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Unless you count the short exchange between Lan and Perrin about wolves in a much earlier chapter.

KRIT PETTY

I thought that Mat's Old Tongue was a small way of RJ letting you think maybe Mat was the important one, not Rand.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, I think you're right on that count. It was certainly meant to make us think.

LEE DAVIS

The speaking the Old Tongue is from his bloodline though, not his memories in that case, isn't it?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but it's still foreshadowing. He's the one who does it, not the others.

SLEEPINGHOUR

In The Eye of the World, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?

TEREZ

Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?

FELIX PAX

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

BRANDON SANDERSON

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

 

 

So while BS doesn't confirm that Mat is Aemon reborn, he does confirm that the memory in question, is indeed Aemon.

That leaves us with 2 choices. Mat is either Aemon reborn or he is a direct blood descendent. (Or both I guess, if you want to get technical)

Knowing what we know of "The Son of Battles/Gambler" (Aemon was also known as a notorious gambler) the former (or both) seems the more likely to me.

Edited by Finnssss

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I am also disappointed we never learn more about Mat's memories.  I don't mean the ones the Finns gave him, I mean the ones he had before them (e.g., when he screams "Carai an Caldazar" as he throws himself into battle in tEotW). 

It's a pretty good bet that Mat is Aemon reborn, but I don't like hearing "No, you're not a hero of the horn" and getting no follow-up on this. 

 

i have never thought that it could be different memories ... for me , the Finns just gave him access to his old memories ( from previous lifes ) , they didn't create anything ...

 

that's why his memories are always those of a Manetheren's soldier and that's why one hero of the horn thinks that Mat is the oldest one on the battlefield ...

 

due to this , i don't think that he is Aemon reborn as he was fighting side by side with Aemon in one of his old memories ...

 

and for the last question , Mat is the hornsounder and i think that as a hero ( the gambler ) , he is always supposed to be alive when the horn is sounded ... so as he obviously can't be dead and alive at the same time , he can't be a hero of the horn ...

That is a good point.  I suppose if Mat is the Hornblower (provided he is anymore, since that seems to have fallen to Olver), it would be hard for him to actually be a "Hero of the Horn," per se.  Of course, it was never established that "Hornblower" is a title linked to one individual... well, after they blow it obviously, but it doesn't seem to be the case that it's always the same soul that blows the horn, since Olver and Mat were both Hornsounders.

 

I have always thought there was a strong likelyhood that Mat was Aemon reborn... everything in the books (particularly the first three) seemed to be pointing towards that fact.  I even remember there being speculation that he'd marry someone who could channel because Aemon had as well, despite similar misgivings about channelers.  Tuon doesn't channel exactly, but she is capable of learning.  Plus, the Red Eagle of Manatheren was in his viewings that Min saw, and not Perrin's, even though Perrin is ultimately the one that would use the banner of Manatheren.

 

I don't particularly remember the part where he is fighting beside Aemon in an old memory, but even if that's the case, the memories that were shoved into his head (if you're talking about those memories and not a pre-stuffing flashback) come from other men's lives... it doesn't ever establish that they were all past lives of Mat.  

 

I like Mat.  He's been my favorite character since book 3.  I just had to say that, since this is his arc page.  I always felt that he was perhaps RJ's favorite too, by the way he was portrayed, but of course RJ would like all his characters in their own way.  Could be my own bias talking, but still...  :wink:

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It seems strange to me that people can see Tuon as cold, given that she has been raised, since birth, to keep in mind her ultimate responsibility to nation that she is responsible for. To that end, she has been taught to utilize the people of her nation and to eliminate threats to herself, and by extension, the empire. She's not unfeeling when she places the greater good of the empire before her personal goals and aspirations, before she becomes the Empress. Once Empress, her primary concern is the safety of her people and the integrity of her government, and her personal desires must be weighed upon her judgement, honed by years of training, as to what is best for her nation. It's not cold as merely behaving rationally in the face of her responsibilties that lie heavier than a mountain.

 

For those who question why Mat would fall in love with her, I would ask, "Would you like a spouse who is simply reassuring and loves you, or would you like a spirited companion through life who would keep you on your toes with provoking thoughts and ideas that challenge your concept of what should be? How much fun would that be?"

 

I would suggest, perhaps wrongly, that this is also what draws Tuon to agree to marriage on the wagon trip from Ebou Dar. Throughout that section of the series, I was always interested in what new ways both Matrim and Tuon would endevour to tweak and challenge each other on the long ride with the circus.

 

Perrin, by contrast, was a bit painful on prior readthroughs, although I enjoyed the dynamic between Faile and Perrin.

 

edited: due to typos

Edited by Trolloc

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I'm a little disappointed that we didn't get more reaction POV's from different characters upon learning of Mat's elevation to overall Battle Commander, FOL (Forces of Light). I know Uno initially expressed skepticism until Polov Heights was shellacked by Demandred while Elayne kind of sighs and hopes that the Creator is indeed protecting them despite Mat's very unconventional leadership style. It would have been amusing to have read reactions from characters that had less than favorable interactions with Mat. Just imagine the following hypothetical dialogue:

 

Urien (of the Two Spires sept, Reyn Aiel): Matrim Cauthon, an excellent battle leader for a wetlander; better than their Great Captains. Do not try to dice with him however; I lost most of my share from the Stone of Tear gambling against him. He is totally clueless about the Maidens of Spear though, who would be dumb enough to ask them to play Maiden's Kiss?

 

Saal (from The Woman of Tanchico, Tar Valon): Matrim Cauthon, that was his name? He's the top general now! He tried to eat everything in our larder during his single visit and then he left with our drunken, semi-resident Gleeman.

 

Mada: (grins at sister) you should have complimented him more on his eyes and he might have stayed...

 

Basel Gill: I remember the rascal; first visit to the Queen's Blessing he was paranoid, the next he was talking about taking on the most powerful man in Caemlyn. He left me a purse with ten crowns am I supposed to return it?

 

Mother Guenna (Wise Woman, Tear): A bold and reckless young man, blasted his way into the Stone and rescued his friends; despite Aiel, Defenders, Black Ajah and Forsaken. I reckon directing Tarmon Gai'don will be just the thing to keep him out of trouble; he should have married a good Tairen girl from the Maule though...

 

Joline Sedai: Matrim Cauthon, No, it doesn't surprise me that he was chosen Supreme Commander for the Last Battle. He helped me and two other Aes Sedai escape Ebou Dar after the Seanchan invaded. Against all odds, he managed to dodge Seanchan patrols, Darkfriends, Bubbles of Evil, and a village of nocturnal homicidal maniacs that resurrected daily. I tried to convince him that it was in his best interest to allow me to bond him as a Warder but he stubbornly refused.

 

Bode Cauthon: If one more Novice asks me if the famous "Lord" Cauthon is really my brother (makes choking motion with her hands), she'll regret ever coming to the White Tower!

 

Abel Cauthon: That's my boy! I always knew he had more to offer besides that idiotic grin...

 

Natti Cauthon: (smirks at husband and then has an uncontrollable fit of laughter)

 

Cenn Buie: Battle Commander over all forces of the Light? May the Creator have mercy and protect us! Have all the Monarchs and Bran's daughter completely lost their minds? Why that young scoundrel once set fire to my whole supply of thatch that I had drying for the winter and then had the nerve to blame it on my cow knocking over the lantern...

 

Wit Congar: Oh! that's barely a trifle compared to the time Matrim snuck into my sheep yard and put bright purple dye into the dipping trough. I didn't notice it until my entire flock had been dipped. It was a disaster I tell you, my sheep actually glowed in the moonlight! It was so bad that it would have caused even a Tinker to break down and cry!

 

Upon hearing Cenn and Wit talking, many nearby Emond's Fielders recited their favorite Mat Cauthon pranks. They were still reminiscing several hours later when Tam al'Thor noticed the large gathering that included almost everyone in Emond's Field.

 

Tam al'Thor: Break this up and go back to work! There'll be plenty more humorous Mat Cauthon stories in the Fourth Age...

 




 

Edited by Cuendillar-88!

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It seems strange to me that people can see Tuon as cold, given that she has been raised, since birth, to keep in mind her ultimate responsibility to nation that she is responsible for. To that end, she has been taught to utilize the people of her nation and to eliminate threats to herself, and by extension, the empire. She's not unfeeling when she places the greater good of the empire before her personal goals and aspirations, before she becomes the Empress. Once Empress, her primary concern is the safety of her people and the integrity of her government, and her personal desires must be weighed upon her judgement, honed by years of training, as to what is best for her nation. It's not cold as merely behaving rationally in the face of her responsibilties that lie heavier than a mountain.

 

For those who question why Mat would fall in love with her, I would ask, "Would you like a spouse who is simply reassuring and loves you, or would you like a spirited companion through life who would keep you on your toes with provoking thoughts and ideas that challenge your concept of what should be? How much fun would that be?"

 

I would suggest, perhaps wrongly, that this is also what draws Tuon to agree to marriage on the wagon trip from Ebou Dar. Throughout that section of the series, I was always interested in what new ways both Matrim and Tuon would endevour to tweak and challenge each other on the long ride with the circus.

 

Perrin, by contrast, was a bit painful on prior readthroughs, although I enjoyed the dynamic between Faile and Perrin.

 

edited: due to typos

I think Tuon for the most part was great, sure like most the characters she had a moment here or there that didn't make total sense.  For me is was alway the looking for signs such as ants crawling but then when anyone else said anything about ta'vern or something she would call them superstious and think its so dumb.  But as for her, yes she is a tyrant, her authority is unquestioned and folks forget she is still young and inexperienced. 

 

I wonder if someone some day will get Mats memories stuffed in their head.

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Plus, the Red Eagle of Manatheren was in his viewings that Min saw, and not Perrin's, even though Perrin is ultimately the one that would use the banner of Manatheren.

 

The viewing was just of a "red eagle".  I took this to mean that Mat was just of Manatheren blood, not that he was connected to the Red Eagle of Manatheren.  I will concede that it could be that Min saw the Red Eagle of Manatheran, but just relayed it as a "red eagle" due to her not knowing the history.

 

Also, remember that Mat didn't form the Band of the Red Hand.  His men formed the Band and selected the banner.  Mat didn't have any direct input on it.  Am I remembering that correctly?

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you know, Min's viewings are always about the future,  and not all of them happened( for example most of her viewings in the last book), and as we can see if a white lily means assassination attempt, then it is possible that the red eagle refers to something that is yet to come and has nothing to do with Manatheren.

 

I don't 100% believe it myself, but I thought it's worth pointing it out.

 

 

 

Also, remember that Mat didn't form the Band of the Red Hand.  His men formed the Band and selected the banner.  Mat didn't have any direct input on it.  Am I remembering that correctly?

 

so he told Moiraine ,but he did sound suspicious.

Edited by hime

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I am also disappointed we never learn more about Mat's memories.  I don't mean the ones the Finns gave him, I mean the ones he had before them (e.g., when he screams "Carai an Caldazar" as he throws himself into battle in tEotW). 

It's a pretty good bet that Mat is Aemon reborn, but I don't like hearing "No, you're not a hero of the horn" and getting no follow-up on this. 

 

i have never thought that it could be different memories ... for me , the Finns just gave him access to his old memories ( from previous lifes ) , they didn't create anything ...

 

that's why his memories are always those of a Manetheren's soldier and that's why one hero of the horn thinks that Mat is the oldest one on the battlefield ...

Wrong and wrong. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/77

what that FAQ does not adress is what mat is screaming when they are breaking the bond of the dagger.  I also thought Mat was a Horn Hero, because he is a "character" like how Hawkwing calls him gambler, it seems like a role being played IE hero of the Horn.  But what do i know

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Plus, the Red Eagle of Manatheren was in his viewings that Min saw, and not Perrin's, even though Perrin is ultimately the one that would use the banner of Manatheren.

 

The viewing was just of a "red eagle".  I took this to mean that Mat was just of Manatheren blood, not that he was connected to the Red Eagle of Manatheren.  I will concede that it could be that Min saw the Red Eagle of Manatheran, but just relayed it as a "red eagle" due to her not knowing the history.

 

Also, remember that Mat didn't form the Band of the Red Hand.  His men formed the Band and selected the banner.  Mat didn't have any direct input on it.  Am I remembering that correctly?

That was the first book. Up until Dragon Reborn, Jordan still hadn't made up is mind about everything - there are some inconsistencies between the early books and the rest, and I can fully believe RJ intended to have the Mat-Manatheren play a different role than what we ended up with - there's a lot of early focus on Mat's Manatheren blood there. People change their mind, it happens. 

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Plus, the Red Eagle of Manatheren was in his viewings that Min saw, and not Perrin's, even though Perrin is ultimately the one that would use the banner of Manatheren.

 

The viewing was just of a "red eagle".  I took this to mean that Mat was just of Manatheren blood, not that he was connected to the Red Eagle of Manatheren.  I will concede that it could be that Min saw the Red Eagle of Manatheran, but just relayed it as a "red eagle" due to her not knowing the history.

 

Also, remember that Mat didn't form the Band of the Red Hand.  His men formed the Band and selected the banner.  Mat didn't have any direct input on it.  Am I remembering that correctly?

 

His men selected both the name and the banner but it was from Mat's drunken stories that the idea came from.

Edited by Finnssss

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There is ONE thing, and only one thing about Mat that I really wished was answered in the last 3 books which was not.

 

:mat:

 

What is up with Mat's hat? Why did he like it so much and have to have that hat, other than the fact it "was a bloody good hat."

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Brandon Sanderson had another character attached to his hat in one of his books, maybe there is a connection there somewhere.

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Hmmm... I think this is supposed to be a thread about Mat's Arc, not the endless bitching about Sanderson (who in my opinion took an impossible task on and did an AWESOME job.  Not perfect, but AWESOME).

 

Anyway, I had a question for those theory minded...

 

When Mat is talking regarding how he died on the tree to escape his bond from the horn, and he is told that his death "wasn't on the tree" but something else... what was that all about?  I don't think this was ever explained.

 

Also, the Hinderstrap plot line in the battle was AWESOME.

 

 

 

Hmmm... I think this is supposed to be a thread about Mat's Arc, not the endless bitching about Sanderson (who in my opinion took an impossible task on and did an AWESOME job.  Not perfect, but AWESOME).

 

Anyway, I had a question for those theory minded...

 

When Mat is talking regarding how he died on the tree to escape his bond from the horn, and he is told that his death "wasn't on the tree" but something else... what was that all about?  I don't think this was ever explained.

 

Also, the Hinderstrap plot line in the battle was AWESOME.

The death occurred when they went to kill Ravin and then Math and Avi both were killed by lightning, but Rand ended up balefiring them back to life.

I posted in another thread about this. We KNOW that his hanging wasnt it. And dieing to Rahvin, according to RJs laws CANNOT count. rand Balefired rahvin. He did it with enough strength that everyone was alive again. Now what do we know about how Balefire works? It basically ERASES from the pattern the actions of the victim of the balefire. How long back in time depends on how strong you are.

 

One minute Mat is Dead. Balefire. Mat is alive. Rands balefire ERASED Rahvins action that killed Mat!  This continuity error was HUGE now that i think of it in AMOL. Dreadlords were throwing balefire everywhere yet we never saw a scene where it says,

 

 

"the soldier killed a trolloc but was then consumed by balefire. he died, truly before he even knew it and the trolloc suddenly came to life spitting another soldier on its spear"

 

 

 

My problems with Mats arc are that he just gave in to Tuon. thats not mat! and by gave in i mean he accepted his assimilation into the Seanchan people. there was a little battle of it but not much.

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Hmmm... I think this is supposed to be a thread about Mat's Arc, not the endless bitching about Sanderson (who in my opinion took an impossible task on and did an AWESOME job.  Not perfect, but AWESOME).

 

Anyway, I had a question for those theory minded...

 

When Mat is talking regarding how he died on the tree to escape his bond from the horn, and he is told that his death "wasn't on the tree" but something else... what was that all about?  I don't think this was ever explained.

 

Also, the Hinderstrap plot line in the battle was AWESOME.

 

 

Hmmm... I think this is supposed to be a thread about Mat's Arc, not the endless bitching about Sanderson (who in my opinion took an impossible task on and did an AWESOME job.  Not perfect, but AWESOME).

 

Anyway, I had a question for those theory minded...

 

When Mat is talking regarding how he died on the tree to escape his bond from the horn, and he is told that his death "wasn't on the tree" but something else... what was that all about?  I don't think this was ever explained.

 

Also, the Hinderstrap plot line in the battle was AWESOME.

The death occurred when they went to kill Ravin and then Math and Avi both were killed by lightning, but Rand ended up balefiring them back to life.

I posted in another thread about this. We KNOW that his hanging wasnt it. And dieing to Rahvin, according to RJs laws CANNOT count. rand Balefired rahvin. He did it with enough strength that everyone was alive again. Now what do we know about how Balefire works? It basically ERASES from the pattern the actions of the victim of the balefire. How long back in time depends on how strong you are.

 

One minute Mat is Dead. Balefire. Mat is alive. Rands balefire ERASED Rahvins action that killed Mat!  This continuity error was HUGE now that i think of it in AMOL. Dreadlords were throwing balefire everywhere yet we never saw a scene where it says,

 

 

"the soldier killed a trolloc but was then consumed by balefire. he died, truly before he even knew it and the trolloc suddenly came to life spitting another soldier on its spear"

 

 

 

My problems with Mats arc are that he just gave in to Tuon. thats not mat! and by gave in i mean he accepted his assimilation into the Seanchan people. there was a little battle of it but not much.

 

 

Dice, I believe that RJ confirmed that Rahvins balefire was the 'death' that fulfilled the 'die and live again a part of what was' Finns prophecy.  As such it is likely when the link was broken.  I'd prefer it to be the death by hanging, but apparantly not.

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and for the last question , Mat is the hornsounder and i think that as a hero ( the gambler ) , he is always supposed to be alive when the horn is sounded ... so as he obviously can't be dead and alive at the same time , he can't be a hero of the horn ...

That is a good point.  I suppose if Mat is the Hornblower (provided he is anymore, since that seems to have fallen to Olver), it would be hard for him to actually be a "Hero of the Horn," per se.  Of course, it was never established that "Hornblower" is a title linked to one individual... well, after they blow it obviously, but it doesn't seem to be the case that it's always the same soul that blows the horn, since Olver and Mat were both Hornsounders.

 

 

thanks but after re-reading the last chapters , i think it was a mistake ... all the ending arc is obviously about choice and free will ( Rand not killing the dark one , Egwene's rights to die , Lan shitting the sword , Perrin choosing to protect Rand instead of Fayle , Cadsuane's scene etc ... ) ...

 

so the fact that Mat is not a bloody hero of the horn makes much more sense if the explanation he gave us is the good one : he is not one because he don't want to be one ...

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My problems with Mats arc are that he just gave in to Tuon. thats not mat! and by gave in i mean he accepted his assimilation into the Seanchan people. there was a little battle of it but not much.

 

Really? Does the name Tylin, or Duckling ring a bell? How about pink ribbons, or wearing clothes to shame a Tinker?

Any of that sound familiar? :wink:

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Mat was great in this book, hes been my fave character all the way through, he was his same old self again when he took over the armies of light. His memories of ancient battles are what made him a great battle commander.

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Mat should have out-General-ed Demandred before he died. 

 

His plans ultimately came to nothing when Demandred died, and tactics went out the window. Many sacrifices were left seeming unnecessary. 

 

However, he did save everyone by keeping toe-to-toe with Demandred tactically. Demandred would have slaughtered them if not for Mat. 

 

Still, Mat's plans -specially sending the Seanchan away while everyone else died- were useless when Lan killed Demandred. Mat couldn't have predicted it, and he did the right thing, however, seeing it all go to waste in the end left a bitter taste in my mouth. 

I agree. If the seanchan would have been involved a lot earlier they would have been much more helpful. Seemed like after LAN killed Demandred the battle was already over. What happened with the whole cut scene of mogheden taking over for Demandred? Seemed like that got totally forgotten until the very. I think maybe that whole scene should have been edited out. A weak attempt to keep the battle going until the seanchan arrived

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and for the last question , Mat is the hornsounder and i think that as a hero ( the gambler ) , he is always supposed to be alive when the horn is sounded ... so as he obviously can't be dead and alive at the same time , he can't be a hero of the horn ...

That is a good point.  I suppose if Mat is the Hornblower (provided he is anymore, since that seems to have fallen to Olver), it would be hard for him to actually be a "Hero of the Horn," per se.  Of course, it was never established that "Hornblower" is a title linked to one individual... well, after they blow it obviously, but it doesn't seem to be the case that it's always the same soul that blows the horn, since Olver and Mat were both Hornsounders.

 

 

thanks but after re-reading the last chapters , i think it was a mistake ... all the ending arc is obviously about choice and free will ( Rand not killing the dark one , Egwene's rights to die , Lan shitting the sword , Perrin choosing to protect Rand instead of Fayle , Cadsuane's scene etc ... ) ...

 

so the fact that Mat is not a bloody hero of the horn makes much more sense if the explanation he gave us is the good one : he is not one because he don't want to be one ...

 

Lan did what?!?!?!!?!!?!!! I have no memory of this. That must be a sword form only known to a few blademasters.

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Mat DID ''out-general'' the forces of Team Dark. It was only through Mat constantly shifting his forces and diversionary tactics that many people were left alive at all to see the 4TH Age dawn...

 

 

Fish

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LOL!!! The things some folks will cling to!!!

 

Take my word...MAT IS NOT AEMON ''REBORN''!!!

 

Gee whiz!!!

 

 

Fish

 

Mat is either Aemon reborn, a direct blood relative of Aemon or both.

Those are the choices, the only choices.

 

There is no direct evidence that Mat is Aemon reborn but there is also no direct evidence ruling it out either.

My BELIEF (and many others) that he is in fact Aemon reborn is not over turned by your BELIEF that he isn't.

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There is no direct evidence that Mat is not Santa Claus reborn either, but based on my years and years of rereading tWoT, I know that it would be a pretty silly theory. I would never even choose to consider it even if my life depended on it.

 

As for ''no other choices''... I live in a world of infinite choices. I never consider ANYTHING to be impossible.

 

 

Fish

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