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Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

 

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

Not holding up the Seanchan...helping to move them away from slavery and fitting in with the rest of the continent. Also Min would be a important buffer between Cadsuanne and Tuon.

 

The whole thing with Min and Tuon was poorly done for me.  She jumped into that role way too easily.  She's not even going to ask "Uh, hey, is this for life?  Can I leave if I want to?"  I get that she was helping out, but it seemed to fit together way too neatly.  The Seanchan do not have a reputation for releasing the ties they make to people, as Mat warned her.  It seemed unnatural that she'd not be concerned about this. 

 

 

>>>Someone may have already said this, but I am assuming that the switch between Moridin and Rand happened before they left the cave and it was actually Moridin's body carrying out Rand's, but Rand was in Moridin.  It was emphasized that he couldn't see the body he was carrying, or see very well at all, and that is what the Aiel woman (Nakomi, I assume) is referring to over his body before he passes out about that being what he "needs to do" (i.e. the body switch).

 

A good theory, but I don't feel that we were really given enough info here to be able to do more than speculate.  Which is annoying, given the unprecedented nature of the event.

 

 

Regarding the timing of the body switch, I agree, there's probably not enough info to do more than speculate. Here are my thoughts: When Rand is carrying "the body" it says he is walking on "his blood." This hints that he was still in the wounded body the bled down and up the path.  Also it is strongly suggested that the cave collapses on at least part of him, which would have done more damage to the old body. It also doesn't mention that he feels an absence of wounds, which is the first thing he notices when he wakes up in the tent in the new body. Additionally in this scene (walking out of the cave) he notes that he asked the wrong question to the Aelfin--one question of which we know precisely was how to win the last battle and live himself. But the nature of his realization--that destroying the DO would have destroyed mankind's agency--indicates that the question he was referring to relates to saving the world. Still, it is not that far off to think that he also may have realized how to save his own life as well, but I think this is probably implausible given that he just blacked out after making the other realization.

 

Also, we know that at some point there was a decision among Rand, Avi, Min, & Elayne that his surviving would be kept a secret. This is implied by Avi's statement at the funeral pyre to the effect that they would work to keep the fact secret (she essentially confirms that she knows he will live, that the funeral pyre is a sham, and that they needed to keep these facts secret). We're given almost no indication of the reasoning behind this, but that there was a secret meeting cannot be doubted because Rand knew that Alivia had brought him a horse, money, and his sword upon waking up and it is revealed that he is in his new body. It is also suggested that Alivia used Nynaeve's ter'angreal to try and heal Rand's body (the more I think about this, the more I'm not sure it was Alivia, but maybe Nynaeve herself). It would be plausible for Rand or Moiraine or Nynaeve to have instructed the healer on how to make the body or soul switch as a method of healing. If it was Nynaeve that did the soul switch, it would also be a sort of fulfillment of her doing three miracles: healing stilling, cleansing the source, bringing someone back from the dead.  Actually I don't think it could have been Rand to instruct on the soul switch because he seemed genuinely surprised to find himself in Moridin's body at the end. Although, his first thought is to see a mirror, which suggest that he had prior knowledge of the switch. Also, the fact that Rand was surprised to be in Moridin's body--or at least experiencing it for the first time--but also not being surprised to know that Alivia dropped off the horse, gold, and sword, seems to indicate that the body switch happened after the decision to keep his death a secret was made--or at least after he emerged from the cave.

 

Finally, there is almost no suggestion that Rand did anything in his battle with the DO other than seize control of Moridin's power through Callandor that would have caused the body switch before he left the cave. I am not familiar with all the writings on Callandor to know whether it would be plausible to suggest that Callandor could have caused the switch, but there's no real suggestion of it that I picked up on in the final pages of aMoL. The last thing Rand did was remake the or reseal the bore and no hints on any body-switching that occurred at that time. On the other hand, it probably would have been very difficult (but not impossible) for Rand's old body with the missing hand to carry Moridin's body up to the cave entrance.

 

It's too bad we weren't given more detail on this. It would have been cool to know how and when it happened.  I think if there is going to be a hint of what happened, it will be in researching the effects of the ter'angreal that are mentioned in the epilogue that were used to "heal" Rand.

 

Edit: for clarity.

Edited by wackydavo

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Rand needed to disappear at the end to give the world a chance to grow without him. If he stayed, especially given the fact that he seems to possibly now have somewhat godlike powers, it would be impossible for him to avoid being a divisive element in the new world. People would fear him or worship him, and he is much better for them as a symbol of hope than as an actual near-god who walks among them.

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

Except Min can openly criticize Tuon and reason with her. And via Avi's glimpse into that other future, seeing how the Aiel seemed to have respected Tuon and engaged in negotiations concerning the captured Aiel WO, I would hardly think all hope is lost. The Seanchan are part of Randland's future and, damane or not, Min is far from a tool and will have a hand in shaping that future.

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

 

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

Not holding up the Seanchan...helping to move them away from slavery and fitting in with the rest of the continent. Also Min would be a important buffer between Cadsuanne and Tuon.

 

Is there a single indication that Tuon or the Seanchan are open to being moved away from slavery? The one best hope was demonstrating that the adam would work on damane, but Tuon waved that away as immaterial.  I mean, i'll go ahead and invoke Godwin here, half the war criminals at Nuremburg argued they were just trying to make things better from the inside. And why should Min think she'll have a lick of luck influencing anyway aside from reading auras and hence helping prop up the empire? If she starts lying or hedging her prophecies shes likely to get her throat slit, or worse. Min knows how her powers could be exploited, she's always avoided exactly this kind of position unless it was in the service of a great cause and/or someone she loves and respects. She's going to toss away the man she's head over heels in love with to aid an empire of slavers in the vague hopes of influencing them to do some good? Why? And why wouldn't we expect Rand or Perrin or Lan or any other hero to make their remaining lifes work the same?

I believe that there are strong indications that the Seanchan abandoning the practice would at least be plausible. One of the main sub-facts of intrigue about the Seanchan is the fact that the Sul'dam are channelers. Tuon also mentioned that her Damane and Sul'dam were essentially the foundation of her rule (being the main component of her military power) and she didn't want to imagine the chaos that would ensue if this power were taken from her--something to that effect. Other Seanchan have hinted at similar disaster. So, one big step in undermining the Seanchan's notions of Slavery would be to make it common knowledge that the Sul'dam were channelers.  Enough people knew this fact (including Tuon herself) that it is not hard to imagine how the word could be spread.

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

 

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

Not holding up the Seanchan...helping to move them away from slavery and fitting in with the rest of the continent. Also Min would be a important buffer between Cadsuanne and Tuon.

 

Is there a single indication that Tuon or the Seanchan are open to being moved away from slavery? The one best hope was demonstrating that the adam would work on damane, but Tuon waved that away as immaterial.  I mean, i'll go ahead and invoke Godwin here, half the war criminals at Nuremburg argued they were just trying to make things better from the inside. And why should Min think she'll have a lick of luck influencing anyway aside from reading auras and hence helping prop up the empire? If she starts lying or hedging her prophecies shes likely to get her throat slit, or worse. Min knows how her powers could be exploited, she's always avoided exactly this kind of position unless it was in the service of a great cause and/or someone she loves and respects. She's going to toss away the man she's head over heels in love with to aid an empire of slavers in the vague hopes of influencing them to do some good? Why? And why wouldn't we expect Rand or Perrin or Lan or any other hero to make their remaining lifes work the same?

I believe that there are strong indications that the Seanchan abandoning the practice would at least be plausible. One of the main sub-facts of intrigue about the Seanchan is the fact that the Sul'dam are channelers. Tuon also mentioned that her Damane and Sul'dam were essentially the foundation of her rule (being the main component of her military power) and she didn't want to imagine the chaos that would ensue if this power were taken from her--something to that effect. Other Seanchan have hinted at similar disaster. So, one big step in undermining the Seanchan's notions of Slavery would be to make it common knowledge that the Sul'dam were channelers.  Enough people knew this fact (including Tuon herself) that it is not hard to imagine how the word could be spread.

 

The thing that seems most likely to me is the suggestion that since Tuon is getting permission for people to voluntarily be collared and believes that everyone can be convinced this is right, she will also allow people who do NOT want to be collared to leave her lands. This seems likely considering one of the conversations, I forget which page. Combined with other societal pressures, the eventual spread of the knowledge that sul'dam can channel, and the continued influence of Mat and Min on Tuon, it seems likely to me that an eventual peaceful resolution to the damane issue could be reached.

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i found the whole rand tuon showdown problematic.

when rand met tuon,he desperately tried to accomplish two things,

to block a possibility of a two front war,and to make tuon sign the pax draconis papers.

i never liked the seanchan empire(to put it mildly),with its rigid class structure and slavery.

so instead of killing all the seanchans present(including tuon) and leave their empire

without leadership(a taste of darth rand),rand opted to make great concessions to

achieve his goals.

i can understand his reasonings,he chose the lesser of two evils,but i still don't like it.

after the last battle,the seanchans collar and kidnap moghedien(they have no idea who she is)

and it is a direct violation of the pax draconis papers.

rand left a festering wound in his land.

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so now that Rand can draw on this new True Source Power of interlaced saidar and saidin (p890/891 - and what he uses to light his pipe at the end), does he use this power to make his new self (morridin) look like his old self (Rand) before he hooks up with one of the 3 women? Otherwise it'd be kind of weird right? 

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Rand saved the world from the Dark One for another 3000 years.  He's done quite enough.  Everything else the nations have to face in the aftermath is pretty small potatoes.

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Its entirely possible, that the One Power in its self, coudl work in a similar way (through willing somethign to happen) and that 'weaving' is just the minds way of doing it.

They train themselves to use it in that manner. And rands millenia  of expereince within that timeless void fighting the darkone, gave him him the knowledge and experience to simply will things into existance using the true source. (much like Morodin had access to the true power, Rand has access to the True Source (as has been theorizes for the longest time) The true source, defined as..

"The One Power comes from the True Source, the driving force of creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time."

I was thinking this exact same thing.  I mean, think about it.  When someone with the spark reaches the right age, they seem able to bend the pattern a little.  Things happen that they need or want to happen.  So the way I see it, they are unconsciously willing the pattern to work for them, and no channeling at all is involved.  They are touching the source, but not channeling.  I think its an innate ability in every channeler, but no one ever learns how to truly control it, so they need channeling in order to direct it safely, but no one ever controls it fully.

 

Rand is the only exception.  He didn't realize it at first, as he tried to channel at first, but there at the end he figures it out.  The way I see it, strength in the power depends on the soul, and the Dragon Soul is the only one able to achieve complete control the True Source.  So while those who can channel manipulate the pattern in a very small way to make weaves and can manipulate with balefire and Cuinfire(What I call Eggy's weave), according to strength, Rand having this complete control of it makes him able work the pattern directly.  Hence why the Dragon is one with the land.  So the way I see it, what Rand can do now is completely natural as far the Pattern is concerned.  He's not some walking genius or avatar of the Creator or whatever, he's just a really powerful channeler who has achieved complete control and has risen above the need to channel.

 

So yeah, in all the ways that matter to humans, he's like a god, and potentially the greatest threat to the world as well, because theoretically, a full circle of 72 with every angreal and sa'angreal in the world would be no match because they still woujldn't have this complete control.  But to the pattern, he's just the most powerful thread, still small compared to the vastness of creation.

 

Also,  on an unrelated point brought up earlier, The Dragon has never gone to the shadow.  The Hero of the Light has gone to the shadow, but the Dragon never has.  RJ stated this, but I don't feel like looking it up.

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Thought- let's approach Rand' s new body via Occam's Razor. What' s the only practice of putting a recently dead soul into an existing body? Transmigration. Where is the only place this can happen? Shaol Ghul. Hence, the simplest answer is that Rand died and was transmigrated into the new body. How? By whom? Cant say, but that little visit from the mysterious Nakomi takes on an interesting cast.

Edited by mbuehner

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

Except Min can openly criticize Tuon and reason with her. And via Avi's glimpse into that other future, seeing how the Aiel seemed to have respected Tuon and engaged in negotiations concerning the captured Aiel WO, I would hardly think all hope is lost. The Seanchan are part of Randland's future and, damane or not, Min is far from a tool and will have a hand in shaping that future.

 

So is Shara, will she pop over there next to settle all the problems of the world? Min never took me as  as a cause head. Yeah Seanchan are a disaster, and maybe she can help. and maybe survive that lunatic court somehow. but why should she? she loves Rand like crazy. We dont expect the rest of our heroes to jump back in to solve all the worlds problems. Shes always followed Rand before, and she doesnt have hundreds of years left like the other two.

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^ Same here... Just wish RJ had written a bit more about the aftermath.. How the world is trying to recover and how each of our favourite characters plan about the future... Maybe a look 5-10 years down the line would have been really helpful... The ending was good no doubt, but after 13 books felt a bit abrupt

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I don't get how people reason in Rand now using the True Power? Wasn't the bore first done to get a chance to tap in to the (then) new power? And with the bore undone, wouldn't the True Power, the DOs essence, be unavailable?

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I don't get how people reason in Rand now using the True Power? Wasn't the bore first done to get a chance to tap in to the (then) new power? And with the bore undone, wouldn't the True Power, the DOs essence, be unavailable?

 

 

Not the True Power, the True Source.

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I always figured that Rand's lighting the pipe at the end was just him bending the pattern to his will, similar to the way he threatened to stop Cadsuane's heart in TGS.

 

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I always figured that Rand's lighting the pipe at the end was just him bending the pattern to his will, similar to the way he threatened to stop Cadsuane's heart in TGS.

 

I believe the same....though some of the places people are taking it seems to be a little over the top for me.  It's left ambiguous for a reason, but we've had quite a few hints before (Rand threatening to bend the pattern, Rand acting as the inverse of the dark one's taint, Rand making the land flourish clearly as an exertion of his will before Fortuna).

 

Interestingly, Rand refers to his own pipe as "wrong" - I wonder if that's a hint as to what he did.   

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Perhaps Rand can make some threads rearrange into plausible patterns, like what he was doing when outside of it. I wouldn't put him anywhere near the level of Creator, though.

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Interestingly, Rand refers to his own pipe as "wrong" - I wonder if that's a hint as to what he did.   

Unless I missed something, he refers to it as 'impossible', not 'wrong'. Which makes since, since lighting a pipe with the force of his will without channeling, would be, under the way the miscellaneous Powers work, impossible. One of the dreamers earlier in the series referred to the nine impossible things that the Dragon Reborn would do, this might simply be number nine. Just because it's 'impossible' doesn't mean it has to be spectacular and grandiose.

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.
Except Min can openly criticize Tuon and reason with her. And via Avi's glimpse into that other future, seeing how the Aiel seemed to have respected Tuon and engaged in negotiations concerning the captured Aiel WO, I would hardly think all hope is lost. The Seanchan are part of Randland's future and, damane or not, Min is far from a tool and will have a hand in shaping that future.

So is Shara, will she pop over there next to settle all the problems of the world? Min never took me as as a cause head. Yeah Seanchan are a disaster, and maybe she can help. and maybe survive that lunatic court somehow. but why should she? she loves Rand like crazy. We dont expect the rest of our heroes to jump back in to solve all the worlds problems. Shes always followed Rand before, and she doesnt have hundreds of years left like the other two.

You do realize the importance of Min's position right? It's the one Semirhage chose to occupy. And the second Min realized what it entails she put it to good use and helped win TG. Your point about Sahara hardly stands.

 

As for Min following Rand, yes she did that but that was when she thought he would die in a handful of years maybe less and was desperately lonely. But even then she didn't run to him when she thought she could be useful elsewhere, hence all the time she spent helping Siuan. Looking at her previous behavior in never denying AS her aid, even when her Rand was dying and needed her, there is no reason to believe she would abandon an important position in an empire that determines so much about WT's future. I see Cads and Min's relationship being integral in that regard.

 

Also your point about lifespan is just silly. Min now has her lifetime (60-80) years to spend with Rand. There is no rush. I don't see how Elayne or Avi's channeler lifespans have anything to do with this. Considering Rand's been burned out, I would think the latter would be more worried about the time they have with him, as it's a fraction of their lifetime and must seem more valuable for how limited it is.

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No saidin in the void is pretty conclusive, I would think.

He doesn't need to sense saidin when he can light a pipe with his thoughts. Rand has moved on with new talent/power for a new age.

 

"He wove something majestic, a pattern of interlaced saidar and saidin in their pure forms. Not Fire, not Spirit, not Water, not Earth, not Air. Purity. Light within itself...With this new form of the Power..."

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