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Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

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If the cycle isn't going to repeat for another 3000 years, it doesn't actually matter whose alive at the moment or what they do with the horn.  Even in this age they still had to find the horn.

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So, Rand can directly influence the pattern and does so to light his pipe.  It is almost like the Real Pattern can be controlled by him in the same way others can control Tel'aran'rhiod.  Here is my question...why doesn't he make it so he can channel again?  Or is he really happy with being unable to channel for the rest of his life?

 Since there is no real evidence to support anything, my feeling is he can only lightly affect the pattern. A sliver of remnants from his time holding the weaves of the pattern.

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Still don't think that a world with an absence of evil is as bad as any of the Dark One's options. Not buying it. Kill the Dark One, Rand. Just KILL HIM!

 

You're missing the point then.  The point isn't that there is no evil.  The point is that people have lost their free will because they don't have the option to choose anymore.

No, I don't think that killing the Dark One would have taken away the right for anyone to choose anything. Not having an outside entity actively pushing evil on the world isn't the same as removing people's capacity to do bad things. I think Rand had it wrong.

 

This is my thought also.  I'm thinking the DO was able to corrupt Rand's vision so that he had to reject the idea of killing the DO.

 

Pretty sure if he killed Shai'tan the wheel would break and time would be linear, but people would still have the free will to choose evil.. they just wouldn't have any outside boogy man influencing them.

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According to the theology of the series, at least as it is under Sanderson, killing the DO would have dire consequences for what I will call Free Will.

 

Why, in your opinion, is sealing the DO perfectly away from the Wheel(as Rand ended up doing) materially different, for those in the Wheel, than killing him would be?

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Because there's no other proof that killing the DO would affect free will other than the DO's personal statement to Rand during that fight.

 

And there's no point in believing that Rand sealed the DO away perfectly.. as Herid Fel stated, the bore has to be sealed so that it can be broken again in the future.

 

Killing the DO would have ended that perpetual cycle.

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According to the theology of the series, at least as it is under Sanderson, killing the DO would have dire consequences for what I will call Free Will.

 

Why, in your opinion, is sealing the DO perfectly away from the Wheel(as Rand ended up doing) materially different, for those in the Wheel, than killing him would be?

 

Because the DO is outside of the pattern but part of the whole.  He's the darkness in between the threads and all that.  Like Rand said the DO isn't the enemy.  It's a force of nature kind of.  Punching the bore allows the DO to corrupt the pattern but he does so because its his nature.  I can't think of any good analogies but think of it the DO as battery acid.  Battery acid allows the battery to have juice and can coexist.  You punch a hole in the battery and it's going to be leaking and become corrosive because that's just what it does. 

 

The Dark one does influence the pattern it's just when his containment is broken he corrupts the pattern.

Edited by Vermillion

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According to the theology of the series, at least as it is under Sanderson, killing the DO would have dire consequences for what I will call Free Will.

 

Why, in your opinion, is sealing the DO perfectly away from the Wheel(as Rand ended up doing) materially different, for those in the Wheel, than killing him would be?

 

Because the DO is outside of the pattern but part of the whole.  He's the darkness in between the threads and all that.  Like Rand said the DO isn't the enemy.  It's a force of nature kind of.  Punching the bore allows the DO to corrupt the pattern but he does so because its his nature.  I can't think of any good analogies but think of it the DO as battery acid.  Battery acid allows the battery to have juice and can coexist.  You punch a hole in the battery and it's going to be leaking and become corrosive because that's just what it does. 

 

The Dark one does influence the pattern it's just when his containment is broken he corrupts the pattern.

That's similiar to how I interpreted it. Would you then sa the DO is a tool to keep the Wheel running properly?

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Am I the only one who thought the fight with the DO was similar to Neil Gamin's Sandman comic? Dream goes to hell to recover one of his core objects of power and enters a battle of will with a demon.  They have to say what they are to try and counter eachother- going from creatures to ideas.  Dream wins by saying "I am hope."  There is of course, nothing that could dispell hope, not in the face of the horrors thus constructed in their contest, and surrounded by demons (Lucifer among then) who still hoped to be free of hell.

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According to the theology of the series, at least as it is under Sanderson, killing the DO would have dire consequences for what I will call Free Will.

 

Why, in your opinion, is sealing the DO perfectly away from the Wheel(as Rand ended up doing) materially different, for those in the Wheel, than killing him would be?

 

Because the DO is outside of the pattern but part of the whole.  He's the darkness in between the threads and all that.  Like Rand said the DO isn't the enemy.  It's a force of nature kind of.  Punching the bore allows the DO to corrupt the pattern but he does so because its his nature.  I can't think of any good analogies but think of it the DO as battery acid.  Battery acid allows the battery to have juice and can coexist.  You punch a hole in the battery and it's going to be leaking and become corrosive because that's just what it does. 

 

The Dark one does influence the pattern it's just when his containment is broken he corrupts the pattern.

That's similiar to how I interpreted it. Would you then sa the DO is a tool to keep the Wheel running properly?

 

The dark one is part of the pattern from what I can tell. Thus if you strip the dark one from the pattern you lose part of what makes the threads. So in a world without the DO the thread, the life and the existence are lacking like those who are turned evil have something removed from them.

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She is Padra, daughter of the Dragon Reborn and a Maiden. She and her three siblings, brothers Alarch and Janduin and sister Marinna, hold the One Power constantly and channeled since early childhood.5 Alarch has his looks from his wetlander side and has dark hair.6

This is what Aviendha seeing during her Rhuidean visit. Notice that her daughter has dark hair.... I think this shows that Rand does not actually abandon Elayne, Aviendha or Min or his kids.. This vision might not hold true now, but it comes really close to the future where Rand actually wins and the Dragon Peace is enacted. The only thing different in this future arc probably would be the Aiel future....

 

So I think Rand will roam around a bit but will constantly be in touch with his 3 lovers and his children.

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her. Consider her agreeing to go to the WT and later saving and traveling with Siuan, only to run off to Rand once she was reduced to Bryne's servant. And that was when she thought he was in desperate need of her affection/ friendship and dying in the near future. Besides, she could have Tuon's damane make her a gateway whenever she wants to see him.

 

The whole concept of any of the three following Rand bothers me. He's the one without a life and he's no longer close to death, so really he's the one who should go out of his way to find himself a place in their lives eventually. The open ending saved the book from some unsavory implications for me. I'd rather like to think Rand would be the one posing as a toy to Min/Elayne and wetlander gai'shan to Avi as opposed to women in powerful positions to rebuilt the 4th age and dropping everything to follow him like faithful puppies.

Edited by driedraspberry

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So, Rand can directly influence the pattern and does so to light his pipe.  It is almost like the Real Pattern can be controlled by him in the same way others can control Tel'aran'rhiod.  Here is my question...why doesn't he make it so he can channel again?  Or is he really happy with being unable to channel for the rest of his life?

 

Why would someone who can control the pattern want to channel?. If you have a computer why would you want a abacus?

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Rand vs The Dark One. This I'm sorry to say for me turned from being the most exciting, compelling part of the book, to being the most disappointing. Going into AMoL I wanted to believe that Rand's story was being told for a reason. I wanted an explanation as to why in this cyclical world, ruled by the Wheel of Time, where major events would ultimately repeat themselves, did Jordan decide to tell us Rand's tale? And oh boy did I think I was going to find my answer. Rand's bold statement of intent at the start of AMoL (to kill the Dark One) set my pulse racing. I knew as soon as he said it that it couldn't, shouldn't be possible. The Dark One indeed showed Rand the consequence of a world without evil. A world sterilised by the lack of free will to commit evil acts. Still however I thought ok, we can't have a world without the Dark One, at least have one where he's sealed up properly...FOREVER...but at some terrible cost to humanity; the breaking of the wheel? the loss of channelling forever? the merging of all worlds, Finn-land, Tel'aran'rhiod etc into one (my apologies for those obvious and over theorised examples). I, humbly, might I add, wanted something more. More than Rand saying oh hell, let's just fix this great big hole up properly until someone decides to bore a hole into again in 2000yrs time. It felt like an unsatisfying end despite having such a bold desire at the start of the book. It made me question the point in what he done!? If he was able to look back and reminisce about what he had done wrong as Lews Therin, then why not look back further again to previous battles, previous encounters as different entities? Elan Morin said it himself; "You and I have fought a thousand battles since the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand." I always assumed that the prologue, and Elan Moran's words where an unspoken challenge...try and change this cycle Dragon??? Perhaps I should have simply interpreted those words as sense of foreshadowing or foreboding as to how the series would end? How things turned out however almost seemed like an easy way out when there was the possibility of something grander!?

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The Rand arc could really be improved, the whole and endless philosophy bit was kind of dull. But there will be time for  a more exciting action  the next time , shame that we wont see it

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Rand vs The Dark One. This I'm sorry to say for me turned from being the most exciting, compelling part of the book, to being the most disappointing. Going into AMoL I wanted to believe that Rand's story was being told for a reason. I wanted an explanation as to why in this cyclical world, ruled by the Wheel of Time, where major events would ultimately repeat themselves, did Jordan decide to tell us Rand's tale? And oh boy did I think I was going to find my answer. Rand's bold statement of intent at the start of AMoL (to kill the Dark One) set my pulse racing. I knew as soon as he said it that it couldn't, shouldn't be possible. The Dark One indeed showed Rand the consequence of a world without evil. A world sterilised by the lack of free will to commit evil acts. Still however I thought ok, we can't have a world without the Dark One, at least have one where he's sealed up properly...FOREVER...but at some terrible cost to humanity; the breaking of the wheel? the loss of channelling forever? the merging of all worlds, Finn-land, Tel'aran'rhiod etc into one (my apologies for those obvious and over theorised examples). I, humbly, might I add, wanted something more. More than Rand saying oh hell, let's just fix this great big hole up properly until someone decides to bore a hole into again in 2000yrs time. It felt like an unsatisfying end despite having such a bold desire at the start of the book. It made me question the point in what he done!? If he was able to look back and reminisce about what he had done wrong as Lews Therin, then why not look back further again to previous battles, previous encounters as different entities? Elan Morin said it himself; "You and I have fought a thousand battles since the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand." I always assumed that the prologue, and Elan Moran's words where an unspoken challenge...try and change this cycle Dragon??? Perhaps I should have simply interpreted those words as sense of foreshadowing or foreboding as to how the series would end? How things turned out however almost seemed like an easy way out when there was the possibility of something grander!?

 

Perhaps the Creator wanted mankind to make the choice about whether living in his Creation was worth it.

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"No saidin in the void, nothing. He paused, then smiled and felt an enomorous relief?"

 

"Thusly, my understanding on the ending is simple.

Rand wields the True Source (both saidar and sadian(sp)) and doesn't need to draw upon it. Simply uses it to create that which he needs."

 

Very interesting explaination. I like it. 

Works for me. From pg 890/891

 

"He wove something majestic, a pattern of inerlaced saidar and saidin in their pure forms. Not Fire, not Spirit, not Water, not Earth, not Air. Purity. Light within itself...With this new form of the Power..."

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

 

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

 

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

Not holding up the Seanchan...helping to move them away from slavery and fitting in with the rest of the continent. Also Min would be a important buffer between Cadsuanne and Tuon.

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Someone may have already said this, but I am assuming that the switch between Moridin and Rand happened before they left the cave and it was actually Moridin's body carrying out Rand's, but Rand was in Moridin.  It was emphasized that he couldn't see the body he was carrying, or see very well at all, and that is what the Aiel woman (Nakomi, I assume) is referring to over his body before he passes out about that being what he "needs to do" (i.e. the body switch).

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Something that struck me about Rand's arc as a bit bizarre/inconsistent was that a mini-plot revolved around the fact that if Alanna died Rand would be driven into a warder rage and would lose the fight against the DO.  I can't remember the exact quote, but its in one of Nynaeve's few POVs and is something along the lines of ''if Alanna died they would lose the Last Battle.''

 

If they know that losing his Aes Sedai would cause Rand to lose the Last Battle why is Aviendha put right in the line of fire?  And Elayne to a slightly lesser extent.  There are several occasions where both of them could have died = game over?  It seems like while it wouldn't have been very interesting to read about El and Avi should have been safely stuck in the cave the dragons were kept in.

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

 

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

Not holding up the Seanchan...helping to move them away from slavery and fitting in with the rest of the continent. Also Min would be a important buffer between Cadsuanne and Tuon.

 

The whole thing with Min and Tuon was poorly done for me.  She jumped into that role way too easily.  She's not even going to ask "Uh, hey, is this for life?  Can I leave if I want to?"  I get that she was helping out, but it seemed to fit together way too neatly.  The Seanchan do not have a reputation for releasing the ties they make to people, as Mat warned her.  It seemed unnatural that she'd not be concerned about this. 

 

 

Someone may have already said this, but I am assuming that the switch between Moridin and Rand happened before they left the cave and it was actually Moridin's body carrying out Rand's, but Rand was in Moridin.  It was emphasized that he couldn't see the body he was carrying, or see very well at all, and that is what the Aiel woman (Nakomi, I assume) is referring to over his body before he passes out about that being what he "needs to do" (i.e. the body switch).

 

A good theory, but I don't feel that we were really given enough info here to be able to do more than speculate.  Which is annoying, given the unprecedented nature of the event.

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

 

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

Not holding up the Seanchan...helping to move them away from slavery and fitting in with the rest of the continent. Also Min would be a important buffer between Cadsuanne and Tuon.

 

Is there a single indication that Tuon or the Seanchan are open to being moved away from slavery? The one best hope was demonstrating that the adam would work on damane, but Tuon waved that away as immaterial.  I mean, i'll go ahead and invoke Godwin here, half the war criminals at Nuremburg argued they were just trying to make things better from the inside. And why should Min think she'll have a lick of luck influencing anyway aside from reading auras and hence helping prop up the empire? If she starts lying or hedging her prophecies shes likely to get her throat slit, or worse. Min knows how her powers could be exploited, she's always avoided exactly this kind of position unless it was in the service of a great cause and/or someone she loves and respects. She's going to toss away the man she's head over heels in love with to aid an empire of slavers in the vague hopes of influencing them to do some good? Why? And why wouldn't we expect Rand or Perrin or Lan or any other hero to make their remaining lifes work the same?

Edited by mbuehner

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Regarding Min following Rand, I just don't see it happening. What's the point of giving her such an important role within Seanchan, and in extension Randland, if that was the case? And it's not like Min to run to Rand when there is an important task before her.

 

What important task? Being a tool for Tuon to hold up her slavery empire? I don't see Min being thrilled with that.

Not holding up the Seanchan...helping to move them away from slavery and fitting in with the rest of the continent. Also Min would be a important buffer between Cadsuanne and Tuon.

 

The whole thing with Min and Tuon was poorly done for me.  She jumped into that role way too easily.  She's not even going to ask "Uh, hey, is this for life?  Can I leave if I want to?"  I get that she was helping out, but it seemed to fit together way too neatly.  The Seanchan do not have a reputation for releasing the ties they make to people, as Mat warned her.  It seemed unnatural that she'd not be concerned about this. 

Min has been being tied to others for years.  She is very used to have to play the role that was asked of her, and figured that now was not the time to go about arguing it, since it was unlikely Tuon would relent (the others never did).

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Something that struck me about Rand's arc as a bit bizarre/inconsistent was that a mini-plot revolved around the fact that if Alanna died Rand would be driven into a warder rage and would lose the fight against the DO.  I can't remember the exact quote, but its in one of Nynaeve's few POVs and is something along the lines of ''if Alanna died they would lose the Last Battle.''

 

If they know that losing his Aes Sedai would cause Rand to lose the Last Battle why is Aviendha put right in the line of fire?  And Elayne to a slightly lesser extent.  There are several occasions where both of them could have died = game over?  It seems like while it wouldn't have been very interesting to read about El and Avi should have been safely stuck in the cave the dragons were kept in.

Can you imagine trying to convince either of them, or Min for that matter to stay out of trouble?

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