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Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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 I am still trying to figure out

 

how the Lord of the GRAVE

 

didnt realize Lan was still alive...

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 I am still trying to figure out

 

how the Lord of the GRAVE

 

didnt realize Lan was still alive...

 

Lan is that good as I have said on numerous occassions.  :rolleyes:

Edited by Entreri
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The Ending: I found it sad how Tam said goodbye to his son and thought him dead, as well as Nynaeve.

 

However, about Min, Elayne, and Aviendha: He wasn't abandoning them. While he walked away in Moridin's body, they were looking at him. They still have his bond, so they can find him wherever.

 

Overall I'm satisfied with the ending, and the effort Brandon Sanderson made to complete Robert Jordan's great series.

 

Also, about the ending being written by Robert Jordan... by ending does Brandon Sanderson mean the last chapter, last few paragraphs, or what?

 

RJ wrote the entire epilogue except for the short Cadsuane PoV.  Brandon wrote everything else mostly.

 

I know about the Epilogue part but how did you know that Brandon wrote Cadsuane's POV?? Did he mention it in some Q&A?

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The Ending: I found it sad how Tam said goodbye to his son and thought him dead, as well as Nynaeve.

 

However, about Min, Elayne, and Aviendha: He wasn't abandoning them. While he walked away in Moridin's body, they were looking at him. They still have his bond, so they can find him wherever.

 

Overall I'm satisfied with the ending, and the effort Brandon Sanderson made to complete Robert Jordan's great series.

 

Also, about the ending being written by Robert Jordan... by ending does Brandon Sanderson mean the last chapter, last few paragraphs, or what?

 

RJ wrote the entire epilogue except for the short Cadsuane PoV.  Brandon wrote everything else mostly.

 

I know about the Epilogue part but how did you know that Brandon wrote Cadsuane's POV?? Did he mention it in some Q&A?

 

I saw him mention that he slipped in a tiny part amongst the Epilogue.  Terez and some other people said that it was definitely the Cadsuane scene so I'm just trusting them on their word since they seem to be the WoT super fans with all the inside knowledge.

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So we just take it as a given then that if two people cross balefire streams they are going to swap bodies eventually.....?

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The epilogue ends during Rand's funeral.   Do you want Rand to go up to his father during the funeral and say "Don't cry, I'm OK"?

 

Anyone that thinks that Rand will just abandon his girls and his children needs to give their books to someone with an ounce of imagination.   Who Rand and the 3 girls will tell is one of the unanswered questions that we were intentionally left with.

 

The pipe lighting scene is another BIG issue that we're left with.    But the assumption that Rand = Creator has to be one of the worst theories that I've ever read.   Rand = The Dragon....the hero that never surrenders to the Shadow.   If Dragon = Creator, then he wouldn't have mucked up the seals that lead to the Breaking of the World and the end of the 2nd Age.    (Also tie in the philosophical discussion from the books about being reborn as an opportunity to correct mistakes that you made before.)

 

Is the pipe-lighting a side-effect of wielding saidin, saidar, and TP at the same time?

Is it a side-effect of using that much power with Callendour?

Is it a new found talent/ability that will manifest in the 4th Age?

 

Don't expect any answers from Team Jordan over the next year.    There is a slim chance that we might get something in the Encyclopedia, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

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I was definitely left with a "Jesus" impression at the end.  And we thought TOM Rand was Jesus Rand.

 

So, I'm guessing he'll spend his days traveling the land, seeing new places, meeting new people, and performing the occasional miracle.  Not a bad way to go.  I wonder, though, if he's now immortal, or if he has a normal, non-channeler life span.

 

Interesting that Egwene seemingly becomes part of the pattern, and Rand becomes a more mundane kind of walking God.  Are kids have finally grown up :wink:

Yeah I got that feel as well really.

 

As much as I don't mind the idea of him walking off into obscurity, it also bothers me with the implications.

 

Min, Aviendha and Elayne are just going to forget about it? I have a feeling Min will follow him as the other two are so duty bound. But what about his kids? Including the ones that he's supposed to have other than the twins? Or will Rand just pop up one day with God powers and decide to play daddy in secret or something? I dunno, it bugged me a little to say the least lol.

 

 

I agree that Avi has a duty to her people and also the injuries to her feet. Elayne has her crown and Andor. Didn't Rand mention he had enough money to buy a farm in the Two Rivers? I too, think that it would be Min who would follow him.

 

Rand already said he would not be there for Elayne's children.

Ah I missed wherever Rand said he wouldn't be there for Elayne's children. Well that just creates a bigger hole? I mean, he's going to give Aviendha four children but then ignore his other two? It's all speculation of course, and somewhat frustrating knowing that we'll never have a legitimate answer to so many questions.

 

 

The lighting of the Pipe was intentionally left ambiguous. RJ talked about a "hook" he left in the final scene, something which was to leave the reader wondering. 

 

You will not get an answer from anyone bar Brandon or Team Jordan. It is not something that anyone missed in the books, and there is no definitive answer to the question. 

 

It is something he intentionally left people wondering about. 

I completely agree. I didn't know he specifically mentioned the "hook" in the final scene, but he's already shown that he was never opposed to leaving a lot of things open ended. I think it has to do with the style of the WoT series really. A constant theme being that there is never a true beginning, as there always has been a beginning, and there never is a true ending to things. With that being the theme I think RJ probably left as many things open ended as possible to give the readers no sense of finality; more a sense of things will continue to continue even after the series is over.

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''He regarded his pipe, riding up a little incline to the side of Thakan dar, now covered in plants. No
way to light the tabac. He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit.
And it was.''   "Rand smiled and turned south. He glanced over his shoulder. All three women at the pyre had turned
from it to look directly at him. He could make them out, though not much else, by the light of the
burning body.''-  Rand just thought and the pipe being lit. He glanced over his shoulder and Avi,Min and Elayne just  turned, no more.So if he is AVATAR of the Creator  they  would follow him. And  he light the pipe only by  THOUGHT. This is the limits of his powers.Rand use only THE ONE POWER ,but by his thought!
  As for that he just go south , and no more - "By Loial, son of Arent son of Halan, the Fourth Age. The End of the Last Book of The Wheel of Time. -this is the most clear answer ,that   he RAND tell the story to Loial!!! SO HIS FATHER ,HIS FRIENDS MUST KNOW HIS STORY TOO.BUT IF THEY KNOW , THEN RAND MUST MET THEM EARLIER BEFORE TELLING THE STORY.
 And this is it.

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To clarify for you about "the hook" as it was dubbed. 
 
 


 


INTERVIEW: Aug 4th, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Dean West (Paraphrased)

QUESTION
Are you going to conclude each plot? Little and big?

ROBERT JORDAN
No. I plan to leave some things left unanswered. I do not like it when other authors clean every little thread up. It is too clean. It isn't very realistic of problems, especially problems of this magnitude. They just don't always get solved. Also, I plan to leave the very last scene with a big hook leaving you with a great big question.

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To clarify for you about "the hook" as it was dubbed. 

 

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Aug 4th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Dean West (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Are you going to conclude each plot? Little and big?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. I plan to leave some things left unanswered. I do not like it when other authors clean every little thread up. It is too clean. It isn't very realistic of problems, especially problems of this magnitude. They just don't always get solved. Also, I plan to leave the very last scene with a big hook leaving you with a great big question.

 

Haha, I think he left us with more than just one great big question. Thanks for the quote though. I glad he let us know back then that this was his intention lol.

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The epilogue ends during Rand's funeral.   Do you want Rand to go up to his father during the funeral and say "Don't cry, I'm OK"?

 

Anyone that thinks that Rand will just abandon his girls and his children needs to give their books to someone with an ounce of imagination.   Who Rand and the 3 girls will tell is one of the unanswered questions that we were intentionally left with.

 

The pipe lighting scene is another BIG issue that we're left with.    But the assumption that Rand = Creator has to be one of the worst theories that I've ever read.   Rand = The Dragon....the hero that never surrenders to the Shadow.   If Dragon = Creator, then he wouldn't have mucked up the seals that lead to the Breaking of the World and the end of the 2nd Age.    (Also tie in the philosophical discussion from the books about being reborn as an opportunity to correct mistakes that you made before.)

 

Is the pipe-lighting a side-effect of wielding saidin, saidar, and TP at the same time?

Is it a side-effect of using that much power with Callendour?

Is it a new found talent/ability that will manifest in the 4th Age?

 

Don't expect any answers from Team Jordan over the next year.    There is a slim chance that we might get something in the Encyclopedia, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

 

The most common theory (and the one that makes the most sense) on Rand lighting the pipe is that during his "battle" with the DO, where he was manipulating the pattern, he learnt how to manipulate the pattern and uses that skill to light his pipe.

Edited by bleh
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The epilogue ends during Rand's funeral.   Do you want Rand to go up to his father during the funeral and say "Don't cry, I'm OK"?

 

Anyone that thinks that Rand will just abandon his girls and his children needs to give their books to someone with an ounce of imagination.   Who Rand and the 3 girls will tell is one of the unanswered questions that we were intentionally left with.

 

The pipe lighting scene is another BIG issue that we're left with.    But the assumption that Rand = Creator has to be one of the worst theories that I've ever read.   Rand = The Dragon....the hero that never surrenders to the Shadow.   If Dragon = Creator, then he wouldn't have mucked up the seals that lead to the Breaking of the World and the end of the 2nd Age.    (Also tie in the philosophical discussion from the books about being reborn as an opportunity to correct mistakes that you made before.)

 

Is the pipe-lighting a side-effect of wielding saidin, saidar, and TP at the same time?

Is it a side-effect of using that much power with Callendour?

Is it a new found talent/ability that will manifest in the 4th Age?

 

Don't expect any answers from Team Jordan over the next year.    There is a slim chance that we might get something in the Encyclopedia, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

 

The most common theory (and the one that makes the most sense) on Rand lighting the pipe is that during his "battle" with the DO, where he was manipulating the pattern, he learnt how to manipulate the pattern and uses that skill to light his pipe.

I dont know if my personal feeling is he learned... I think it was part of his nature and after the Last Battle there are some remnants. A shadow of a shadow of the power he held during the face-off. He can make small changes that are basically manipulating the pattern to a small degree. He can light his pipe but probably not burn down a building.

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When did Rand and Morridin swap and how was it done?  It would appear that it was done while Rand was drawing Morridin's power through Callandor but that would mean that it was Morridin (in Rand's body) who walked out of the cave carrying Rand (in Morridin's body).  That doesn't quite seem right...........

 

Also back in the tents, didn't Nynaeve say that "Morridin" wasn't going to make it?  But I guess it did later say that Morridin's body wasn't checked...........

Rand carried himself out of the cave, in Morrodins body.

There is a reason that scene was so vague. :wink:

 

No, Nyneave said Rand wouldn't make it. She said it wasn't fair that Rand was going to die, and the other one, was probably going to live. (she didn't know about the body swap)

 

 

'He regarded his pipe, riding up a little incline to the side of Thakan dar, now covered in plants. No

way to light the tabac. He inspected it for a moment in the darkness, then thought of the pipe being lit.

And it was.'' "Rand smiled and turned south. He glanced over his shoulder. All three women at the pyre had turned

from it to look directly at him. He could make them out, though not much else, by the light of the

burning body.''- Rand just thought and the pipe being lit. He glanced over his shoulder and Avi,Min and Elayne just turned, no more.So if he is AVATAR of the Creator they would follow him. And he light the pipe only by THOUGHT. This is the limits of his powers.Rand use only THE ONE POWER ,but by his thought!

As for that he just go south , and no more - "By Loial, son of Arent son of Halan, the Fourth Age. The End of the Last Book of The Wheel of Time. -this is the most clear answer ,that he RAND tell the story to Loial!!! SO HIS FATHER ,HIS FRIENDS MUST KNOW HIS STORY TOO.BUT IF THEY KNOW , THEN RAND MUST MET THEM EARLIER BEFORE TELLING THE STORY.

And this is it.

Posted on this a few pages ago.

My Thought is this.

Rand can't channel Sadian.

He can Channel the True Source.

And he doesn't necissarilly have to draw the power out.

 

He spent the equivolent of a Millenia battling the Dark One in that Void. He effectively (and he mentioned this him self) spent like.. 100-1000 years in that place, fighting the DO. (or that it felt like a 1000 years).

 

While spending that length of time there, he was also playing around with the pattern (as his mind saw it) weaving his visions for what he wanted.

 

In doing so, for so long, my Oppinion on this matter, is that the True Source for rand is not so much weaving as it is simply willing something to happen.

 

I think  there may have been some foreshadowing towards the part of simply willing something to happen.

 

We see time in and time again, that the girls just happen to come up with a weave that does something.

Why did they just happen? Could it not be.. that they willedfor an outcome, and they got it? And by willing something to happen, while channeling Sadar/Sadian, caused it to happen?

 

Look at Androl.

He spent the majority of his life.

Traveling.

Why wouldn't he be good at making Waygates? Why wouldn't he just have an easier time willing a gateway into existance?

 

Does Nyneave not use her willpower to heal someone and will it to happen?

Egwene willed for the extiance of anti-balefire. By simply willing for the opposite of balefire.

 

Thusly, my understanding on the ending is simple.

Rand wields the True Source (both saidar and sadian(sp)) and doesn't need to draw upon it. Simply uses it to create that which he needs.

Edited by SinisterDeath
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The most common theory (and the one that makes the most sense) on Rand lighting the pipe is that during his "battle" with the DO, where he was manipulating the pattern, he learnt how to manipulate the pattern and uses that skill to light his pipe.

 

 

The frequency of a theory isn't proof of accuracy (cue Gaidal Cain = Olver and Taimendred).    Exactly what do you mean when you say that Rand manipulated the pattern during the battle with the DO?   Building make-believe visions isn't manipulating the pattern....they were just what-if scenarios.

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Still don't think that a world with an absence of evil is as bad as any of the Dark One's options. Not buying it. Kill the Dark One, Rand. Just KILL HIM!

 

You're missing the point then.  The point isn't that there is no evil.  The point is that people have lost their free will because they don't have the option to choose anymore.

No, I don't think that killing the Dark One would have taken away the right for anyone to choose anything. Not having an outside entity actively pushing evil on the world isn't the same as removing people's capacity to do bad things. I think Rand had it wrong.

I had a theory here before the book which seemed a bit insane but it really I thought made sense. In terms of the fact that it was made very clear that Mashadar, Shadar Logoth, Fain etc was a totally separate evil to the DO. That Evil was developed through jealousy, hatred etc. The DO was outside of the pattern. I would say that Mashadar really represented all those bad traits within men. The evil of the DO is a different kind of evil. An evil which is an external influence on the pattern and has the potential to cause the wheel to totally unravel and change its course. That is not something which is not built into humans but rather a totally different factor. Mashadar and the evil it represents are all the selfish traits of humans and so Rand could kill the DO without getting rid of that balance within each human. Obviously that was not how RJ saw it though as he did not write it like that and I think it was more of a mad theory then anything else.

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My thoughts:

 

1. I agree with the decision to reforge the bore. The whole book gave too much emphasis on "turning" a person into darkness, as if there's something missing in their eyes. One side of the equation is lost-that person had absolutely no access to the good side at all. A person will always have choice to act for good or evil; but a "turned" person doesn't have that option anymore. In Rand's vision of the world without the DO, he saw the same emptiness in the eyes of Elayne, and realized that if he killed the DO, it's as if he "turned" everyone alive to Good instead of the dark, choice being removed from the equation.

 

2. I was completely satisfied with how Rand left without telling anyone. He knows that the 3 know he'a alive. Cadsuand knowing is also appropriater, since she's the one who insisted that Rand should also believe that he's going to survive. Nynaeve will eventually figure it out (there's no chance of her giving up on that questions since it's hinted already that he's gonna go after the 3 girls until she finds out the truth), and thus so will Lan. Maybe somewhere along the line, even Tam and Moiraine (hey, he thought she was dead for a long while. payback's a bitch).

As much as possible, Rand must let the rest of the world believe that he's dead. As buddhatanker pointed out, aside from Rand's personal reason of finally being free to explore and live his life, he also has to make sure that the Dragon's Peace is maintained. The moment the world knows he lives, they could consider the contract void, since the one thing that Rand offered as the consideration was not actually given: his life.

 

3. The lit pipe: creator powers or just an ability to shift the pattern? Either way, it's very powerful. And I like that he has it after all he went through.

 

4. And yes, I also think that by the start of the prologue, it was already Rand in Moridin's body carrying Rand's body with Moridin's dying soul inside. Hence the vagueness of the scene. And Flinn said that they "found them together", and he was only speculating when he said that "Rand must have carried him out of the pit." It was only the grey haired Aiel (Nakomi?) who actually saw Rand/Moridin coming otu of the pit.

 

Obviously, I loved every part and arc of aMoL. Perfect ending, though, sadly, it IS an ending.

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A little Christian symbolism occurs to me in understanding the epilogue. 

 

After the crucifixion and the passing of the sabbath, the women go to the tomb where Jesus is buried.  There they meet an Angel who announces that he isn't there.  They then go and tell the disciples about the empty tomb.  Roughly, at the same some disciples are walking on the road leaving Jerusalem mightily depressed where they meet a stranger.  The stranger begins to talk with them and it is eventually revealed to be in fact the resurrected Jesus.

 

Looking at it in terms of Rand's funeral...The women at the tomb are the first witnesses of Jesus' resurrection.  Aviendha, Elayne, and Min look in Rand's direction as he rides off bearing witness to him.

 

You could assume in a post-epilogue, Tam on the road back to the Two Rivers meeting up with a stranger, who he slowly realizes is his son....

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To clarify for you about "the hook" as it was dubbed. 

 

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Aug 4th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Dean West (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Are you going to conclude each plot? Little and big?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. I plan to leave some things left unanswered. I do not like it when other authors clean every little thread up. It is too clean. It isn't very realistic of problems, especially problems of this magnitude. They just don't always get solved. Also, I plan to leave the very last scene with a big hook leaving you with a great big question.

 

 

Wow.  Well, I have to say I find that a little annoying.  To my mind cleaning up "every little thread" would be making sure things like Verin's other letters get to see the light of day.  The pipe thing and the body switch (which I'm assuming at this point no one understands any better than I do, aside from home cooked theorizing) seem like some very big hooks indeed.  They potentially cast doubt on prior assumptions about the nature of what was possible in WOT and just what Rand is.  I get what he's saying about making things too clean, but personally I prefer for there to actually be something I could figure out, an underlying purpose to mystery or ambiguity.  Mystery for it's own sake is just as easy as adding new information that never gets explained; a weak plot device if you asked me. 

 

Then again, reading that epilogue I have some doubts about whether it would have been used verbatim if Jordan had finished the series.  Had he done so, it would never have been viewed as so sacrosanct and there's a good chance he might have edited it heavily or even replaced it entirely.

Edited by batcaver
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So, Rand can directly influence the pattern and does so to light his pipe.  It is almost like the Real Pattern can be controlled by him in the same way others can control Tel'aran'rhiod.  Here is my question...why doesn't he make it so he can channel again?  Or is he really happy with being unable to channel for the rest of his life?

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"No saidin in the void, nothing. He paused, then smiled and felt an enomorous relief?"

 

"Thusly, my understanding on the ending is simple.

Rand wields the True Source (both saidar and sadian(sp)) and doesn't need to draw upon it. Simply uses it to create that which he needs."

 

Very interesting explaination. I like it. 

Edited by Entreri
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"No saidin in the void, nothing. He paused, then smiled and felt an enomorous relief?"

 

"Thusly, my understanding on the ending is simple.

Rand wields the True Source (both saidar and sadian(sp)) and doesn't need to draw upon it. Simply uses it to create that which he needs."

 

Very interesting explaination. I like it. 

 

I like it.  RJ studied physics, and from a partical physics standpoint it makes some degree of sense.  As you increase in power, you are able to delve deeper and deeper into the very fabric of the universe (think CERN and the Higgs boson).  So, maybe Rand did not burn himself out, but as indicated when he sealed the bore, because so powerful that he no longer had to deal with the low energy 5 types of power and saidin, but rather is able to directly wield the True Source, which is essentially influencing the pattern? 

 

I don't know, from the way it is written I still feel that Rand is able to directly wield the threads of the pattern, and it is because he is the Dragon, just as he does during the last battle.

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So, Rand can directly influence the pattern and does so to light his pipe. It is almost like the Real Pattern can be controlled by him in the same way others can control Tel'aran'rhiod. Here is my question...why doesn't he make it so he can channel again? Or is he really happy with being unable to channel for the rest of his life?

 

 

 

I don't think he needs to channel again, if he has (arguably) Tel'aran'rhiod control over the real world. As Perrin would nonchalantly say: meh,"it's only a weave."

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Oh, and just to add my piece to the "sealing the Dark One" choice...

 

... my main argument for killing the Dark One was that it would just doom the world to another cycle.  That said, I personally got the impression that, with using saidin, saidar and the TP all at once on his seal, that the seal became permanent.  I don't know if that was outright stated, but that was definitely the impression I was left with.

 

I would agree with this, particularly since Birgitte said they would be dumping the Horn of Valere at the bottom of the ocean. I don't think they would do that if there was a chance that the seal was not permanent.

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