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Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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In my opinion, the SL/Mordeth "evil" is not so much a theological evil as it is more of an uncaring/unknowing/coldness like death. An absence of life. This can be viewed as evil by people who are alive, because they are rightfully frightened by it, but they would just be confusing terms. A lot of people in the books look at something they don't like and call it evil.

 

 

SL/Mordeth's goal was complete cold - death - everywhere. This type of "evil" would be an oppositional force to the DO naturally, as much as it would oppose light. 

 

I don't think it would need to get its power from either the DO or the creator - it gets its power from the cold physics of the universe and the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

 

See this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

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@fanatic mr. fox,

"to me rand's arc was to be the rift healer."

you know,i never considered rand a rift healer,sure,rand mended

the rift during the last battle,as witnessed by aviendha "as the dark one

ripped the land apart,rand stitched it back together", nor as a land healer

i.e. the dragon is one with the land,in my opinion,the healing part was just

a fraction of the whole dragon reborn raison d'etre.

verin nailed it when she said that rand was shifting the world on its foundations,

and rand did exactly that,his sudden appearance in the sky above falme caused an

enormous ripple effect all over randland,and forced everyone out of their comfort

zone,e.g. aes sedai,aiel,sea folk,forsaken,rulers etc.

rand also created endless chain reactions, i.e. aludra,although she invented cannons

and grenades,rand was the one who did start this specific sequence of events when he destroyed her fireworks in cairhien.

let me quote part of of what the narrator said post dumai's wells,these few words

summed up magnificently the essense of the dragon reborn:

"on a day of fire and blood,the first nine aes sedai swore fealty to the dragon reborn,

and the world was changed forever....."

Edited by jack of shadows
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@sn33k3rs,

"i really believe it was either elayne or aviendha(channeling),rand "thought" of his

pipe being lit and it was."

ok,back to the pipe thing again,i swear,robert jordan is hovering over all of us

randlanders and laughing his head off....

are you alluding to rand's bond with his three girls?because if you do,the bond doesn't

work like that,even rand cannot use the bond to transmit a specific request to light his

pipe,the bond does not give rand telepathic abilities.

when rand returned to tear(after his viens of gold epiphany)min could sense that he was

apprehensive about something,but she could not tell what was causing rand so much distress,

not until she saw tam standing on the steps.

post last battle,the three girls could sense that rand was alive and getting better "min nodded,

feeling the pulsing of the bond in the back of her mind.it grew stronger each moment."

they could pinpoint his location,after all rand was just a short distance away,and they probably

could sense how extremely happy he was.

Edited by jack of shadows
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@sn33k3rs,

"i really believe it was either elayne or aviendha(channeling),rand "thought" of his

pipe being lit and it was."

ok,back to the pipe thing again,i swear,robert jordan is hovering over all of us

randlanders and laughing his head off....

are you alluding to rand's bond with his three girls?because if you do,the bond doesn't

work like that,even rand cannot use the bond to transmit a specific request to light his

pipe,the bond does not give rand telepathic abilities.

when rand returned to tear(after his viens of gold epiphany)min could sense that he was

apprehensive about something,but she could not tell what was causing rand so much distress,

not until she saw tam standing on the steps.

post last battle,the three girls could sense that rand was alive and getting better "min nodded,

feeling the pulsing of the bond in the back of her mind.it grew stronger each moment."

they could pinpoint his location,after all rand was just a short distance away,and they probably

could sense how extremely happy he was.

It doesn't have anything to do with telepathy.  The girls were watching him.  They saw him take out his pipe.  They saw him raise his hand, then look at the pipe with a look of resigned acceptance.  They're not dumb, either of them (but sounds like ELayne to me) could have guessed what happened and lit his pipe for him.

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^^

I think that is the best solution to the impossible pipe. I think RJ tipped his hand when he notes that all three girls were looking at him.

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@clutzyninja,

"the girls were watching him.they saw him take out his pipe."

no.the girls were watching rand's silhouette,you ignored the visibility problem,

we have three different point of views attesting to how dark it already was during

moridin's funeral.the first one(and the earliest) is from tam:

"in the evening,even with his light,it was hard to tell aiel from aes sedai,two rivers

man from tairen king.all were shapes in the night."

a little later we have min's point of view:

"heads in the night,shadows,turned toward min,aviendha and elayne."

and the last one is from rand:

"he could make them out,though not much else,by the light of the burning body."

 

let's say that rand was riding his horse hundred yards away from the girls,outside the

perimeter of light(from the pyre), what do you think they could see? they could see a silhouette

of a man on horse back moving slowly away from them and not much else,they could not see something

as small as a pipe,and they certainly could not distinguish rand's facial expressions.

the only reason the girls were able to pinpoint rand's location was because of the bond.

Edited by jack of shadows
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Here's my own simple solution. RJ has stated before that the Shayol Gul/Blight area was sorta/kinda/TAR in some fashion; not quite in the real world, not quite outside it. Rand was able to "think" his pipe simply because he was in a quasi-world of dreams environment. The Pattern is thinner here, the impossible (which has been seen throughout the series) can happen here. Even as far back as the first book, when the Eye of the World appeared, it only came (or they were transported to it) through need, a hallmark of TAR. 

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I know Lanfear and possibly others have said SG, Rhuidean pre-tSR, stedding and a few other places don't have TaR reflections or are at least inaccessible in TaR, but they can be wrong or lying. Outside SG though, with others who can manipulate TaR present before and after...seems doubtful (recall the the Pit of Doom is gone at this point).

 

Of course then there's Moridin's line about this place near SG and plenty of other things...plenty of conflicting things between what some characters think or observe and what we actually see happen in that area.

Edited by Cybertrolloc
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@jedman67,

"rand was able to "think" his pipe simlpy because he was in a quasi-world of dreams environment."

i don't think there is a simple solution to how rand did light his pipe.lol.

you see,rand lit his pipe hours after he sealed the bore.

sealing the bore transformed shayol ghul into something completely different: "this was shayol

ghul,but not as he remembered it.a blooming shayol ghul,full of life."

the same is happening in the blight,its receding,let me quote some information from robert jordan

notes: "the blight recedes to some extent,i am not sure how far,it recedes a good bit.though."

dream walkers or the likes of them could probably access shayol ghul through tel'aran'rhiod now,

but in my opinion,when rand lit his pipe he did it in the new shayol ghul i.e. the real world,not

the quasi-world of dreams.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • Why can't Rand channel, after taking on Moridin's body?  Didn't RJ say that the ability to channel goes with the soul?  So shouldn't Rand still be able to channel?  I guess maybe Moridin got burned out during the confrontation with the Dark One, but again, wouldn't Rand be able to channel as long as Rand didn't get burned out?  (I guess the answer would be that maybe Rand got burned out too?)  And if it's correct that Rand and/or Moridin got burned out, then wouldn't it be possible for Rand to be Healed, so that he could channel again?  (In fact, I would assume that Elayne or Aviendha could Heal him, if they learned the technique from Nynaeve.

 

After reading the whole thread, there are only three things I feel like I can add. Lots of good info, well worth the 45 pages.

 

In response to the above, as others have said, Rand seems to have been burned out. This makes perfect sense--it is clear from a POV from Moiraine in New Spring that I just read (her first POV, Chapter 2, I believe), that someone who is stilled can sense the One Power but cannot touch it, but that someone who has been burned out cannot sense the power at all. I believe the Setalle Anan a'dam incident referred to this as well. Rand's condition is exactly what we would expect someone who has been burned out to be (Real Power weirdness aside). The bond survived Rand's burning out either because Elayne "owns" the bond (in that case the warder being burned out doesn't effect it at all), or because of the other bond voodoo she did to include Min, which probably applied to Rand as well, or both.

 

Damer Flinn Healed some Aes Sedai who got severed from Rand breaking the shield at Dumai's Wells. I cannot recall if these Aes Sedai were burned out or stilled from this, but if they were burned out and he Healed them, then it would stand to reason that Rand could be Healed and be able to channel the One Power. If they were just stilled, then I'm not sure we know if burning out can be Healed or not. 

 

However, Rand seemed pretty excited about not being able to channel, so it's doubtful he would want to be Healed, unless it's to live longer.

 

The second thing is, I wasn't bothered at all by Rand riding away at the end. I expected him to ride away. He needed to get out of there--he is, for all intents and purposes, Moridin. He's one of the Forsaken; Nae'blis, one of the most evil people to ever live. He deserves to die for the countless deaths he's caused. I can't imagine that he would be treated very well.

 

I don't think convincing people that he's Rand would be that easy. WE know it's Rand, but a Lightfollower might find it easier to believe that sometime before Rand died, Moridin snatched some memories and assumed the bond. Pevara and Androl have some memory swapping going on. Who knows what might happen when you get your flows all linked up with the Dragon Reborn and mess with the Dark One? Thereafter Moridin creepily (but smartly) sends warm and loving thoughts to Aviendha, Min, and Elyane, yet is otherwise clearly stark raving mad; little seals floating about in his eyes, talking about body swaps, and lighting little fires with his mind. Memory planting and weird bond trickiness are all stuff we've seen in the series. The Light could just as easily believe that as a body swap.

 

So Rand trying to explain away the body swap seems a bit problematic to me. Much better to sneak away and lay low for a while. They're even probably going to look for him; and heads will roll for letting him escape. I knew the body swap was coming, and I kept wondering how he was going to get out of there as Moridin without being noticed. Not to mention the Dragon's Peace needs him to be dead.

 

Lastly, just a quick comparison of the final moments we see of Lews Therin vs. the final moments we see of Rand al'Thor.

 

At beginning of The Eye of the World, Lews Therin has gone mad and destroyed the world. In healing him, Ishamael gives him his life back. Lews Therin "awakes" and sees himself alive, and his family dead. He killed them. He goes away. He takes in the One Power in massive quantities. He leaves behind a huge mountain. He kills himself, thinking of those he loved.

 

Contrast that with...

 

At the end of A Memory of Light, Rand has survived madness and saved the world. Moridin, willing or not, gives Rand his life back. Rand awakes and sees himself dead, and his family alive. He kept them alive. He goes away. The One Power is gone, a relief. He leaves behind an empty tent. He lives, thinking of those he loved. And has a smoke.

 

Beginning and end. Opposite, yet the same. Pain, selfishness, a mountain, a legacy of fear and dread, vs. joy, selflessness, nothing, a legacy of peace and hope. Very striking to me.

 

That's all I have to add. I greatly enjoyed this thread.

Edited by Gildan27
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Damer Flinn Healed some Aes Sedai who got severed from Rand breaking the shield at Dumai's Wells. I cannot recall if these Aes Sedai were burned out or stilled from this, but if they were burned out and he Healed them, then it would stand to reason that Rand could be Healed and be able to channel the One Power. If they were just stilled, then I'm not sure we know if burning out can be Healed or not. 

 

Hey Gildan, great post and welcome to DM!

 

As for the above stilling can be healed, while being burnt out can not. In one the connection to the op is simply cut and in the other it is totally gone.

 

Interview: Feb 20th, 2013Question

Regarding burning out, is it Healable?

Brandon Sanderson

Not in the same way that stilling is Healed. All it says in the notes is what I just said. And that Nynaeve would not be able to Heal Setalle. Being reborn would heal burning out, but transmigration would not. That's why even though Lanfear shifted bodies, she was still reduced.

 

 

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I think Rand made the right choice.  Is the DO being dead better than the other DO options, yes, but the way things were actually set is the best option.  Despite the fact that he brought out the worst in people, he inadvertently brought out the best too.  That is why the good people from the Third Age are stronger than the people of the AoL, that is why Rand was able to win and LTT lost.

That actually makes the most sense of anything I've heard so far. That he left him not because killing him removes free will but because the threat he poses brings out the best of the human spirit. That's logic I can actually buy.

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@gildan27,

"he(rand) needed to get out of there-he is,for all intents and purposes,moridin,one of the most evil

people to ever live".

the situation regarding rand's new appearance is not as grim as you say it is,post last battle,the number of people who actually have any kind of knowledge about moridin is very limited:

1.graendal and moghedien.the last two remaining forsaken,the former in under compulsion,the latter

is a prisoner.mesaana is also alive but she is brain dead,so she doesn't count.

2.nynaeve and moiraine,obviously.they saw rand and moridin fight,although to the best of my recollection rand always used moridin's birth name elan during their fight,both of them do know who

elan morin tedronai is.

3.thom.guarded the entry into the cave and saw three people going in and four coming out,considering

how close moiraine and thom became since her rescue,it would be safe to assume that thom is well aware

who the fourth man is.

4.perrin.saw moridin thrice.twice during the last battle and once in the sickbay tent(rand),has no idea

who moridin is,only that he is a forsaken.

5.damer flinn.was part of the healing team with nynaeve and moiraine,like perrin,doesn't know who the

man laying on the pallet is,only that he is a forsaken.

the last two are marginal inclusion.

6.cadsuane.knows or at least suspects that rand is alive.saw rand in his new appearance just before he

rode off.i haven't the foggiest idea what did cadsuane think when she saw this unknown person on horseback in front of her.

7.alivia.followed rand's orders blindly and prepared his escape.seemed to be completely unfazed by the

fact that she was gathering provisions for the wrong man on the wrong side of the tent!(she knew nothing about the body swap and moridin was an absolute stranger).

i read the epilogue a dozen times,and alivia's actions never made any sense to me.

 

nine people in all.hardly a problem to be overly concerned about.

rand disappeared after the last battle because he never intended to stay champion of light a second

longer than necessary,not because the way he looks now.

Edited by jack of shadows
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Guys, the point is that the Dark One represents evil.  Just like saidin and saidar work together to turn the wheel of time, the dark one and the creator oppose each other and work together to enable free will and choice.  I know it isnt explicitly explained in the series, and I feel like thats where the writing needed some clarification, but it is clear thats the overall scheme of things once you see Rand's last sentences coming out the Pit of Doom in the epilogue.

So Rand would have had to seriously affect and damage all of mankind, removing an aspect of every single person's personality, to "kill' the dark one, as the DO is a manifestation of the darker side of human nature, that should never have been allowed tho touch the world as he did after the bore was made. I was pretty pleased with how existential and philosophical the whole sequence between the DO and Rand got, as I have had trouble with the idea of the DO as a 'person' or entity from the beginning, the idea was out of keeping with the well thought out complexity of the rest of the world, and I love the idea that all the people in the story pretty much thought of the DO as an entity til near the end, that their long held beliefs turned out to be not quite right. It all add to the layers of complexity and realism of the world created.

 

 

 

The overall message is that if Rand kills the Dark One he kills all evil in the world. Thereby removing the option to choose evil from everyones lives. This means that they lose their free will and are nothing but puppets.

But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves.

 

There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain.

 

Yet the Dark One does not.

 

Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle.

I think that's the whole point, the inevitability of the situation.

 

Kill the dark one? I was slight incredulous when I was reading that. To me, that's like trying to kill Fear.

 

I thought the imagined world without the Dark One was appropriate, It was a completely new world, not the one after the Last Battle, So these people would have never known the negative emotions associated with the Dark One, ie Fear, Hate, Jealousy, Anger. I find the decision to not "Kill" the Dark One appropriate.

 

It seems apparent to me that although the Dark One is said to exist outside of the Pattern, It is also still very much apart of the Pattern. That the True Power co exists with Saidar and Saidin as making up the pattern. Which to me fits with the notion that the Bore was drilled by channellers trying to find a new source of power. If the True Power had not been part of the Pattern or at least connected then how could anyone possibly have known to go looking for it.

 

 

I have a question regarding the final scene with Rand, He reaches for the One Power and find he has no ability anymore, But then wills his pipe to ignite? What exactly is going on there? Is this alluding to the fact he no longer requires the One Power and weaving it to still have abilities to create and destroy? Or is he something else now?

 

I agree with all your points, and as to your question at the end, I equate his ability to will the pipe alight and to make things grow as akin to or something similar to how things can be changed at will in Tel'aran'rhiod, by a person with enough strength of mind and the right training and experience. I think after all he went through and the things he learned about the world and the pattern, he is left able to bend it to his will, just like Perrin and Egwene mastered the World of Dreams. That is just my opinion, but I liked how neatly it fit.

 

I think for Rand it may have been a relief to no longer be a channeller, and to no longer look like or be Rand Al Thor, so he could be free to live as he wished from then on, but it would have been a bit anticlimactic for him to end up just like other normals, with normal lifespan and no cool abilities at all, and being burned out or stilled often kills a person, as there seems nothing left to live for, but with his ability to bend the pattern to his will this would not have been an issue. 

 

That's what I thought, any further opinions welcome, i love reading about everyone's personal reasoning out of these issues that were left for us to reason out, of which there were many.

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Guys, the point is that the Dark One represents evil.  Just like saidin and saidar work together to turn the wheel of time, the dark one and the creator oppose each other and work together to enable free will and choice.  I know it isnt explicitly explained in the series, and I feel like thats where the writing needed some clarification, but it is clear thats the overall scheme of things once you see Rand's last sentences coming out the Pit of Doom in the epilogue.

So Rand would have had to seriously affect and damage all of mankind, removing an aspect of every single person's personality, to "kill' the dark one, as the DO is a manifestation of the darker side of human nature, that should never have been allowed tho touch the world as he did after the bore was made. I was pretty pleased with how existential and philosophical the whole sequence between the DO and Rand got, as I have had trouble with the idea of the DO as a 'person' or entity from the beginning, the idea was out of keeping with the well thought out complexity of the rest of the world, and I love the idea that all the people in the story pretty much thought of the DO as an entity til near the end, that their long held beliefs turned out to be not quite right. It all add to the layers of complexity and realism of the world created.

 

 

 

The overall message is that if Rand kills the Dark One he kills all evil in the world. Thereby removing the option to choose evil from everyones lives. This means that they lose their free will and are nothing but puppets.

But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves.

 

There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain.

 

Yet the Dark One does not.

 

Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle.

I think that's the whole point, the inevitability of the situation.

 

Kill the dark one? I was slight incredulous when I was reading that. To me, that's like trying to kill Fear.

 

I thought the imagined world without the Dark One was appropriate, It was a completely new world, not the one after the Last Battle, So these people would have never known the negative emotions associated with the Dark One, ie Fear, Hate, Jealousy, Anger. I find the decision to not "Kill" the Dark One appropriate.

 

It seems apparent to me that although the Dark One is said to exist outside of the Pattern, It is also still very much apart of the Pattern. That the True Power co exists with Saidar and Saidin as making up the pattern. Which to me fits with the notion that the Bore was drilled by channellers trying to find a new source of power. If the True Power had not been part of the Pattern or at least connected then how could anyone possibly have known to go looking for it.

 

 

I have a question regarding the final scene with Rand, He reaches for the One Power and find he has no ability anymore, But then wills his pipe to ignite? What exactly is going on there? Is this alluding to the fact he no longer requires the One Power and weaving it to still have abilities to create and destroy? Or is he something else now?

 

I agree with all your points, and as to your question at the end, I equate his ability to will the pipe alight and to make things grow as akin to or something similar to how things can be changed at will in Tel'aran'rhiod, by a person with enough strength of mind and the right training and experience. I think after all he went through and the things he learned about the world and the pattern, he is left able to bend it to his will, just like Perrin and Egwene mastered the World of Dreams. That is just my opinion, but I liked how neatly it fit.

 

I think for Rand it may have been a relief to no longer be a channeller, and to no longer look like or be Rand Al Thor, so he could be free to live as he wished from then on, but it would have been a bit anticlimactic for him to end up just like other normals, with normal lifespan and no cool abilities at all, and being burned out or stilled often kills a person, as there seems nothing left to live for, but with his ability to bend the pattern to his will this would not have been an issue. 

 

That's what I thought, any further opinions welcome, i love reading about everyone's personal reasoning out of these issues that were left for us to reason out, of which there were many.

 

As to the doom of another cycle.... isn't that just the nature of people, both in the WoT and our world? The ebb and flow of light and dark and lessons learned, unlearned and learned again? Life wouldn't be a journey without this constant process.

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@gildan27,

"he(rand) needed to get out of there-he is,for all intents and purposes,moridin,one of the most evil

people to ever live".

the situation regarding rand's new appearance is not as grim as you say it is,post last battle,the number of people who actually have any kind of knowledge about moridin is very limited:

1.graendal and moghedien.the last two remaining forsaken,the former in under compulsion,the latter

is a prisoner.mesaana is also alive but she is brain dead,so she doesn't count.

2.nynaeve and moiraine,obviously.they saw rand and moridin fight,although to the best of my recollection rand always used moridin's birth name elan during their fight,both of them do know who

elan morin tedronai is.

3.thom.guarded the entry into the cave and saw three people going in and four coming out,considering

how close moiraine and thom became since her rescue,it would be safe to assume that thom is well aware

who the fourth man is.

4.perrin.saw moridin thrice.twice during the last battle and once in the sickbay tent(rand),has no idea

who moridin is,only that he is a forsaken.

5.damer flinn.was part of the healing team with nynaeve and moiraine,like perrin,doesn't know who the

man laying on the pallet is,only that he is a forsaken.

the last two are marginal inclusion.

6.cadsuane.knows or at least suspects that rand is alive.saw rand in his new appearance just before he

rode off.i haven't the foggiest idea what did cadsuane think when she saw this unknown person on horseback in front of her.

7.alivia.followed rand's orders blindly and prepared his escape.seemed to be completely unfazed by the

fact that she was gathering provisions for the wrong man on the wrong side of the tent!(she knew nothing about the body swap and moridin was an absolute stranger).

i read the epilogue a dozen times,and alivia's actions never made any sense to me.

 

nine people in all.hardly a problem to be overly concerned about.

rand disappeared after the last battle because he never intended to stay champion of light a second

longer than necessary,not because the way he looks now.

I think we just didn't get to read about Alivia being assigned her task, we know she knew she had to help him die, and I think she would have known that she was helping Rand Al Thor the saver of the world to die, to enable rand the person to live on unmolested, to free him of connection to his previous role, I don't think she was acting blindly, thinking she was helping the other man to escape. I reckon that Min, Rand, Nyneave and Moiraine worked this out and told her how they figured her role would be, and shared this information with Elayne and Aviendha. 

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  • Why can't Rand channel, after taking on Moridin's body?  Didn't RJ say that the ability to channel goes with the soul?  So shouldn't Rand still be able to channel?  I guess maybe Moridin got burned out during the confrontation with the Dark One, but again, wouldn't Rand be able to channel as long as Rand didn't get burned out?  (I guess the answer would be that maybe Rand got burned out too?)  And if it's correct that Rand and/or Moridin got burned out, then wouldn't it be possible for Rand to be Healed, so that he could channel again?  (In fact, I would assume that Elayne or Aviendha could Heal him, if they learned the technique from Nynaeve.

 

After reading the whole thread, there are only three things I feel like I can add. Lots of good info, well worth the 45 pages.

 

In response to the above, as others have said, Rand seems to have been burned out. This makes perfect sense--it is clear from a POV from Moiraine in New Spring that I just read (her first POV, Chapter 2, I believe), that someone who is stilled can sense the One Power but cannot touch it, but that someone who has been burned out cannot sense the power at all. I believe the Setalle Anan a'dam incident referred to this as well. Rand's condition is exactly what we would expect someone who has been burned out to be (Real Power weirdness aside). The bond survived Rand's burning out either because Elayne "owns" the bond (in that case the warder being burned out doesn't effect it at all), or because of the other bond voodoo she did to include Min, which probably applied to Rand as well, or both.

 

Damer Flinn Healed some Aes Sedai who got severed from Rand breaking the shield at Dumai's Wells. I cannot recall if these Aes Sedai were burned out or stilled from this, but if they were burned out and he Healed them, then it would stand to reason that Rand could be Healed and be able to channel the One Power. If they were just stilled, then I'm not sure we know if burning out can be Healed or not. 

 

However, Rand seemed pretty excited about not being able to channel, so it's doubtful he would want to be Healed, unless it's to live longer.

 

The second thing is, I wasn't bothered at all by Rand riding away at the end. I expected him to ride away. He needed to get out of there--he is, for all intents and purposes, Moridin. He's one of the Forsaken; Nae'blis, one of the most evil people to ever live. He deserves to die for the countless deaths he's caused. I can't imagine that he would be treated very well.

 

I don't think convincing people that he's Rand would be that easy. WE know it's Rand, but a Lightfollower might find it easier to believe that sometime before Rand died, Moridin snatched some memories and assumed the bond. Pevara and Androl have some memory swapping going on. Who knows what might happen when you get your flows all linked up with the Dragon Reborn and mess with the Dark One? Thereafter Moridin creepily (but smartly) sends warm and loving thoughts to Aviendha, Min, and Elyane, yet is otherwise clearly stark raving mad; little seals floating about in his eyes, talking about body swaps, and lighting little fires with his mind. Memory planting and weird bond trickiness are all stuff we've seen in the series. The Light could just as easily believe that as a body swap.

 

So Rand trying to explain away the body swap seems a bit problematic to me. Much better to sneak away and lay low for a while. They're even probably going to look for him; and heads will roll for letting him escape. I knew the body swap was coming, and I kept wondering how he was going to get out of there as Moridin without being noticed. Not to mention the Dragon's Peace needs him to be dead.

 

Lastly, just a quick comparison of the final moments we see of Lews Therin vs. the final moments we see of Rand al'Thor.

 

At beginning of The Eye of the World, Lews Therin has gone mad and destroyed the world. In healing him, Ishamael gives him his life back. Lews Therin "awakes" and sees himself alive, and his family dead. He killed them. He goes away. He takes in the One Power in massive quantities. He leaves behind a huge mountain. He kills himself, thinking of those he loved.

 

Contrast that with...

 

At the end of A Memory of Light, Rand has survived madness and saved the world. Moridin, willing or not, gives Rand his life back. Rand awakes and sees himself dead, and his family alive. He kept them alive. He goes away. The One Power is gone, a relief. He leaves behind an empty tent. He lives, thinking of those he loved. And has a smoke.

 

Beginning and end. Opposite, yet the same. Pain, selfishness, a mountain, a legacy of fear and dread, vs. joy, selflessness, nothing, a legacy of peace and hope. Very striking to me.

 

That's all I have to add. I greatly enjoyed this thread.

 

Really enjoyed reading this post, hadn't thought of the ending/beginning balance thing in that way before, Cheers x

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@hondo,

i am absolutely sure that in the future rand and his three lovers will find a way to be together,

at least partially.

aviendha,elayne,min and rand share too much love,respect,trust and six (well,not yet) children

between them just to let this amazing four way love affair fade away.

my biggest problem with the ending lies elsewhere,the fact that tam and nynaeve were left in the

dark,unaware of the real situation with rand.

my heart went out for tam when he stood near the pyre,torch in hand,tears in his eyes,saying goodbye

to his son,his only family,not knowing that rand is alive and well only a short distance away.

same with nynaeve,from winter heart onwards,(barring a short stint at the white tower),she was always

with rand,she cared deeply for him and was one of his staunchest supporters.

in my opinion,both of them,tam and nynaeve, deserved better than the way they were treated in the epilogue.

Agreed, felt really ripped off for them, but in my imaginings of what may have come after, Rand would have gone to see them and spend time and explained it all to Tam and Nyneave, and some of the other characters. He just needed to get out of there at this point, and needed at least some of his loved ones to grieve for him at his funeral otherwise it would not be very convincing as a fake death, already bad enough that his girls are not seeming. sad he is gone

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@sn33k3rs,

"i really believe it was either elayne or aviendha(channeling),rand "thought" of his

pipe being lit and it was."

ok,back to the pipe thing again,i swear,robert jordan is hovering over all of us

randlanders and laughing his head off....

are you alluding to rand's bond with his three girls?because if you do,the bond doesn't

work like that,even rand cannot use the bond to transmit a specific request to light his

pipe,the bond does not give rand telepathic abilities.

when rand returned to tear(after his viens of gold epiphany)min could sense that he was

apprehensive about something,but she could not tell what was causing rand so much distress,

not until she saw tam standing on the steps.

post last battle,the three girls could sense that rand was alive and getting better "min nodded,

feeling the pulsing of the bond in the back of her mind.it grew stronger each moment."

they could pinpoint his location,after all rand was just a short distance away,and they probably

could sense how extremely happy he was.

It doesn't have anything to do with telepathy.  The girls were watching him.  They saw him take out his pipe.  They saw him raise his hand, then look at the pipe with a look of resigned acceptance.  They're not dumb, either of them (but sounds like ELayne to me) could have guessed what happened and lit his pipe for him.

 

I think he was left with the ability to bend the pattern to his will, I don't think the girls lit it for him, I think he got beyond the usual restrictions and rules of the world.

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@raggamuffin swagger,

"i think he was left with the ability to bend the pattern to his will,

i don't think the girls lit it for him,i think he got beyond the usual

restrictions and rules of the world".

i agree.

rand lit his pipe on his own,without outside help.

as mentioned previously,during the last battle,rand almost certainly gained

new powers, i.e. he learned to actually "channel'the pattern's threads for

his own purposes.

in my opinion,rand used his new ability to change the outcome of lan's sword

fight with demandred.

"he saw this,over and over,in the pattern arrayed about him.

rand walked through eons and ages,his hand passing through ribbons of the pattern's light".

 

on a side note,the first time i read how rand lit his pipe,i had hoped that he would heal

aviendha's legs on his way out .oh well.

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@jack of the shadows

Yay! A reply! Yeah, it would have been nice if he had sorted Aviendha out on his way, but maybe he can help her later on? I keep wishing there was a prologue booklet being written, just to get a teeny bit of insight into what happens after, Brandon if you bother reading all this......I'd buy it straight away.

On the other hand, maybe having lost the use of her legs will help Aviendha to be a better wise one, and not mourn the loss of her Far Dareis Mai status, Although I did think she had largely come to terms with that transition anyway.

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@raggamuffin swagger(what a wonderful name),

i am planning to write a response to your alivia post,

i just need a few days to sort things out.

i still find the whole alivia business quite baffling hahaha.

(so you'll have another reply from me lol)

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@raggamuffin swagger,specutations about alivia helping rand die part one,

didn't you finf it odd that laman's sword wasn't cremated alongside the

dragon reborn's body?well,let me explain:

post last battle,in order to heal "rand",nynaeve had to undress and clean him

first,(his clothes were saturated with blood),tossing laman's sword out of her way.

it is entirely possible that when it was decided to move the dragon reborn's body

to the funeral pyre,laman's sword was simply ignored or forgotten,so all alivia had

to do was wait until the sickbay tent was empty,take the sword from wherever it was

and put it on a pile of clothes near rand.

unfortunately,i do have two problems with this scenario:

1.the dragon reborn was accorded a full military funeral,(rand did notice it immediately

"moridin,he thought.he's being cremated with full honors as the dragon reborn"),after all,

the dragon reborn was champion of light,and died a warrior's death,so i did find it improbable

that nynaeve or moiraine let alone lan, would forget or ignore something so highlly symbolic

like a true heron-marked sword.

2.the million dollar question,how did alivia know about the body swap?let's face it,everything

points to the fact that she already knew about it(the money,clothes,horse,lit candle) but how?

in your post you wrote:"i don't thing she was acting blindly,thinking she was helping the other

man escape.i reckon that min,rand,nynaeve and moiraine worked this out and told her..."

well,more about alivia in part two(coming soon)...a few solutions.

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Regarding Alivia, I think she must have been told what to do offscreen, similarly, Min working out the flaw in Callandor (also happening offscreen). However I'm pretty sure Nyn didn't know, at least she didn't know Rand was alive at the end

Edited by BFG
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