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Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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@Finnnssss

 

I'm talking about his powers after understanding the pattern during his confrontation with the DO at SG(pipe lighting). We have always been given a clear definition of how being ta'veren works and it certainly doesn't fall into that category. Ta'veren are a tool of the pattern, not the other way around. As for what was going on during his Dark Rand period the authors stated flat out he was responsible for food rotting etc.

 

 

Yeah, I doubt we will ever get a straight answer on that one.

Most likely, it's one of things RJ wanted to leave up in the air.

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in my opinion,growing apples and trees and lighting a pipe are two separate issues.

let's assume that rand has "the voice" talent,and he can use it at will,not just some

random happenstances here and there.

rand certainly used it to his advantage in ebou dar(he used it more like a shock

tactic than a gleeman awesomeness).

to light his pipe,rand used his mind and his will,not his voice.

The whole voice thing somehwhat fits the pattern of his "tricks" that we see thought the last couple books. Actually having an item of power at Maradon, listening for heartbeats with DFs, using the voice to accentuate growing to grow aid in how his power is perceived, and his trying to overawe with his age claims which Moiraine calls him on to a sheepish response.

 

Also yes they are certainly separate issues.

Edited by Suttree
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when rand met tuon,he was shielded by a damane,but still managed to regenerate

grass,leaves and flowers.

i understand that some talents are unrelated to the one: power/true power, e.g.

dreamwalking or sniffing(hurin).

my question:rand's ability to grow and regenerate things is because he is the

dragon reborn and one with the land,or because he controls the talent of growing?

rand was quietly singing during the whole awesome display of growing,so the song

(probably any song) is just a way of "channeling" the growing?

The reason that the flowers were growing around rand was because although the DO was having a negative influence on the pattern, so the wheel needed to balance out the bubbles of evil with bubbles of good through rand

Think its pretty clear Rand was intentionally making it look that way, but was using his Voice to make things grow. Mat heard him singing in Altara when plants were growing all around him confronting Tuon.

 

We're told from Rand's own perspective that it is both.  The Pattern has an effect around him to "fix" the imbalance the Dark One made.  Then Rand sometimes uses tricks to exaggerate this effect when it suits his purposes.

 

Pgs 226-227, he explains the whole pattern balance to Elayne, then we are told from his perspective: "Well, some other tricks helped on occasion, but he didn't mention them."

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Ta'veren effect causes an equal amount of good/bad. The DR being one with the land is something else entirely. We saw when he was Dark Rand that he was causing food to rot etc. That was tied to his state of mind.

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i returned to the padan fain's arc to read elan tedronai post(i like reading his thoughts).

to my surprise,i found out that more than half of the posts there has nothing to do with

padan fain and everything to do with rand's lololol.

padan fain was a super villian in the earlier books,but in a memory of light he is just

a damp squib(sorry elan tedronai,i couldn't resist it).

can anyone remove those posts from padan fain's arc and bring them here?

Edited by jack of shadows
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Just something I thought over mulling over the series. 

 

Considering the effect of balefire that was fully revealed in aMoL. 

 

The scene in tGS when Moridin has a chat to Rand makes much more sense now. I remember people thinking it was strange that Moridin "accidentally" let slip that only Balefire would keep the DO from ressurecting the Forsaken. Now, I think that it was no accident, and Moridin actually knew exactly what he was doing. Considering the results of this revelation and Rand's actions, it was a good move by Moridin. 

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R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 

No I have to take the view the authors told us is correct.

You are good at ferreting out what the authors say, I give you that.

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.  So I don't want to harp on this.  I suggest you wait for the Encyclopedia for more evidence. 

 

At the end of AMOL, he is neither ta'avern or has any access to the OP or TP, yet lights the pipe. 

 

 

If rand could break a circle of thirteen why did he run away from taim's 13?

 

he barely pushed it back

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Just something I thought over mulling over the series. 

 

Considering the effect of balefire that was fully revealed in aMoL. 

 

The scene in tGS when Moridin has a chat to Rand makes much more sense now. I remember people thinking it was strange that Moridin "accidentally" let slip that only Balefire would keep the DO from ressurecting the Forsaken. Now, I think that it was no accident, and Moridin actually knew exactly what he was doing. Considering the results of this revelation and Rand's actions, it was a good move by Moridin. 

 

Good point. He was doing both the DO's business and his own.

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R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

 

That was due to the DR being one with the land.

Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 

No I have to take the view the authors told us is correct.

You are good at ferreting out what the authors say, I give you that.

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.  So I don't want to harp on this.  I suggest you wait for the Encyclopedia for more evidence. 

 

At the end of AMOL, he is neither ta'avern or has any access to the OP or TP, yet lights the pipe. 

 

 

If rand could break a circle of thirteen why did he run away from taim's 13?

 

he barely pushed it back

Because Taim's 13 weren't trying to shield him?

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Just something I thought over mulling over the series. 

 

Considering the effect of balefire that was fully revealed in aMoL. 

 

The scene in tGS when Moridin has a chat to Rand makes much more sense now. I remember people thinking it was strange that Moridin "accidentally" let slip that only Balefire would keep the DO from ressurecting the Forsaken. Now, I think that it was no accident, and Moridin actually knew exactly what he was doing. Considering the results of this revelation and Rand's actions, it was a good move by Moridin. 

I don't think I understand your hints. Can you elaborate?

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Just something I thought over mulling over the series. 

 

Considering the effect of balefire that was fully revealed in aMoL. 

 

The scene in tGS when Moridin has a chat to Rand makes much more sense now. I remember people thinking it was strange that Moridin "accidentally" let slip that only Balefire would keep the DO from ressurecting the Forsaken. Now, I think that it was no accident, and Moridin actually knew exactly what he was doing. Considering the results of this revelation and Rand's actions, it was a good move by Moridin. 

I don't think I understand your hints. Can you elaborate?

 

Moridin "let slip" that balefire was the only way to kill one of the Forsaken - otherwise they would just be transmigrated. 

 

People thought it was strange that Moridin gave Rand such an "advantage" and wondered if it was a slip up. 

 

However, considering that Balefire essentially does the DO's work - as we see with the black cracks of nothingness in aMoL - Moridin most likely was well aware of what he was saying. 

 

Put simply - he is encouraging Rand to use balefire to unravel the Pattern. We see the effects of his words on Rand in tGS - it leads to the balefiring of Semirhage via the TP, and the destruction of an entire keep which produced a large balescream, which definitely contributed to the unravelling of the Pattern. 

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Just something I thought over mulling over the series. 

 

Considering the effect of balefire that was fully revealed in aMoL. 

 

The scene in tGS when Moridin has a chat to Rand makes much more sense now. I remember people thinking it was strange that Moridin "accidentally" let slip that only Balefire would keep the DO from ressurecting the Forsaken. Now, I think that it was no accident, and Moridin actually knew exactly what he was doing. Considering the results of this revelation and Rand's actions, it was a good move by Moridin. 

I don't think I understand your hints. Can you elaborate?

 

Moridin "let slip" that balefire was the only way to kill one of the Forsaken - otherwise they would just be transmigrated. 

 

People thought it was strange that Moridin gave Rand such an "advantage" and wondered if it was a slip up. 

 

However, considering that Balefire essentially does the DO's work - as we see with the black cracks of nothingness in aMoL - Moridin most likely was well aware of what he was saying. 

 

Put simply - he is encouraging Rand to use balefire to unravel the Pattern. We see the effects of his words on Rand in tGS - it leads to the balefiring of Semirhage via the TP, and the destruction of an entire keep which produced a large balescream, which definitely contributed to the unravelling of the Pattern. 

Good call Barid, I had been thinking on that one for a while and the TGS balecream moment really drives it home. That was a big low point for Dark Rand right there.

Edited by Suttree
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R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.
Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 
No I have to take the view the authors told us is correct.
You are good at ferreting out what the authors say, I give you that.

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.  So I don't want to harp on this.  I suggest you wait for the Encyclopedia for more evidence. 

 

At the end of AMOL, he is neither ta'avern or has any access to the OP or TP, yet lights the pipe. 

 

 

If rand could break a circle of thirteen why did he run away from taim's 13?

 

he barely pushed it back

Because Taim's 13 weren't trying to shield him?

 

 

err they were

 

read it again pal

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Because Taim's 13 weren't trying to shield him?

 

err they were

 

read it again pal

Sorry, that was a serious question. I honestly didn't remember whether or not they were trying to shield him or kill him.

Edited by Master Ablar
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Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.

Proven right once again? In relation to what?

 

Most posters here and at TL agree about Brandon's band aid with the item of power at Maradon and about the "listening for the heart" trick.

 

Edit: Also I find it humorous how many times you have harped on Egwene not knowing what she is talking about, Rand not needing here for anything at TG etc. Yet now in this instance with the shield, in which there really is no way for her to know what she was talking about you act as if it's word of god.

 

@Finnnssss

 

I'm talking about his powers after understanding the pattern during his confrontation with the DO at SG(pipe lighting). We have always been given a clear definition of how being ta'veren works and it certainly doesn't fall into that category. Ta'veren are a tool of the pattern, not the other way around. As for what was going on during his Dark Rand period the authors stated flat out he was responsible for food rotting etc.

LOL@most posters

 

Care to explain why DF's shied away from Rand, ones who were not in line of sight went mad and at least one committed suicide? The Light in his mind? Come now.

:rolleyes:

 

You have a hard time admitting you are wrong and continue on, endlessly, as if that would make any difference.  

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R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.
Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 
No I have to take the view the authors told us is correct.
You are good at ferreting out what the authors say, I give you that.

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.  So I don't want to harp on this.  I suggest you wait for the Encyclopedia for more evidence. 

 

At the end of AMOL, he is neither ta'avern or has any access to the OP or TP, yet lights the pipe. 

 

 

If rand could break a circle of thirteen why did he run away from taim's 13?

 

he barely pushed it back

Because Taim's 13 weren't trying to shield him?

 

 

err they were

 

read it again pal

 

They were trying to shield him.  Of course they were also trying to kill him as well: "The other channelers wove to enchance the strom...it could strike Rand".

 

Now according to Rand's PoV, the "full circle" was led by a man.  We know there is no need for a man to be in charge, unless it is to extend a size of a circle. This circle may have been larger than 13.

 

If it was led by Taim, who is much stronger than any Aes Sedai, the Power of this full circle > one's faced at the WT.

 

Rand's PoV, "at least three dozen" Dreadlords attacking him, and very likely similar number of females.  With those kind of numbers, it would have been foolish of Taim to just have a circle of 13, given what Rand did at Maradon.

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R.

He made apples grow, trees grow etc,

That was due to the DR being one with the land.
Of course. You need to take a holistic view. 
No I have to take the view the authors told us is correct.
You are good at ferreting out what the authors say, I give you that.

 

Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.  So I don't want to harp on this.  I suggest you wait for the Encyclopedia for more evidence. 

 

At the end of AMOL, he is neither ta'avern or has any access to the OP or TP, yet lights the pipe. 

 

 

If rand could break a circle of thirteen why did he run away from taim's 13?

 

he barely pushed it back

Because Taim's 13 weren't trying to shield him?

 

 

err they were

 

read it again pal

 

They were trying to shield him.  Of course they were also trying to kill him as well: "The other channelers wove to enchance the strom...it could strike Rand".

 

Now according to Rand's PoV, the "full circle" was led by a man.  We know there is no need for a man to be in charge, unless it is to extend a size of a circle. This circle may have been larger than 13.

 

If it was led by Taim, who is much stronger than any Aes Sedai, the Power of this full circle > one's faced at the WT.

 

Rand's PoV, "at least three dozen" Dreadlords attacking him, and very likely similar number of females.  With those kind of numbers, it would have been foolish of Taim to just have a circle of 13, given what Rand did at Maradon.

 

 

 

Dude you just playing semantics at the moment.

 

it doesnt matter if it was thirteen or 72. the point is rand's alter ego lews therin telamon the dragon thought you cannot withstand a shield of 13. Whether it's led by taim or sorilea is besides the point.

 

The onus is on you to proof that rand could break through a circle of thirteen.

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@Entreri

 

Sorry to clarify by most I meant the posters that spend considerable time writing in depth theories. Dom, Davian 93, Terez etc. Now that doesn't make them correct, but it certainly shows you havent been proven right about anything(in fact I should we talk about who was right about the nature of the wheel and "last battle", or how about Rand needing Egwene despite your claims to the contrary ;). Especially when your point is contradicted by facts in AMol. Should be interesting to ask Brandon about.

Edited by Suttree
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Rand has been affecting the Pattern, from apples to trees.  It is not mere tricks via OP that made DF's shied away or kill themselves in TOM, Egwene stating he would break the 13 shield etc.  We had this discussion prior to AMOL and I was proven correct, once again.

Proven right once again? In relation to what?

 

Most posters here and at TL agree about Brandon's band aid with the item of power at Maradon and about the "listening for the heart" trick.

 

Edit: Also I find it humorous how many times you have harped on Egwene not knowing what she is talking about, Rand not needing here for anything at TG etc. Yet now in this instance with the shield, in which there really is no way for her to know what she was talking about you act as if it's word of god.

 

@Finnnssss

 

I'm talking about his powers after understanding the pattern during his confrontation with the DO at SG(pipe lighting). We have always been given a clear definition of how being ta'veren works and it certainly doesn't fall into that category. Ta'veren are a tool of the pattern, not the other way around. As for what was going on during his Dark Rand period the authors stated flat out he was responsible for food rotting etc.

LOL@most posters

 

Care to explain why DF's shied away from Rand, ones who were not in line of sight went mad and at least one committed suicide? The Light in his mind? Come now.

:rolleyes:

 

You have a hard time admitting you are wrong and continue on, endlessly, as if that would make any difference.  

 

Yeah, I def agree that there's more going on with Rand's "powers" than just holding saidin and listening for heartbeats.

I don't agree that Rand having the little fat man was a "band aid" for his display at Maradon. It was widely and immediately suspected he had an angreal we didn't know about right off the bat on that one.

 

I don't think anyone will argue that BS is RJ or finished the series as well as RJ would have himself but when does "The Witch hunt" end?

Not everything is a mistake, fan service or a band aid/cover up despite what some, who like to consider themselves far too often as "Hardcore fans",  like to call, what seems like everything, right out of the gate.

Edited by Finnssss
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Finnnssss give over mate. No one is knocking anything or debating quality here. RJ had "band aids" as well.

 

No, I'm not even talking about quality.

I'm talking about how fast people will jump on the "fan service/bandaid" bandwagon at the exclusion of any other possibility. Not even attempting to see another possibility at times.

 

And...Entreri bought up a good point, which I'm not sure if you're trying to ignore now, that Rand's "powers" made Torkumen's wife jump to her death and Torkumen himself to poke his own eyes out.

Then my point that calling the little fat man a "band aid" is lame at best and pure witch huntery at worst.

 

Am I reading your responses wrong? Because it sure looks like to me that you are attributing the Torkumen stuff to, for lack of a better word, a "Brandonism" and the explanation (the little fat man angreal ) of Rand's display at Maradon as a band aid.

Tell me that's not what you're saying.

Edited by Finnssss
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Damn it man you've caught us out. LoL

 

I know you do not want to enter in to a serious debate around mistakes and fan service/ breaking the 4th wall in these books. That is not one you will end up looking good in by any stretch of the imagination. Bottom line you have now managed to partially derail yet another thread with Lan esque crusade against anyone who dares offer a differing opinion. Flat out let it go.

 

Now no one is ignoring Torkumen and its been debated numerous times over. The truth is we don't know what happened there for certain. The fact remains all the "Jesus Rand" crowd pre AMoL scoffed that an item of power was used at Maradon and claimed up and down that Rands powers had ascended to a new OP strength level after DM. All that despite Brandon's claim to the contrary of Rand having powers up by KoD. Brandon as he is prone to do went crazy overboard in the descriptions of that battle. Hence adding an item of power after the fact.

Edited by Suttree
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Come on guys, lets not make this about the person and what they are or are not thinking/doing. 

 

Even if someone may be correct about another persons motivations (and I stress that I am NOT insinuating that anyone here is correct) this is not the place to debate it.

 

Lets keep it to what is being posted - and the validity of the statements, not the reasons that may or may not be behind the posts. 

 

If a statement can't be refuted or proved based on textual evidence or exterior sources, then it is simply a matter of opinion or interpretation. 

 

Of course, you can try to persuade the other poster that your interpretation is correct by using evidence and reasoning - but there is no need to say this is because of some particular bias - even if it is true. IF it is, then it will be clear to see - and you probably wont convince the person anyway. No good pointing it out - even though it is against the CoC- it wont change anyone's opinion, it will only get their back up. 

 

Besides, surely we can all agree to disagree on various points - it isn't that important to convince everyone you are right - people have different opinions on various subjects, it's all good! 

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Damn it man you've caught us out. LoL

 

I know you do not want to enter in to a serious debate around mistakes and fan service/ breaking the 4th wall in these books. That is not one you will end up looking good in by any stretch of the imagination. Bottom line you have now managed to partially derail yet another thread with Lan esque crusade against anyone who dares offer a differing opinion. Flat out let it go.

 

Now no one is ignoring Torkumen and its been debated numerous times over. The truth is we don't know what happened there for certain. The fact remains all the "Jesus Rand" crowd pre AMoL scoffed that an item of power was used at Maradon and claimed up and down that Rands powers had ascended to a new OP strength level after DM. All that despite Brandon's claim to the contrary of Rand having powers up by KoD. Brandon as he is prone to do went crazy overboard in the descriptions of that battle. Hence adding an item of power after the fact.

 

Nope, sorry, I'm not going to allow you deflect this on me. I didn't even mention quality!

Entreri brought up a good point and you answered with sentences that started "Most posters at TL feel...". His response that you were playing with semantics was quite apt IMO.

You didn't even actually give a reason why Entreri was mistaken, yet argued with him anyway.

Now, when I call you on the "Band aid" comment, you refer to what others believe and deflect in answering...C'mon!

We DO know for certain what happened with the power display at Maradon, he had an angreal, end of story!

We also know that the "holding sadin and listening for heartbeat changes" statement doesn't hold water for Torkumen.

And to add to this, did you forget about tEotW prologue already? Where LTT is able to sense whether there is anyone around for miles and miles?

Sorry, but there's more going on here than "Brandoisms" and "band aids".

 

THAT'S what I'm talking about, not quality!!!

That's what I would PREFER to talk about, the actual points of what happened, NOT whether they are "Brandonisms" or "band aids".

It's lame!

Edited by Finnssss
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Please see Barid's direction.

 

Not going to let you spin things and mischaracterize my posts(as you have been doing in quality threads over and over). We were discussing the actual points(and yes I did give reasons so stop lying) before you dove in with your drivel. You alone derailed this thread by latching on to a throwaway line and anyone who follows things can see that. This bizarre need to defend Brandon against every perceived slight needs to stop.

 

Again everyone can see how it started. The first part of your post was fine. This was not:
 

 

 

I don't think anyone will argue that BS is RJ or finished the series
as well as RJ would have himself but when does "The Witch hunt" end?


Not everything is a mistake, fan service or a band aid/cover up
despite what some, who like to consider themselves far too often as
"Hardcore fans",  like to call, what seems like everything, right out of
the gate.

*chuckle* wasn't talking about quality indeed. You compare the two authors and bring up mistakes and the like. How is that not talking about quality?

Edited by Suttree
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