Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Jason Denzel

Saddest moments in the book

Recommended Posts

Honestly, Bela was the saddest moment for me. I also kept expecting someone to notice one of the heroes of the horn riding Bela. Noal perhaps? I don't know if he was a new hero or one from days past. If he's new, he needs a horse, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, Bela was the saddest moment for me. I also kept expecting someone to notice one of the heroes of the horn riding Bela. Noal perhaps? I don't know if he was a new hero or one from days past. If he's new, he needs a horse, right?

 

Unfortunately that was specifically squashed by the text.  It says the horse Noal was riding was a shining white and had a golden saddle.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I felt like Egwene's death was obviously necessary. I actually inadvertently spoiled this for my wife when we were discussing what we thought would happen before the book came out. It was readily apparent to me that at least one of the non-Rand main characters was going to die, as it seemed too much to believe every one of them would survive the carnage. At that point, it becomes a question of which of them it would be.

 

Going off of information we had available before AMoL:

 

Mat is going to need to be the voice of reason for the Seanchan. He couldn't be killed unless Jordan was going to end the series with the Seanchan planning to take over everything after the chaos.

 

Perrin was destined to rule Saldaea with Faile. Min's early viewings of him showed a broken crown over his head, which is fairly clear. Faile's position in the ascention is also mentioned too many times unless she's going to be queen at the end of the series. He can't be killed or Min's viewing is false.

 

Min, Aviendha, and Elayne were fairly clearly going to be the three women standing over Rand's body, which means they couldn't die before Rand did. If Rand was going to die, it couldn't be until the battle was won. At that point killing a main character is pointless, so they're safe.

 

Lan is interesting to examine. Min's viewings that we're privy to are almost exclusively of the future. When she views Lan, she sees a baby in a cradle with a sword. We know that this is part of the ritual surrounding the heir to Malkier, so it's easy to assume she is seeing his past. Indeed, we know that WAS a part of Lan's past, but in light of her other viewings I've always believed this was to be his son. Nynaeve and Lan have been separated for weeks and she would almost certainly know if she was pregnant, so if Min really saw Lan's future instead of his past, they both live, since that's the only way the traditions of Malkier survive (plus the child has to be conceived).

 

Moiraine's death would be pointless. They killed her, then brought her back. Killing her again would be inane, when you could have had her die during the rescue attempt or not even BE rescued.

 

Thom Merrilin's survival is also nearly guaranteed by his marriage to Moiraine, since bringing her back from torture just to torture her again is something that is completely contrary to everything else in the series.

 

This leaves Egwene. I see a lot of people posting about how she was destined to be Amyrlin for a long time and preside over the aftermath of the Last Battle, but I never got that feeling at all. She's a war leader, and just like Churchill, the things that made her great in that position are things that wouldn't necessarily carry over to peace time. We know she's intensely uncomfortable with male channelers, which would be a MAJOR problem going forward, since it seems fairly clear that the White and Black towers are going to need to coexist, if not merge altogether. She could never in her life hope to accomplish anything else close to reuniting the Tower and leading it into the Last Battle, so all future glory is already going to be shadowed by past accomplishments. Even before knowing Gawyn was going to die, it was readily apparent their relationship would have been horrifically scarred by Gawyn's inability to truly accept being in her shadow. She would have had to step down to save that (which I don't think anyone could see happening) or deal with the pain of having a Warder and husband who couldn't deal with their respective positions. Regadless, Egwene's purpose was clearly evident from the time she became Amyrlin, and none of it had to do with anything coming afterward. Just like Rand, everything about her was focused on accomplishing this one great thing in front of her.

 

Her death was forshadowed every time she put something off to deal with after the Last Battle or referenced how long she would live. None of the other female channelers spend as much time focused on the future length of their lives. She was so sure she would survive, in fact is the only one of the major characters who WAS sure she would survive that long, that it stands out on rereads. (Elayne knew she would live long enough for the babies to be born, yes, but it's only to that extent.)

 

All of that is a longwinded (and offtopic, I admit) way of saying I wasn't remotely shocked or even really saddened by her death. It seemed preordained to me, in fact necessary for the overall narrative. That being said, my wife cried for an hour when she read it and still can't talk about it with me 3 weeks later. The most emotional scene for me was the scene with Elayne and her babies (I have an 18 month old daughter...I almost retched at the thought of the horror), but the saddest I felt was reaching the end of the book. Knowing that after years of counting the days until the next book's release are gone was painful. It brought me back to when the news of RJ's death came out and how I felt about the fact that he'd never see it finished.

 

I've read every previous book in this series six times. I don't know when I'll be able to do a reread again. There is something cathartic about the finish, but it also hurts in a way. It's the loss of the possibilities, the loss of wonder, of theorycrafting, of lurking on these forums reading crazy theories for the future...that's the saddest part. This series has been a part of my life for over a decade in a way that it won't ever be again. I wanted this book more than anything, but now I'm sad it's over, if that makes sense.

 

Sorry for the devolution of the post and its burgeoning novel length.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I

 

Lan is interesting to examine. Min's viewings that we're privy to are almost exclusively of the future. When she views Lan, she sees a baby in a cradle with a sword. We know that this is part of the ritual surrounding the heir to Malkier, so it's easy to assume she is seeing his past. Indeed, we know that WAS a part of Lan's past, but in light of her other viewings I've always believed this was to be his son. Nynaeve and Lan have been separated for weeks and she would almost certainly know if she was pregnant, so if Min really saw Lan's future instead of his past, they both live, since that's the only way the traditions of Malkier survive (plus the child has to be conceived).

 

Inseed Mins viewings are always about the future. That has been confirmed.

 

As for Egwene curious if you could provide some examples of what you are talking about. There was talk if her being a great Amyrlin and she certainly was planning to reform the WT but I don't recall her having various personnel thoughts about surviving for a long time. Would like to check out a few that led to a pattern of foreshadowing being established on this one. Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lan is interesting to examine. Min's viewings that we're privy to are almost exclusively of the future. When she views Lan, she sees a baby in a cradle with a sword. We know that this is part of the ritual surrounding the heir to Malkier, so it's easy to assume she is seeing his past. Indeed, we know that WAS a part of Lan's past, but in light of her other viewings I've always believed this was to be his son. Nynaeve and Lan have been separated for weeks and she would almost certainly know if she was pregnant, so if Min really saw Lan's future instead of his past, they both live, since that's the only way the traditions of Malkier survive (plus the child has to be conceived).

 

Lan's parents swore the oath in his name and gave him the sword because Lan was the only candidate to the throne expected to survive the fall of Malkier, so Lan and Nynaeve will not do the same with their child unless they end up in similar circumstances. Normally, Malkieri kings are elected; Cowin Gemallan "never forgot that two men laying a different color on the Crowning Stone would have set him on the throne instead." As for the viewing, I'll just repost what I wrote on Theoryland earlier:

 

 

I think the viewing of a baby with a sword simply refers to the oath sworn in Lan's name when he was a child: "To stand against the Shadow so long as iron is hard and stone abides. To defend the Malkieri while one drop of blood remains. To avenge what cannot be defended." The oath is that of the King of Malkier, but Lan has never claimed that title before ToM. Some of it was also fulfilled literally—AMoL begins with Bayrd noticing that their iron tent spikes had gone soft. Iron is no longer hard, like in Lan's oath. So Min's viewing was about a future event even though it showed a scene from Lan's past.

 

The seven ruined towers probably refer to Lan and Nynaeve rebuilding Malkier. At the Salt Lake signing, Brandon said RJ's notes contained "a small amount of information about the future of Malkier," which suggests it'll be rebuilt.

 

As for Egwene curious if you could provide some examples of what you are talking about. There was talk if her being a great Amyrlin and she certainly was planning to reform the WT but I don't recall her having various personnel thoughts about surviving for a long time. Would like to check out a few that led to a pattern of foreshadowing being established on this one. Thanks.

 

KoD:

 

 

The bird-like sister [Nisao] gave a sudden, brief laugh. “Do you realize she will be the longest sitting Amyrlin in history? No one will ever live long enough to top her unless she chooses to step down early.”

 

AMoL:

 

“I plan to live centuries,” Egwene hissed. “I will watch your empire crumble, Fortuona. I will watch it with joy.”
Edited by sleepinghour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks sleeping, those are two good ones! I recall the Egwene one from AMoL but didn't remember her expressing the sentiment very often before that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Honestly, Bela was the saddest moment for me. I also kept expecting someone to notice one of the heroes of the horn riding Bela. Noal perhaps? I don't know if he was a new hero or one from days past. If he's new, he needs a horse, right?

 

Unfortunately that was specifically squashed by the text.  It says the horse Noal was riding was a shining white and had a golden saddle.  

Yeah, I was just expecting/hoping while I was reading. It would have been a nice touch. If any animal deserved to be bound to the Horn, I'd say Bela would be it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

That said, I was expecting one of the Emond's Fielders to die, but I was

banking on Perrin, given the prophecy at the end of Towers of Midnight.

(What did that even mean, now?)

If you mean the 'broken wolf', that was Hopper.

Light, sorry. I accidentally reported you. I did not mean to, just clicked random button trying to reply. Thank you for the information, sorry again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eggy's death: not because she died, it seemed right, but because she seemed to be in the best position to try to heal the world after the last battle. Even with the seanchan, she was a connection to Mat and Min. Cads has a connection to Min but not to Mat.

 

Bela: not because of her as a character, but because I hoped rand would ride away with her if he survived or tam would if rand actually died. Full circle, and it would have made the ending even sadder

 

Perrin looking for Faile: I would have liked to see the wolves actively help him look for her, but it doesn't ruin the scene for me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As many have stated, Bela. My husband actually laughed at how mad I got about her dying.

 

The saddest part that really bothers me is Tam lighting the funeral pyre. It was a sad scene, well written. But what bothers me about it is this-it seemed that Tam did not know that Rand survived. It was obvious and stated that the three girls knew, and were acting so off that people commented about it. But nothing in Tam's demeanor conveyed that he was acting. Now, yes, logically I know that one day Rand will go visit his father, they'll have a moment, but probably a ways down the road. But assuming that, and letting Tam think that his son is dead, and light his pyre?! That's not right. I adored Tam in this book and that ending was terribly sad.

 

 

As for Gawyn and Egwene...I was kinda ok with both of them dying. They individually acted arrogantly. Gawyn being arrogant in his strength and desire for glory (completely ignoring all his years of Prince of the Sword and Warder training!). Egwene being arrogant in her knowledge, thinking that the title of Amyrlin gives her the right to dictate without question. Yes she was an excellent leader, she accomplished massive things. But she never once asked Rand why he felt the need to break the seals. Here is someone with knowledge that you should be scrambling to acquire, but you immediately assume that you know more than him. Being strong doesn't mean being controlling. I know many woman liked Egwene but she personally bothered me as a woman. I actually came to appreciate Nynaeve so much more as the series progressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With such a long and deep story, there is many sad moments in the final chapter. Surprisingly enough, one of my least favorite characters throughout most of the series turns out to have the most powerful ending for me. When Egwene goes out and fights Taim, suffering from Gawain's loss, as well as exhaustion, and then dying a heroic, yet simple, and wonderfully underplayed, heart wrenching death brought me to near sobbing. 

 

When they burned Rand's old body, and Elayne, Min, and Aviendha just standing there, while he ends up just walking away. When I first finished the book, I was furious, thinking that the end was unfitting for the character, but now, weeks later and having started reading again from EOTW, I think that although not what Rand deserves for an ending in my mind, it is a fitting, happy-sad ending that gives your imagination room to soar. 

 

When Siuan dies, I feel as if the backbone of what the Aes Sedai started to become, died, and that the WoT world lost a great character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But she never once asked Rand why he felt the need to break the seals. Here is someone with knowledge that you should be scrambling to acquire, but you immediately assume that you know more than him. Being strong doesn't mean being controlling. I know many woman liked Egwene but she personally bothered me as a woman. Nynaeve so much more as the series progressed.

Egwene tried to discuss it and Rand refused. He withheld info on purpose and antagonized her to get the reaction he did. Regardless for all Rands knowledge he still needed Min to find the key answer for him and Egwene's research and final order on when to break the seals was as crucial as anything else. It was her duty as Amyrlin to question why after that first meeting in ToM.

 

They both needed to listen to each other. Egwene needed to be convinced the seals actually had to be broken and Rand had to be convinced to wait for the right time. That was a big part of Moiraines role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With such a long and deep story, there is many sad moments in the final chapter. Surprisingly enough, one of my least favorite characters throughout most of the series turns out to have the most powerful ending for me. When Egwene goes out and fights Taim, suffering from Gawain's loss, as well as exhaustion, and then dying a heroic, yet simple, and wonderfully underplayed, heart wrenching death brought me to near sobbing. 

 

When they burned Rand's old body, and Elayne, Min, and Aviendha just standing there, while he ends up just walking away. When I first finished the book, I was furious, thinking that the end was unfitting for the character, but now, weeks later and having started reading again from EOTW, I think that although not what Rand deserves for an ending in my mind, it is a fitting, happy-sad ending that gives your imagination room to soar. 

 

When Siuan dies, I feel as if the backbone of what the Aes Sedai started to become, died, and that the WoT world lost a great character.

I agree about Siuan. She did not need to die and the way and how of it disappointed me greatly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The saddest moment for me was when Hopper died.  Both in the real world and again to end his soaring soul.  Yeah, Egg died too, but at least she will be reborn.  Alas Hopper!  In case the point was missed, I love dogs and cry a bit inside whenever a tv show or movie decides to kill one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

With such a long and deep story, there is many sad moments in the final chapter. Surprisingly enough, one of my least favorite characters throughout most of the series turns out to have the most powerful ending for me. When Egwene goes out and fights Taim, suffering from Gawain's loss, as well as exhaustion, and then dying a heroic, yet simple, and wonderfully underplayed, heart wrenching death brought me to near sobbing. 

 

When they burned Rand's old body, and Elayne, Min, and Aviendha just standing there, while he ends up just walking away. When I first finished the book, I was furious, thinking that the end was unfitting for the character, but now, weeks later and having started reading again from EOTW, I think that although not what Rand deserves for an ending in my mind, it is a fitting, happy-sad ending that gives your imagination room to soar. 

 

When Siuan dies, I feel as if the backbone of what the Aes Sedai started to become, died, and that the WoT world lost a great character.

I agree about Siuan. She did not need to die and the way and how of it disappointed me greatly.

I feel the way you do in that she "did not need to die", but by the same token I think that I was that much more invested in the story once her death hit me. As a major secondary character, subconsciously during my first reading (consciously during latter readings), I easily accepted her death as one who (exactly like Egwene) gave her own life to forward the goals of the Light. It was only later that I questioned her death. Now, after 3 re-reads including aMoL, I accept it as the only possible outcome for her character. Suian was not a woman of half measures or partial victories, and she would have viewed the end of aMoL as many readers do, a partial victory.  She was not a woman whose experience could span Ages, much like Egewene (even Suian says that they are too much alike). It is much better that she and Gareth be reborn and experience a life that they can share,during an era that they both understand.

 

Personally, I think Suian died as a way to kill off Bryne (who some say "is more a symbol of the Throne of Andor than the Queen" because he has served 4 different Queens [yes, I know the text says 3 queens, but he answers to Elyane during the LB which brings the total to 4]), but that's just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But she never once asked Rand why he felt the need to break the seals. Here is someone with knowledge that you should be scrambling to acquire, but you immediately assume that you know more than him. Being strong doesn't mean being controlling. I know many woman liked Egwene but she personally bothered me as a woman. Nynaeve so much more as the series progressed.

Egwene tried to discuss it and Rand refused. He withheld info on purpose and antagonized her to get the reaction he did. Regardless for all Rands knowledge he still needed Min to find the key answer for him and Egwene's research and final order on when to break the seals was as crucial as anything else. It was her duty as Amyrlin to question why after that first meeting in ToM.

They both needed to listen to each other. Egwene needed to be convinced the seals actually had to be broken and Rand had to be convinced to wait for the right time. That was a big part of Moiraines role.

Rand was certainly stubborn but Egwene was equally so. Rand withholding information in ToM was certainly a move, but as Faile noted what he needed to do to get everyone on one side and signing his Peace. I can see how that would put one on the defense but shouldn't the Amyrlin be better able to bring people around to her way then berating their ideas? Egwene shared her research with Elayne even saying that there may be a time to break the seals, but not at the start of the Last Battle, that she had the duty to choose the moment. But when talking to Rand she immediately goes on the defense, only stating the argument against breaking them altogether, never bringing up that he may be right in breaking them, just wrong about the timing. It is her duty to question, but she stubbornly controls, even Moraine had to get her to admit she had a dream with the seals being broken. She knows it is a possibilty but denies it due to the manner of it being presented, is that really mature respectful move? Instead of demanding respect why not earn it? Moraine was obviously necessary for both Rand and Egwene to relent. I just dislike how Egwene claims Rand is so stubborn and "wool-headed" yet acts the same herself. I rather liked when he called her a brat! I think it is good they never married, imagine the fights! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

With such a long and deep story, there is many sad moments in the final chapter. Surprisingly enough, one of my least favorite characters throughout most of the series turns out to have the most powerful ending for me. When Egwene goes out and fights Taim, suffering from Gawain's loss, as well as exhaustion, and then dying a heroic, yet simple, and wonderfully underplayed, heart wrenching death brought me to near sobbing. 

 

When they burned Rand's old body, and Elayne, Min, and Aviendha just standing there, while he ends up just walking away. When I first finished the book, I was furious, thinking that the end was unfitting for the character, but now, weeks later and having started reading again from EOTW, I think that although not what Rand deserves for an ending in my mind, it is a fitting, happy-sad ending that gives your imagination room to soar. 

 

When Siuan dies, I feel as if the backbone of what the Aes Sedai started to become, died, and that the WoT world lost a great character.

I agree about Siuan. She did not need to die and the way and how of it disappointed me greatly.

I feel the way you do in that she "did not need to die", but by the same token I think that I was that much more invested in the story once her death hit me. As a major secondary character, subconsciously during my first reading (consciously during latter readings), I easily accepted her death as one who (exactly like Egwene) gave her own life to forward the goals of the Light. It was only later that I questioned her death. Now, after 3 re-reads including aMoL, I accept it as the only possible outcome for her character. Suian was not a woman of half measures or partial victories, and she would have viewed the end of aMoL as many readers do, a partial victory.  She was not a woman whose experience could span Ages, much like Egewene (even Suian says that they are too much alike). It is much better that she and Gareth be reborn and experience a life that they can share,during an era that they both understand.

 

Personally, I think Suian died as a way to kill off Bryne (who some say "is more a symbol of the Throne of Andor than the Queen" because he has served 4 different Queens [yes, I know the text says 3 queens, but he answers to Elyane during the LB which brings the total to 4]), but that's just my opinion.

 

Siuan's death was neither heroic or needed, IMO.  A sentence and she was gone.  I think she would have survived well with Gareth and that she accepted an alternative life with him, not the one she had planned as the most powerful woman in the world.  She was adaptable to any circumstance and that is one of the things that endeared her to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although Siuan's death was OMG sad, for me, it was just a partial scene... when Olver starts to see that everyone he loves leaving him, abandoning him, and he is all alone. That was gut-wrenching for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saddest moment for me was seeing Cadsuane, not only survive, but succeed Egwene as Amyrlin.

 

Despite her lofty status as a "legend", the woman was totally useless when the heat was finally turned on. She couldn't even defeat Graendal with Amys and Aviendha's aid. Had it not been for the courage of the latter, I'm sure Graendal would have had the old hag bending knee to her –or worse– in no time. Alas, no such luck.

 

We're talking about a character here that not even the Dragon Reborn cared about, as he made her know all too well during their last conversation. And that's taking into consideration that Rand was very compassionate to all of the people who followed him. IMO, it should've been Moiraine who became the next Amyrlin, w/o second thought.

Edited by Darth Krewl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were quite a few sad moments in there. 

 

Personally, I was more sad at Suian's apparent death than her actual death. It was a much more shocking end, in my eyes. I had even been thinking beforehand that it would be good to see Suian and Moiraine meet up and just basically say "We did it!" and when that first attack happened I just felt horrible. Her actual death didn't affect me much because I knew it was happening, and I just felt that she was a bit of a fool to not heed Min. I wholeheartedly expected to see her dead in that attack, and she did. Which took a lot of the sadness out of that.

 

Tam putting the torch on Rand's pyre. That was also really bad for me. I figured something would be happening with Moridin's body, but I guess the general occasion caught up to me, especially with Tam whispering "You did good". :(

 

I felt miserable for Perrin in his search at the end. Not because I am Faile's biggest fan, but because I could relate to Perrin for a lot of the series, and I could just sense the hopelessness he had, and that got to me.

 

Egwene's death didn't have that much of an effect at me, at first. I had always hoped she would make it, because she had such talent and she could do great things for the world as an Amyrlin, but I knew it wouldn't happen. With Gawyn's death I just sensed her going out in a blaze of glory. However, as I was reading towards the end, and I read past Nynaeve's sadness for having lost one of the original Emond's Fielders with Perrin, a thought hit me:

 

"Out of the 5 original Emond's Fielders, only one wanted to go.

 

And only one did."

 

Then I just felt as if I had been hit by a train, and that got to me something awful. It's the worst I've felt reading a book. I didn't like Egwene all that much, and I certainly didn't dislike her despite her questionable actions at times, but her death got to me much later than I expected, but it feels worse, somehow. Maybe it is because I could relate to Rand and Perrin at times during the story (mainly personality wise, but I drew a weird parallel in that the story covers just over two years, which is the same amount of time I have been reading the books) and it feels as if I've lost a sister, and damn, it hurts. 

 

 

 

 

I finished the book last night to 

 (and read the last words around the 8 minute mark), and that felt perfect to let all the emotions sink in, as I let the book stay open at the last page while I just sat and thought for a while.  Edited by Vieira151

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely Nynaeve at SG, post-battle, watching "Rand" die and feeling entirely helpless.  Then informing Perrin of Egwene's death and having her experience the heart wrenching misgiving that she wasn't there for her friend...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of the deaths hit pretty hard.

 

I did want to comment that I think a lot of the deaths were handled the way the were because it may have been RJ's intention that it be this way. I wonder if his service in the Vietnam war didn't make him want to impress upon us, that in war, death is not always a glorious reflection on the living. No matter how great a person was or how fantastic their deeds, war can deliver death quickly with no warning and no fanfare. A life reduced to a footnote.

 

Overall I really enjoyed AMOL. I have always been an animal lover and wished that Bela would have either been Rand's companion at the end or at least been shown as a steed for a Hero of the Horn. Her death was at least a great service to the Light. Otherwise I think the arcs were handled fine. I'm hoping the Encyclopedia helps us get some more closure on some of the characters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nynaeve feeling that she failed her friends was the most heartbreaking part for me. Probably also because there was so little of her in this book. She's on of my favourites so I missed some kickass 5-power action by her on the battlefield.

 

I don't know if this has been answered elsewhere, I've not come across it at least.

 

Do we know why Harriet wanted Bela dead?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It might just be me, but if found the scene when Rands introduces Min to Tam quite moving.

Its after he's fought his inner demons (so to speak) on Dragonmount and come back a man.

 

I was moved when he apologises to his father, and Tam forgives him without and question (like a good father).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...