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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Jason Denzel

Saddest moments in the book

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There were many moments in the book that choked me up. The worst was when I closed the book at the knowing that the wheel of time was at an end no more waiting, no more analyzing, and no more theories on how it will end. 17 years of dreaming. I guess it was our turn to wake from the dream

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I was stunned at the Cadsuane's death.

She didn't die. Thom threw his knife at a black sister disquised with the Power to look like Cadsuane.

First I put aside the Kindle thinking "wow, black Cads was unexpected, especially this late". Then I thought "well, maybe she wanted to check on Rand and Tom just was too cautious, situation required that, but she's dead now, that can't be reversed". Then I thought "no, there should be something else, she can't die" and continued reading. That still was probably most shocking moment for me.

 

How are you reading the book on your Kindle? I thought the ebook copy is out on April 8th. 

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Birgitte's death was harsh. I figured that something was going to happen to her, but her getting impaled with a sword and THEN beheaded was just harsh. It was heartbreaking to watch her lose all her memories, not knowing whether she was still tied to the Horn or not. I wasn't convinced that she was, and I cheered again when she reappeared with the Heroes. I still think it's odd that her and Gaidal were both reborn, but not in time for the Last Battle. 

 

I know her death seemed harsh, but don't you ever recall her saying "bad things happen when I hold a sword"? ;)

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#1 for me was Siuan's death.  I really liked Siuan and had always secretly hoped that Damer Flinn would find her and heal her to her former strength to fight in the Last Battle.

 

#2 Oddly enough, was Annoura's story of saving Galad and Berelain's slow realization that she had burned herself out to do it...and then realizing that MANY other AS would suffer the same fate, even if they survived the battle.

 

#3 Rhuarc getting taken by Graendal - followed closely by Avi hoping that Amys doesn't see who she had killed.

 

#4 Egwene's death.  I hadn't braced myself for any of the original Two Rivers folks to die.  It just seemed like they all had come into their own and we would get a scene like Mat/Rand discussing everything that had happened at the end.

 

#5 Birgitte and Elayne's parting.

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I agree with Vitak's well written post. I was really shocked by Egwene's death. Yes, it was noble and heroic, but I still get teary about it. Her character developed so much from the innocent (and bossy) girl from Two Rivers to the deep, caring, powerful, and intelligent woman by the end. I feel like I've lost a very dear friend (and her sweet and dependable horse, too!)

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Saddest:

***********

#1 Egwene's death.. She was my most favorite character throughout the whole series, even more so than Mat.

I planned on reading the last book again soon, but because of this, I won't. I will however, read the River of Souls when it's out

Days after finishing aMoL, I'm still sad about it.

 

It felt as bad, if not worse, as when Aeris got killed in FFVII.

 

#2 Rand's departure in the end. He could have atleast told the people close to him, he yet lived

Perrin, Mat, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Lan, Cadsuane and definitely Tam. (maybe swear them to secrecy?)

 

#3 Moiraine's presumed death when she fell through the doorframe Ter'angreal with Lanfear.

 

#4 Hopper's death in the wolfdream.

 

#5 Siuan & Bryne

 

#6 Bela's death. She was strong (like her master), she was all over the place (like her master) and she was unrightfully killed (like her master).

 

Happy-sad:

***************

#1 Rand's little "me, myself and I" moment on top of Dragonmount

 

#2 Logain under the influence of the turning up to when he got praised by the mother for saving her son and all the others. Her telling him she would send her son to the BT when he was of age in remembrance of what he did for them and people admitting they now saw channeling saidin as a talent / gift.

 

#3 Olver blowing the horn and being saved, not only by his all time idol, Jain Farstrider, but noticing that Jain was one of the heroes on top of that.

 

Horrified:

***********

I was disgusted and nauseous when I read the part about cutting out Elayne's babies

Edited by antrasith

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I was really upset to hear of Bashere and his wife's death! He was my favorite great captain by far.

 

Bela of course *sniff sniff she was always so strong when she was needed!

 

I wasnt as sad at Egwene's loss of life as for just the fact that she wouldnt be leading the tower to cohesive glory with the other channelers of the world. She's pretty much the only person who has had personal dealings with them all and could bring them together.

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I was really upset to hear of Bashere and his wife's death! He was my favorite great captain by far.

 

Bela of course *sniff sniff she was always so strong when she was needed!

 

I wasnt as sad at Egwene's loss of life as for just the fact that she wouldnt be leading the tower to cohesive glory with the other channelers of the world. She's pretty much the only person who has had personal dealings with them all and could bring them together.

 

I am sad that Eg won't be there to put Tuon in her place about leashing women as she did during their earlier discussion.  Tuon needs to be put in her place, publicly, over and over again about the leashing of human beings.

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There were many sad moments.  I wish I could say Egwene dying was one of them, but I was happy about that.  Everyone admires different things about sifferent characters, but I never saw the Egwene love.  It took me until The Gathering Storm to realize just how flawed she was, but now when I go back and reread I can see it from book 1.  She was arrogant to the extreme even when common sense should tell you that there are older, wiser people in the world than you are, she still insisted that she and she alone knew what was best for EVERYONE.  Her dealing with Rand in the last two books is undiluted, pure arrogance and pride.  You have what is basically Lews Therin who is hundreds of years older than you with more knowledge in his head telling you what needs to happen but you think your barely-more-than-twenty years knows more?  She was willing to ignore her dreams about the seals just to make sure that she was making all the decisions and not Rand.  She called herself fhe "steward of the land" during the Last Battle.  Really?  Who appointed her that title?  I don't know whether she was purposefully written that way or if her characterization was the only mistake in the whole book, but she was horrible.  She was a dictator.  If you want proof, just read how upset she was that Nynaeve was getting closer to Rand and supporting him.  She despised anyone who didn't agree with her views on things and forcefully tried to make it otherwise.  Nothing she ever did put the fate of the world as a primary concern.  it was all about establishing Tower dominance and as a result, personal dominance.  I fully believe that had Moiraine not been there, Egwene would have doomed the world in her own pride and desire for total control.  The tower Aes Sedai were insane for raising her Amyrlin Seat no matter what personal strength she had.  She listened to no one but herself and refused to ever consider that someone else might know more than she or better than she.  Her one moment of redemption came from allowing Mat to command her armies though I am surprised she didn't try to do it herself.  Saddest moment?  Not even close for me.

 

With that said, I was sad for Olver.  His blowing the horm and rescue were very sad, in a good way.

 

I really expected Bela to survive and was sad she didn't.

 

Lan battling Demandred.

 

Tam and Rand sparring

 

Rand meeting Moiraine at the Fields of Merrilor

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  It took me until The Gathering Storm to realize just how flawed she was, but now when I go back and reread I can see it from book 1.  She was arrogant to the extreme even when common sense should tell you that there are older, wiser people in the world than you are, she still insisted that she and she alone knew what was best for EVERYONE.

I really can't understand this vision of Egwene , it strike me as misogynistic in essence . Your interpretation of her opposition of Rand is based on you negating her title , position , knowledge , her many harsh trial and overall accomplishment . 

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I really didn't see Eg's death coming so it was one of the saddest for me. At that point I was fully prepped for main people to drop like flies so I think things could have been worse. Hopper's death earlier was rough, and I was getting ready to start bawling if he showed up with the horn-wolf heroes! Kind of glad he didn't, my Bf would have probably started laughing at me crying over a book. Worse than Eg's death, as others have said, was Rand's reaction, her voice in SG and as we'll Nynaeve at the end saying how she only wanted to protect her Two Rivers' peeps =..(

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  It took me until The Gathering Storm to realize just how flawed she was, but now when I go back and reread I can see it from book 1.  She was arrogant to the extreme even when common sense should tell you that there are older, wiser people in the world than you are, she still insisted that she and she alone knew what was best for EVERYONE.

I really can't understand this vision of Egwene , it strike me as misogynistic in essence . Your interpretation of her opposition of Rand is based on you negating her title , position , knowledge , her many harsh trial and overall accomplishment . 

I dont understand that you dont understand. Even if I do like Egwene because I think all her flaws are a result of her life and, though they have no excuse, I have to forgive her, I agree with synchxts 100%.

 

Egwene literally tells Lews Therin "she's been researching, reading old books kept in the Tower". WTF? Dude, you are speaking to the man that actually sealed the bore. He is telling you that shit isnt gonna work anymore. You have no experience, no knowledge of the matter whatsoever. You can discuss it, but you definitely cant believe you are in possession of the truth and of course you cant doom the world because of that. She is, as a matter of fact, a brat, at least in that scene. A scene that by the way I believe was one of the worst of the book. I was eager to witness the "Rand meets Moiraine" moment, and it felt as rushed as ridiculous was the previous: the end of the world, with a pregnant teen as commander, decided in a few pages? Dude... Also dialogues felt so unnatural...

Edited by LuisTherin

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  It took me until The Gathering Storm to realize just how flawed she was, but now when I go back and reread I can see it from book 1.  She was arrogant to the extreme even when common sense should tell you that there are older, wiser people in the world than you are, she still insisted that she and she alone knew what was best for EVERYONE.

I really can't understand this vision of Egwene , it strike me as misogynistic in essence . Your interpretation of her opposition of Rand is based on you negating her title , position , knowledge , her many harsh trial and overall accomplishment . 

I dont understand that you dont understand. Even if I do like Egwene because I think all her flaws are a result of her life and, though they have no excuse, I have to forgive her, I agree with synchxts 100%.

 

Egwene literally tells Lews Therin "she's been researching, reading old books kept in the Tower". WTF? Dude, you are speaking to the man that actually sealed the bore. He is telling you that shit isnt gonna work anymore. You have no experience, no knowledge of the matter whatsoever. You can discuss it, but you definitely cant believe you are in possession of the truth and of course you cant doom the world because of that. She is, as a matter of fact, a brat, at least in that scene. A scene that by the way I believe was one of the worst of the book. I was eager to witness the "Rand meets Moiraine" moment, and it felt as rushed as ridiculous was the previous: the end of the world, with a pregnant teen as commander, decided in a few pages? Dude... Also dialogues felt so unnatural...

I don't think this thread is the right place to have this debate . To me in this scene Egwene needs to put a strong front in face of Rand , because of his nature and his demand, she can't risk to be seen to favorable as is argument as this is a political discussion in an important meeting . Egwene as other see the flaw of Rand plans and point them out to him , mainly point she make are rational and good . He cannot be the leader of the war , the dragon peace is a bit flawed  as for the seal her point as some merit and I don't think she was ruling out the possibility of breaking them .

Our Pov as reader is not the same as the character , Egwene had good reason to doubt Rand sanity and, and her duty as Amyrlin put her in a difficult position , and Her opposition was mighty necessary for Rand plan to  improve .

Imagine for a second she had comply to his demand , not questioning his plan for a second , The dragon peace would perhaps had had the necessary improvement due to Aviendha and Elayne , but for the other demand ? Him being the leader of the war would have led to disaster , he could have been drawn out by Demandred or simply overwhelmed by the military concern , Egwene herself learned how demanding those where . Him breaking the fake seal lead also to possible disaster . 

While their might have been a better way to place and writes the scene  . Egwene is in her role and is good at it , someone compare their interaction with the way Saidin and Saidar work , and I think he was right .

Edited by nolirion

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Sad moment? Definitely Olver, where in he thinks "Why does everybody leave him alone"? And ofcourse the situation he was in when in he blows the horn.

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You have what is basically Lews Therin who is hundreds of years older than you with more knowledge in his head telling you what needs to happen but you think your barely-more-than-twenty years knows more?

Rand is not some infallible god/emperor. We know when he met with Egwene in TGS to discuss the seals he had no idea how to make it work based on his memories. All he knew was that he couldn't do it the same way. It took Herid Fel and Min to find the answers for him. Egwene up until that meeting had heard he was insane and had been commiting atrocities(slaughtering his own troops, leaving a city to starve because he couldn't use them as "tools", balefiring innocents while trying to take out Graendal). He then waltzes in, says he is breaking the seals and refuses to discuss it with Egwene despite her asking to. It is her duty at that point as Amyrlin to question his actions and would have been totally unrealistic if she didn't.

.  Nothing she ever did put the fate of the world as a primary concern.  it was all about establishing Tower dominance and as a result, personal dominance.

It is astonishing how some people let character bias get in the way of what actually happens in the books. We are literally hammered over the head with the pressure Egwene feels in reuniting the WT for the good of the world at TG. You can argue she has had a bit too much of the AS kool-aid(but it's realistic, they have been the main force against the shadow for 3,000 years and are the only reason anyone even remembers the DO) but to say it's all a personnel power grab is patently absurd. Just a few examples:

 

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

 

ToM

"All of this is secondary, for now. We need unity against the Shadow and the Seanchan. We have to—"

 

 

Was she going to suck herself dry as she fought this battle? She had chosen—or, would have chosen—the Green and not the Blue. The difference wasn't just that she liked the way the Greens stood up and fought; she thought that the Blues were too focused. Life was more complicated than a single cause. Life was about living. About dreaming, laughing and dancing.

Gawyn was in the Aes Sedai camp. She said that she'd chosen the Green for its aggressive determination—it was the Battle Ajah. But a more secret, more honest, part of herself admitted that Gawyn was a motivation for her decision as well. Among the Green Ajah, marrying one's Warder was common. Egwene would have Gawyn for her Warder. And her husband. She loved him. She would bond him. Those desires of her heart were less important than the fate of the world, true, but they were still important.

 

Sentiments like the above are repeated over and over again, your point above has zero support from the text.

  I fully believe that had Moiraine not been there, Egwene would have doomed the world in her own pride and desire for total control. 

Actually per the author we know that goes both ways. Rand had to be convinced to wait on breaking the seals just as much as Egwene had to be convinced it needed to be done.

 

Moiraine’s prophecied purpose during the Last Battle was to stop Egwene and Rand from going to The Last Battle separately instead of together.

They needed each other and without them both they would not have won.

 Saddest moment?  Not even close for me...

I really expected Bela to survive and was sad she didn't.

This really says all we need to know. 

 

Egwene literally tells Lews Therin "she's been researching, reading old books kept in the Tower". WTF?

Yes because the almighty Jesus Rand would never rely on someone from this age to find the answers for him in old books. :rolleyes: 

 

ToM

 

"I need you, Min."

 

"You have me. Stupid looby."

 

"Callandor," he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

 

Dude, you are speaking to the man that actually sealed the bore. He is telling you that shit isnt gonna work anymore. You have no experience, no knowledge of the matter whatsoever.

Of course she has no knowledge whatsoever, how absurd. It's not as if Egwene played a crucial role in defeating the DO by finding that piece of knowledge in old books which told everyone when to break the seals and gave the order for breaking them to Logain which allowed the DO to be seal...errr wait. Breaking the seals when Rand wanted to would have been disastrous.

 

Seriously both of you need to take off the Rand fanboi glasses for a second and look at what actually happened.

 

Edited by Suttree

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When Mellar tried to take Elayne's babies. I'm a mom. You don't do that.

I am a Man and I was horrified  at that moment  .

 

This. I literally stood up, put the book down and walked around going, "No, no, no, no, no!!!" for a bit before I was able to pick it back up and keep reading.

J

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I wonder if Egwene and Gawyn are the reincarnated spirits of Eldrene and Aemon?

 

Yes, I think so too! This was a theory of mine from a ways back in the books. I thought it rather confirmed by how Egwene died, and the weave she created that only killed channelers who had gone to the shadow. I'm surprised by people who think that the "anti-balefire" weave was ridiculous. Doesn't anybody else remember what happened when Eldrene died? She drew more power into herself than she could channel, and sent a weave out that killed all of the dreadlords. It's happened before.

J

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I think olver hiding in the rocks and the trollocs clawing at him while he was crying and in pain with blood dripping from him was heart wrenching. I kept expecting mat to come across him and save him but it never looked like he would, which was even more saddening. and then he blew the horn and noal saved him =')

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When Mellar tried to take Elayne's babies. I'm a mom. You don't do that.

I am a Man and I was horrified  at that moment  .

 

This. I literally stood up, put the book down and walked around going, "No, no, no, no, no!!!" for a bit before I was able to pick it back up and keep reading.

J

 

I wish it had happened. Not sure why. Too few meaningful losses among the protagonists? Wanted something shocking? Felt it would somehow be a better book if she (or perhaps some other main character) had been killed in an overly brutal manner?

 

I just know it was certainly one of the most intense scenes of the book and then it just sort of worked out and was meh

 

Was this the moment BS was talking about when he said he felt like he was channeling GRRM? I thought it might be the moment when Birgitte got beheaded, but then Mellar pulled out the knife and i thought: "nope, this is it". Was i right?

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I think olver hiding in the rocks and the trollocs clawing at him while he was crying and in pain with blood dripping from him was heart wrenching. I kept expecting mat to come across him and save him but it never looked like he would, which was even more saddening. and then he blew the horn and noal saved him =')

 

Olver hiding in the rocks (and I don't think hiding is a strong enough word) was the saddest for me.  Before aMoL, Olver talked the big talk about wanting to fight.  This was the same for the beginning of aMoL.  Then Olver was actually there and knew he was in over his head.  His interaction with Bela (in the Blight and Bela's dying scene) added to this as well.  Then the only thing in Olver's power that he could do was crawl into the rocks.  That hit me.

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You have what is basically Lews Therin who is hundreds of years older than you with more knowledge in his head telling you what needs to happen but you think your barely-more-than-twenty years knows more?

 

Let's put this into a little context...

 

- For thousand of years, men that could channel would go crazy.  Plain and simple, it was a given fact.  The population is taught this from an early age in stories and fables.

- You have an organization that helps protect the populous from these crazy men.  Even to the point that this organization has a 1/7th or 1/8th of its members actively hunting for these crazy men.

 

Ok so with those two points, I think the pattern is established that the entire society has a firm basis for not trusting men that can channel. 

 

- LT only exists in Rand's head.

- No one can "cure" Rand's madness.  Even if you could, do you think anyone would believe it.  If Nynaeve comes up to you and says she cured so-and-so's madness without any proof, how far do you believe it.  Sure I would trust want Ny said, but in the back of my head I would have doubts.

- No one can prove that Saidan is clean.  Much like the prior comment, you can take people's word fr it, but do you really believe it in the back of your mind.

 

No matter what Rand said or did, he is figthing against thousands of years of history.  Do you expect that in the matter of a few months, people are supposed to beileve/trust him?  Even more to the point, he was dark Rand just a month or two ago.

 

Personally, many of Egwene's (while she was Armylin and psuedo-Armylin) actions when dealing with Rand I felt were portrayed accurately when you realize that there was no proof that Rand (1) actually had LT's memories, (2) he wasn't mad, and (3) he wouldn't go crazy(ier) because Saidan was clean.

 

Sure we, as the readers, were privy to this information, but the other characters in the book were not.

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