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Luckers

Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

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That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's. 

Entreri, go back and read the first meeting with Moridin. It clearly states it was the heartbeat and Rand thinks on the tricks himself.
Actually Sutt it wasn't. I think that was Moridins thought but that doesn't make it fact. Rand didn't confirm it. I think it was more to show that Moridin truly didn't understand what he was dealing with.
Rand did later think on it. There were hints before in ToM and it was confirmed in AMoL. See Terez's post above as well.

Nope.

 

Rand however needs to get close the DF's and see their reaction to his Light.  So DF's can still hide amongst his followers, unless he checks them them all, like he did Weirmon and that woman. 

 

Someone can ask Brandon this. 

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That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's. 

Entreri, go back and read the first meeting with Moridin. It clearly states it was the heartbeat and Rand thinks on the tricks himself.
Actually Sutt it wasn't. I think that was Moridins thought but that doesn't make it fact. Rand didn't confirm it. I think it was more to show that Moridin truly didn't understand what he was dealing with.
Rand did later think on it. There were hints before in ToM and it was confirmed in AMoL. See Terez's post above as well.
Nope.

 

Rand however needs to get close the DF's and see their reaction to his Light.  So DF's can still hide amongst his followers, unless he checks them them all, like he did Weirmon and that woman. 

 

Someone can ask Brandon this. 

It would be a good question.

 

Bottom line though there have been hints(fans were clearly stating he didn't actually have the ability after ToM and it was a ruse), there is the Moridin claim, Rand thinks on it and Moiraine calls him out on another trick that he sheepishly admits.

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the things i really wanted to be in there but were not

 

1. loial addressing the stump and having his shining moment as he convinces the ogier to unite with humankind.

2. afterglow, there was no bloody afterglow.

I think that, between the way-forward ter'angreal; Min's vision of Logain's glory which no man had seen before (which hadn't happened yet at the end of the book, but which you could see the start of), Rand's vision in his battle with the Dark One, and all of the other prophecies, we have more than enough information to piece together what happens afterwards.

 

I never read Tolkien, but watching the last Lord of the Rings movie, the one thing that I absolutely could not stand is that the movie just would not end. It should have ended with the ring being destroyed. Then there was the seen with everybody bowing to the hobbits, and that was nice, but absolutely everything after that was superfluous bordering on obnoxious. It completely ruined the movie. I'm glad they didn't throw in a bunch of awfulness here like that.

You would have loathed the book then. It too, did not know when to end. They could have added an hour more of film if they held true to the book.

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That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's. 

Entreri, go back and read the first meeting with Moridin. It clearly states it was the heartbeat and Rand thinks on the tricks himself.
Actually Sutt it wasn't. I think that was Moridins thought but that doesn't make it fact. Rand didn't confirm it. I think it was more to show that Moridin truly didn't understand what he was dealing with.
Rand did later think on it. There were hints before in ToM and it was confirmed in AMoL. See Terez's post above as well.
Nope.

 

Rand however needs to get close the DF's and see their reaction to his Light.  So DF's can still hide amongst his followers, unless he checks them them all, like he did Weirmon and that woman. 

 

Someone can ask Brandon this. 

It would be a good question.

Bottom line though there have been hints(fans were clearly stating he didn't actually have the ability after ToM and it was a ruse), there is the Moridin claim, Rand thinks on it and Moiraine calls him out on another trick that he sheepishly admits.

You are drawing conclusions that aren't specifically stated. Rand does say that he has "other tricks" but it is never stated what they are. It's a good debate with evidence to back up both sides. It is clear that he has new abilities or powers post VoG. Whether that is due to his LTT knowledge or his " LIght abilities" is of course a great debate. On a similar note Suttree I've always enjoyed your insights and am interested in your thoughts about how he lit his pipe at the end?

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Did I miss something? Maybe I read too fast, but it seems every bad guy met his or her demise except Shaidar Haran, who was conspicuously absent.

he was an empty husk in the bore when Rand walked in he noticed the body 

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Seen nothing to indicate that Rand is not still ta'veren except for Perrin thinking it based on looking at a body that wasn't Rands any longer. So could the pipe not be ta'veren chance making it lite? He was surprised he even had it 

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Lone Ashaman- Check the glossary under Greandel's entry in ToM.

Well, that's one down, though did they ever have a scene in the book where that was mentioned?  I don't remember it.

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shaidar haran said she was responsible for 3 of the chosen dieing. messana, asmodean and arangar/osangar cant think which one at the moment

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The seanchan were intentionally left wide open and the damane thing was also intentionally left wide open as something for the Fourth Age to deal with it.  The Nakomi thing also bothers me though, and there are plenty of other things that were left wide open or unxplained entirely that should have been.

 

Honestly, it's not the lack of resolution that bothers me in this book as much as it is how poorly some of the resolution was written in and integrated.  Lanfear, Moridin, Alanna, Padan Fain, Darkhounds and Wolves, Moiraine, etc.  They all felt just dropped in and wrapped up in the least amount of effort possible just for the sake of resolution.  It really is terrible how casually "oh and there are darkhounds at shayol ghul now...and now padan fain and his mist is here..." some of these major plot points were finalized.

 

+1.  instead of hundreds of pages of rather repetitive  battle scenes I would have much preferred seeing more time  spent fleshing out  various plot points.

As for what's left unexplained. Alanna is not explained at all. Perhaps she will be in the River of Souls. Verin's letter to Galad is not explained at all. Nakomi is not explained at all (Luckers was right about her in his predictions). Talaan's story is unexplained.  How the seals were stolen was not explained.

Unless I missed it the DFs going mad at Maradon is not explained.  The light stuff in Rand's mind is unexplained. The channeling sickness before VoG and its abscence after VoG is not explained as far as I can tell.

Lots of things that happened in previous books are left unexplained too: the attack on Algarin's manor, who betrayed Egwene in CoT, possible balescreams that Faile and Perrin felt in KoD, Slayer's employer in WH and so on. A lot of it was clearly intentional to leave as theory fodder for the fans. That's ok for some things but definitely not for others (such as Nakomi or Alanna).

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How about the Eye of the World? What was its original purpose? What purpose did it actually serve, if it did serve any? The series is over but we still know nothing about it.

 

Also, is anyone making a list of these questions so someone can ask them at a Q&A session?

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Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

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The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened. I'm not sure how Moraine saved the world with her return. Min said Rand was doomed to fail without her. I mean her appearance at Merrilor was awesome, but from then on she was just part of a circle with Rand and Nynaeve and didn't do much. I can only assume that her saving the Accords of Merrilor from dissolving was her moment of glory. Logain's stepping over fake-Rand's corpse while laughing or whatever didn't really happen either.

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The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened.

It was more of a metaphorical resolution that happened during the last scene. Not well executed but that was a tough one. Who knos if RJ would have made it more literal.

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Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore.

 

The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened. I'm not sure how Moraine saved the world with her return. Min said Rand was doomed to fail without her. I mean her appearance at Merrilor was awesome, but from then on she was just part of a circle with Rand and Nynaeve and didn't do much. I can only assume that her saving the Accords of Merrilor from dissolving was her moment of glory. Logain's stepping over fake-Rand's corpse while laughing or whatever didn't really happen either.

Min's viewing of "three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it", WOs' dream of "you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see" and Nicola's Foretelling of "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.", they are all the same thing. And it is fulfilled with Rand's fake death and his three women knowing about it. You can easily say that does not satisfy you but you can't really say it is not fulfilled.

 

Agree about Moiraine, she didn't do much.

 

We saw the start of Logain's glory. It is not glory in war, that's actually one of the themes in the series. There is little glory to be found in battles. Logain now knows this.

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I definitely did. And it was very well done. Both his descent and his comeback.

 

I liked where his comeback went, but I still got the sense that he was seriously damaged and would have a hard time leading the Black Tower no matter their agenda.

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How about the Eye of the World? What was its original purpose? What purpose did it actually serve, if it did serve any? The series is over but we still know nothing about it.

 

Also, is anyone making a list of these questions so someone can ask them at a Q&A session?

Thought the eye was very clear once I got done reading EotW.

 

The Eye was a barrier to protect the Dragon banner, one of the seals and the Horn of Valere until it was time for them to surface and be used to save the pattern. The eye's second function was to act as a large source of untainted Saidin, something for Rand to be able to use in his initial and new battles while he was still learning the power.

 

While it could have been used for more, I find it a bit strange that everyone feels it had to have a deep secondary purpose.

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The concept that many Aes Sedai gave up their lives to make a massive well of pure Saidin just to protect a few objects seems absurd to me.

 

1 - the green man was set with the job of protecting it.  any male channeler could have drained the eye otherwise so it was hardly protecting anything

 

2 - there were other methods of protecting things.  stasis boxes for instance?  and they didnt require sacrifice.

 

3 - why "untainted" saidin?

 

Just doesnt all add up clearly.

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Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore.

 

>The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened. I'm not sure how Moraine saved the world with her return. Min said Rand was doomed to fail without her. I mean her appearance at Merrilor was awesome, but from then on she was just part of a circle with Rand and Nynaeve and didn't do much. I can only assume that her saving the Accords of Merrilor from dissolving was her moment of glory. Logain's stepping over fake-Rand's corpse while laughing or whatever didn't really happen either.

Min's viewing of "three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it", WOs' dream of "you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see" and Nicola's Foretelling of "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.", they are all the same thing. And it is fulfilled with Rand's fake death and his three women knowing about it. You can easily say that does not satisfy you but you can't really say it is not fulfilled.

 

Agree about Moiraine, she didn't do much.

 

We saw the start of Logain's glory. It is not glory in war, that's actually one of the themes in the series. There is little glory to be found in battles. Logain now knows this.

 

There is little glory through forcing your will on other , that's what Logain learned , he learned you didn't have to be the most powerful you just needed to do the right thing .

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How about the Eye of the World? What was its original purpose? What purpose did it actually serve, if it did serve any? The series is over but we still know nothing about it.

 

Also, is anyone making a list of these questions so someone can ask them at a Q&A session?

Thought the eye was very clear once I got done reading EotW.

 

The Eye was a barrier to protect the Dragon banner, one of the seals and the Horn of Valere until it was time for them to surface and be used to save the pattern. The eye's second function was to act as a large source of untainted Saidin, something for Rand to be able to use in his initial and new battles while he was still learning the power.

 

While it could have been used for more, I find it a bit strange that everyone feels it had to have a deep secondary purpose.

I am asking ONLY about the pure saidin reservoir. It's pretty obvious that the Horn, the Banner and the Seal were sent there to be protected. But why does Rand need untainted saidin? There is not enough saidin there for Rand to be able to learn channeling. It's drained pretty quickly.

 

It has to have a purpose because RJ didn't just throw random things around in his books. He was meticuluous in details.

 

 

 

Oh, by the way, I saw some people wondering how the Seals were stolen. When Rand opens himself to Mierin in his dreamshard, he thinks the DO already knows about his plans because he touched the TP. He probably knew where they were because of that.

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Given what we know now, doesn't it seem implausible that the Creator and the Dark One are equal? I know, I know, but...

 

First, the Dark One is imprisoned outside the pattern. Then, he is almost killed by Rand?

Why? They are equal. Creator is the Good force of the universe and DO is the Evil. Creator is not part of the Pattern either, it can be argued he is as much imprisoned as the Dark One. Because there really is no prison. Both are outside of the Pattern and cannot directly affect it if there is no Bore.

What you're saying is, the term 'prison' is somewhat of a misnomer. I could buy that.

 

I just have a hard time envisioning it being possible that Rand could destroy Shai'tan. Granted, he's obviously not omnipotent or omniscient. But we're talking creation ex nihilo here, and if Rand could destroy the Dark One then, given the right circumstances, he should be able to destroy the Creator. And that itself should not be possible.

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