Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

Recommended Posts

Am I the only one who thinks that Rand wasn't meant to have any "super powers"?  He was the male equivalent to Lanfear and Alivia.  He represented the peak of One Power ability, but was not very much stronger than Logain or Taim or Demandred themselves.  I always took it that most of his extra "strength" came from LTT's memories and training which didn't increase his raw strength by much but merely allowed him to weave faster, smarter, and in different ways.  A very clear advantage.


By the very end when he's actually fighting the DO it is clear that he is stepping outside the pattern and doing some unique things here, but I dont think he was meant to have any kind of miraculous or special powers prior to this point.  He was ta'averen and his ta'averen abilities manifested themselves at first through luck and then through the skies opening for him, etc as is explained in aMoL.  I feel like anyone could have walked up and stepped into the bore and stepped outside the pattern like Rand - they just would have been crushed by the DO immediately whereas Rand's soul had the strength, determination, and knowledge to fight back.  THAT was his super power; regular attributes that men and women possessed that Rand held up with because he was chosen for the job.

 

I actually feel like Brandon messed this up pretty significantly and showed Rand to appear beyond a normal mortal when in reality he was supposed to be entirely mortal.  We had no hints of any kind of Light powers or anything prior to Brandon taking over and it feels like his desire to show the newly sane Rand off as the majestic savior went overboard.  He was not supposed to have any weave of light surrounding his mind, he was not supposed to make darkfriends go insane watching him channel Light (wtf was him channeling Light even about??), and he was not supposed to be able to spot darkfriends with new amazing "Light Powers".  Hence all of the slight corrections in the last book.  It feels like the whole purpose of the story was to show that Rand WAS human and didn't have anything special about him - he just had responsibilities and took it like a man.  That was really a primary theme throughout the books.  And then Brandon took over and made him some kind of demi-god with "power levels" that could wipe out an entire army alone.

 

Anyone else feel this way about Rand and all his extra power in these last three books?  The more I dwell on this the more I feel like the whole situation with Rand and his "power" really got out of hand in these last couple books.

Edited by Mark D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I the only one who thinks that Rand wasn't meant to have any "super powers"?  He was the male equivalent to Lanfear and Alivia.  He represented the peak of One Power ability, but was not very much stronger than Logain or Taim or Demandred themselves.  I always took it that most of his extra "strength" came from LTT's memories and training which didn't increase his raw strength by much but merely allowed him to weave faster, smarter, and in different ways.  A very clear advantage.

 

By the very end when he's actually fighting the DO it is clear that he is stepping outside the pattern and doing some unique things here, but I dont think he was meant to have any kind of miraculous or special powers prior to this point.  He was ta'averen and his ta'averen abilities manifested themselves at first through luck and then through the skies opening for him, etc as is explained in aMoL.  I feel like anyone could have walked up and stepped into the bore and stepped outside the pattern like Rand - they just would have been crushed by the DO immediately whereas Rand's soul had the strength, determination, and knowledge to fight back.  THAT was his super power; regular attributes that men and women possessed that Rand held up with because he was chosen for the job.

 

I actually feel like Brandon messed this up pretty significantly and showed Rand to appear beyond a normal mortal when in reality he was supposed to be entirely mortal.  We had no hints of any kind of Light powers or anything prior to Brandon taking over and it feels like his desire to show the newly sane Rand off as the majestic savior went overboard.  He was not supposed to have any weave of light surrounding his mind, he was not supposed to make darkfriends go insane watching him channel Light (wtf was him channeling Light even about??), and he was not supposed to be able to spot darkfriends with new amazing "Light Powers".  Hence all of the slight corrections in the last book.  It feels like the whole purpose of the story was to show that Rand WAS human and didn't have anything special about him - he just had responsibilities and took it like a man.  That was really a primary theme throughout the books.  And then Brandon took over and made him some kind of demi-god with "power levels" that could wipe out an entire army alone.

 

Anyone else feel this way about Rand and all his extra power in these last three books?  The more I dwell on this the more I feel like the whole situation with Rand and his "power" really got out of hand in these last couple books.

Nah youre mistaken about BS. do you honestly think team jordan would have allowed brandon to deviate much from the ending that RJ had envisioned in his notes.

Edited by Callandora

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's. 

Entreri, go back and read the first meeting with Moridin. It clearly states it was the heartbeat and Rand thinks on the tricks himself. Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rand told Aviendha to watch out for Darkfriends among the people with her, which is yet another clue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's. 

Entreri, go back and read the first meeting with Moridin. It clearly states it was the heartbeat and Rand thinks on the tricks himself.

 

Actually Sutt it wasn't. I think that was Moridins thought but that doesn't make it fact. Rand didn't confirm it. I think it was more to show that Moridin truly didn't understand what he was dealing with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's. 

Entreri, go back and read the first meeting with Moridin. It clearly states it was the heartbeat and Rand thinks on the tricks himself.
Actually Sutt it wasn't. I think that was Moridins thought but that doesn't make it fact. Rand didn't confirm it. I think it was more to show that Moridin truly didn't understand what he was dealing with.
Rand did later think on it. There were hints before in ToM and it was confirmed in AMoL. See Terez's post above as well. Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What hints were there in ToM that he was using a trick to see the darkfriends and not some magical darkfriend vision?

Edited by Mark D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I miss something? Maybe I read too fast, but it seems every bad guy met his or her demise except Shaidar Haran, who was conspicuously absent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I miss something? Maybe I read too fast, but it seems every bad guy met his or her demise except Shaidar Haran, who was conspicuously absent.

We saw his body dead in a husk next to Moridin when Rand first enters the cave at SG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In all honesty, the biggest thing that stuck out to me was the lack of resolution on multiple characters (I'm looking at the Seanchan) and the sudden appearance and utter lack of resolution for Nakomi. Understand that she might be the Creator, but we don't know. She is literally not even mentioned other than, what, Chapter 1? Are you kidding me? We introduce a totally new ability for the Wise Women to use, and then poof! We don't know if it matters or not because we don't know if Tuon gets killed in this world or not!
I know it hints that it doesn't, seeing as the events were changed, but I simply do not like it. I hope either the Encyclopedia wraps things up more neatly, or there are more books forthcoming.
It's simply not okay to have the only real epilogue happen in a false universe where everything ends poorly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The seanchan were intentionally left wide open and the damane thing was also intentionally left wide open as something for the Fourth Age to deal with it.  The Nakomi thing also bothers me though, and there are plenty of other things that were left wide open or unxplained entirely that should have been.

 

Honestly, it's not the lack of resolution that bothers me in this book as much as it is how poorly some of the resolution was written in and integrated.  Lanfear, Moridin, Alanna, Padan Fain, Darkhounds and Wolves, Moiraine, etc.  They all felt just dropped in and wrapped up in the least amount of effort possible just for the sake of resolution.  It really is terrible how casually "oh and there are darkhounds at shayol ghul now...and now padan fain and his mist is here..." some of these major plot points were finalized.

Edited by Mark D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The seanchan were intentionally left wide open and the damane thing was also intentionally left wide open as something for the Fourth Age to deal with it.  The Nakomi thing also bothers me though, and there are plenty of other things that were left wide open or unxplained entirely that should have been.

 

Honestly, it's not the lack of resolution that bothers me in this book as much as it is how poorly some of the resolution was written in and integrated.  Lanfear, Moridin, Alanna, Padan Fain, Darkhounds and Wolves, Moiraine, etc.  They all felt just dropped in and wrapped up in the least amount of effort possible just for the sake of resolution.  It really is terrible how casually "oh and there are darkhounds at shayol ghul now...and now padan fain and his mist is here..." some of these major plot points were finalized.

 

The Darkhounds is as expected. The Darkhounds are a wolf issue, and the only other time it would have been logical to include them is when Demandred was commanding the Shadow's forces, but even then what would Mat have countered with? No, the Darkhound usage was appropriate. 

Lanfear, utter callousness and unswerving loyalty only to herself resulting in her death? Appropriate. Moridin, who many said exactly what would happen (I was included in this), and it did? We knew it was coming.

I will say that the only one that seemed out of place was the 'new' creature that Padan Fain was. Fain had been becoming less and less important since the 3rd book, so I wasn't surprised to not note him around much. No, only his one-wing angel form was odd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So then what was the meet my eyes crap about then.

 

I assume you are talking about Rand's Anti-Darkfriend Superpower? Moridin suggests its nothing more than a trick, Rand listening for a sped up heart when he held the Power. However, we have seen Darkfriends go mad simply from looking at Rand, without Rand interfering with them. We should conclude that his powers are a side-effect of his Dragoness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The seanchan were intentionally left wide open and the damane thing was also intentionally left wide open as something for the Fourth Age to deal with it.  The Nakomi thing also bothers me though, and there are plenty of other things that were left wide open or unxplained entirely that should have been.

 

Honestly, it's not the lack of resolution that bothers me in this book as much as it is how poorly some of the resolution was written in and integrated.  Lanfear, Moridin, Alanna, Padan Fain, Darkhounds and Wolves, Moiraine, etc.  They all felt just dropped in and wrapped up in the least amount of effort possible just for the sake of resolution.  It really is terrible how casually "oh and there are darkhounds at shayol ghul now...and now padan fain and his mist is here..." some of these major plot points were finalized.

 

The Darkhounds is as expected. The Darkhounds are a wolf issue, and the only other time it would have been logical to include them is when Demandred was commanding the Shadow's forces, but even then what would Mat have countered with? No, the Darkhound usage was appropriate. 

Lanfear, utter callousness and unswerving loyalty only to herself resulting in her death? Appropriate. Moridin, who many said exactly what would happen (I was included in this), and it did? We knew it was coming.

I will say that the only one that seemed out of place was the 'new' creature that Padan Fain was. Fain had been becoming less and less important since the 3rd book, so I wasn't surprised to not note him around much. No, only his one-wing angel form was odd.

 

My issue wasnt with the plots and how events turned out.  My issue was with the quality of how they were implemented into the whole story.  They felt casually dropped in with very little effort to integrate them into what was going on.  Moridin was built up to be the big bad guy of the entire series...and he is literally a nobody in this book.  It is entirely possible to have the same events occur but written in a way that didn't just casually toss Moridin out of the story entirely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

So then what was the meet my eyes crap about then.

 

I assume you are talking about Rand's Anti-Darkfriend Superpower? Moridin suggests its nothing more than a trick, Rand listening for a sped up heart when he held the Power. However, we have seen Darkfriends go mad simply from looking at Rand, without Rand interfering with them. We should conclude that his powers are a side-effect of his Dragoness.

The situation at Maradon was a good deal more than simply looking at him given what was going on at the time. Again Moridin calls him out and Rand later thinks on it in a way that makes it clear it was all a trick. There have been other hints sprinkled in as well. Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The situation at Maradon was a good deal more than simply looking at him given what was going on at the time. Again Moridin calls him out and Rand later thinks on it in a way that makes it clear it was all a trick. There have been other hints sprinkled in as well.

 

Yes, and no. For instance, Rand lighting his pipe at the end without Channeling, the whole body swap thing, Moridin not being omniscient. I agree, it certainly could be a trick. Rand may even believe it to be a trick, but keep in mind that Moridin was utterly convinced that Shai'tan was going to decreate everything and turn everything into a nothing, and this was wrong. The Dark One was going to do what he said he was going to do, which is to say, recreate the world in his image.

Therefore, Moridin is not, in fact, always correct. (He also guessed the Shadow would win.) As such, we should conclude that what Rand did was probably some sort of Uber-effect of his Dragoness.

As to the Maradon refutation, there has never been any other Darkfriend ever driven insane by anyone's actions channeling, and so Occam's Razor says that Rand was doing something different there, but from what we know he was not using any other weaves than the normal set, as such it is entirely reasonable to conclude that Rand has Superpowers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A problem is that because of the other characters lack of knowledge it becomes quite hard to tell what is a 'trick' and what is rand's "superpowers". When he speaks to elayne about his tavaraness he states he has other tricks up his sleeve, and when he speaks with tuon he seems to be singing (didn't LTT have the talent of singing?) the flora to life (maybe?) but tuon and co. can't tell what's going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Everyone:

 

I have been asked to move my topic out of Quality Discussion.   I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on Egwene's Weave-  "The Flame of Tar Valon."   Could these crystal columns have been what ultimately became of the Jenn Aiel?    Are the Crystal Columns in Rhuidean the Jenn?   Was this weave placed on the remnants of that entire clan? What do you think?

Edited by Traslyn1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I loved the book. Things that I would have liked more time spent on:

  • Epilogue. Yes, I know some of you hate the anti-climactic ending of Return of the King, but seeing as I spent nearly 20 years of my life wrapped up in this wonderful story, I'd have loved more closure. Not another hundred pages, maybe not even fifty. Just a little more. Tell me about Lan, Nynaeve, Galad, Thom and Moraine.
  • Speaking of Moraine, I had hoped to see more action involving her. After her helping Rand with the Accords of Merrilor , she doesn't really do much else.
  • Verin and Alanna. The letters, the secrets, etc.
  • Rand's harem: How did they know? When did they scheme this all out? How did the whole swap occur. Rand knew enough to have Alivia help him out. When oh when did the ladies get in on the plan?

There's more. I'll have to read and reread this to absorb it all. I laughed at times, my heart was in my throat at others, and there are probably a million things left unanswered that just don't come to mind yet, but my mind is still trying to take it all in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

So then what was the meet my eyes crap about then.

 

I assume you are talking about Rand's Anti-Darkfriend Superpower? Moridin suggests its nothing more than a trick, Rand listening for a sped up heart when he held the Power. However, we have seen Darkfriends go mad simply from looking at Rand, without Rand interfering with them. We should conclude that his powers are a side-effect of his Dragoness.

The situation at Maradon was a good deal more than simply looking at him given what was going on at the time. Again Moridin calls him out and Rand later thinks on it in a way that makes it clear it was all a trick. There have been other hints sprinkled in as well.

I dont want to beat this to death but :

 

....Near the end of the line, Weiramon kept glancing at Rand, then looking away. The tall man had thinning gray hear, his beard oiled to a point.

    Rand eventually reached him. "Meet my eyes, Weiramon," Rand said softly.

     "My lord Dragon, surely I am not worth to--"

     "Do it"

     Weiramon did so with an off difficulty. He looked as if he were gritting his teeth, his eyes watering.

 

..

 

     He sounded dazed. "That light... That terrible light."

 

I'm fine with this being a trick, but this specific trick is not described. If you want to say well he used the heartbeats thing + some other trick I'm fine with that. All sufficiently advanced science appears as magic to those who don't understand it right? But a lack of evidence of the specific trick makes me skeptical of what is going on or this is a bad retcon of something they weren't happy with how it was portrayed in the previous book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

  • Rand's harem: How did they know? When did they scheme this all out? How did the whole swap occur. Rand knew enough to have Alivia help him out. When oh when did the ladies get in on the plan?

 

No idea on how the thing actually occurred, but they all knew through the bond. They could feel him getting stronger and stronger through the bond. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally some people to talk about this book.  Before I start off, I wanted to say overall I loved the book.  Been looking forward to it for awhile.  One of the best scenes that will always stick in my mind is Page 530-531 when Androl said "Three thousand years ago the Lord Dragon created Dragonmount to hide his shame.  His rage still burns hot.  Today... I bring it to you, Your Majesty." then one of the weakest Channelers creates what even Logain says is a miracle and summons the very heart of a volcano to their enemy.

 

That said, I do have some issues that, at the end of the book, left me blinking and turning the page to see blankness.  A Memory of Light has 909 pages.  I wouldn't of minded if I had to read another hundred pages or so, even more.  I'm pretty sure I read an interview from Mr. Jordan saying(before he died, of course) it would be his last book in the series, even if you had to use a wheelbarrow to take it home.  I'm a fan of Brandon Sanderson, read the Mistborn series and The Way of Kings.  I think he did a great job on the additions and making one book into three, but I feel like there should of been more.

 

Some of the things off the top of my head that I wish were given more depth to during the book:

Egwene and Gawyn's marriage.  Were her parents there?  Morgase?  Elayne?  I know it was mentioned as a simple ceremony, but still, they had gateways, they could of taken the time to put in one of the small sections that became a custom out of this book.  As it is, I felt more for Bela's death than Gawyn.

 

Did anyone else see who the killer of Asmodean was?  I didn't catch it, and I thought that Brandon Sanderson said it would be in there since Mr. Jordan had planned on revealing it in the last book.

 

All the big readings from Min that they resolved at the end of the book by one liners.  I understand that Alivia helped Rand die, but could we actually see it?  Even if it were little flashbacks during whatever actually happened.  Rand asked for coins, and Alivia stole them.  Did he ask her before he even went to confront the Dark One, or after?

 

Anyone else notice the similarities between Galad and Rand becoming even more obvious(Sword masters, hands get removed by a Forsaken, each knows about each other) to Rand being reborn without a care of anything and no meeting of "Hey Bro"?  Ever since we found out about Rand's heritage and who his living relations were, I was looking forward to the final meeting.

 

The Tinkers!  They go looking all this time for their song, and who's singing lullabies to everyone but them?  Rand.  Who doesn't get their song and could help bring back the world to plentiful growth after the Last Battle?  The Tinkers.

 

Going back to the marriage situation.  I wouldn't of minded seeing Loial getting hitched.  Would of been nice to see an Ogier wedding, especially after however many countless times Loial talked about the possibility of it.

 

The Sharans. I had to actually go and look them up since they were so obscure to this point.  Didn't Mr. Jordan give most of the facts about them in his encyclopedia?  I would have thought that they would have at least been referenced in Aviendha's future viewing, at least some sort of foretelling of it.  They did have a major play in the Last Battle.  It would of at least been nice to learn a little bit of them, see some more interaction from them.

 

As the post has gone pretty long, and I'm hopefully not overstepping my bounds by posting all of this stuff, I'll sum up the rest of my stuff right away.  Wished we could of seen more of Thom.  Padan Fain seemed to been forgotten until the very end.  Maybe a paragraph here or there throughout the book to lead up to another looming threat.

 

That's all I can think of, if I'm wrong in some of these areas, I'm sorry.  If this in anyway came off looking like I hated the book or the writing, I didn't mean it to.  I loved the book and I'm going to be rereading it again soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...