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Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

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I thought that the body swap was done in the pit.  When Rand came out carrying Moridin, it was Rand's soul in Moridin's body carrying out Rand's body (with Moridin's soul).

 

That was what Min figured out - many questions with a single solution.  The flaw to Callendor, how to do the body swap, how to have Alivia help him die, how he could die so that he could live.  That was my initial understanding anyway.

 

I will have to read it again.  I took a break for a week after the initial read.

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We see an agreement between Egwene and Fortuona whereby Seanchan people will be allowed to set up shop in Tar Valon to encourage people to want to be collared. This is only agreed to if Aes Sedai are allowed to do the same to any women who wear the collar. 

 

When Mog is collared the Sul'dam says "This one is not one of the Aes Sedai, so she's fair game" and sure enough, she gets collared. What happens when the Aes Sedai go visit the Seanchan in Ebou Dar or wherever and ask the damane there if they want to be freed?

 

We know the Mog is a very patient forsaken, and as she was spying on the command tent in the guise of a servant, then she's aware of the bargain and knows she only has to wait a while for freedom, something she is capable of doing (as seen before when she was held prisoner by Nyn).

 

So can we safely assume that Mog will become free in the near future? Will she trigger the war between the Seanchan and the Mainlanders?

 

I doubt it, but it is possible. The training she is about to go through will change her and probably remove any thoughts of being great from her mind. Further her sul'daam may force her to reveal all her secrets and teach them to all the others, which eventually will make her powers no better than anyone else. I also think that without the dark one and the true power available her ability to be powerful will be greatly diminished. She won't be able to find as many dark friends to join her as there is no great lord promising reward, only Mogheidin a member of the forsaken who as a group were defeated is just not that tempting anymore. If anything the finale here with her thinking about how she was going to be so grand with her plans simply ending by having an adam snapped around her neck just shows how weak she really is in this new age.

The fact that the Seanchan have Mogheidin is damned scary.  She was collared at Saliadar for several months at least and only escaped with the help of another Forsaken.  We know Mog isn't half as hard as she thinks she is, the probability that she'll break and give the utterly disgusting Seanchan tremendously powerful knowledge kind of casts a shadow over the book's near future.  

 

It's also disappointing (to me anyway) that Nynaeve didn't spot Mogheiden first and boot her around the place once more for old time's sake.  Nynaeve's combination of excitability, unearned self regard, complete lack of self knowledge, courage, and essential goodness made her a charming character, I wish we'd seen more of her in this book.

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2) The transfer happened in the tent, There is a line (from memory) that said that one body was dying and it was such a shame that it was the dragon and not the forsaken. 

Here is that line: "We don’t know why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn’t matter. We can’t Heal him either. They’re dying. Both of them."

 

You've left out an important piece of information. The full paragraph is as follows:

 

"We found them together," Flinn said. "Rand must have carried him out of the pit. We don't know why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn't matter. We can't Heal him either. They're dying. Both of them."

 

Damer makes an assumption that Rand *must* have carried him out of the pit. He wasn't there. Nynaeve could have been and she doesn't contradict him when he states this. But Damer saying the word "must" indicates it's speculation, probably related by Nynaeve or Moiraine or Thom who had the highest likelihood of of being there and "Shouting." as the first section of the Epilogue indicates happened before Rand went unconscious.

 

I think it most likely the transmigration either happened while Rand had control of Moridin via Callandor in the pit or it happened when the "random" Aiel woman told him that was what he must do, meaning he should move his soul to an empty vessel before his current body dies.

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We see an agreement between Egwene and Fortuona whereby Seanchan people will be allowed to set up shop in Tar Valon to encourage people to want to be collared. This is only agreed to if Aes Sedai are allowed to do the same to any women who wear the collar. 

 

When Mog is collared the Sul'dam says "This one is not one of the Aes Sedai, so she's fair game" and sure enough, she gets collared. What happens when the Aes Sedai go visit the Seanchan in Ebou Dar or wherever and ask the damane there if they want to be freed?

 

We know the Mog is a very patient forsaken, and as she was spying on the command tent in the guise of a servant, then she's aware of the bargain and knows she only has to wait a while for freedom, something she is capable of doing (as seen before when she was held prisoner by Nyn).

 

So can we safely assume that Mog will become free in the near future? Will she trigger the war between the Seanchan and the Mainlanders?

 

I doubt it, but it is possible. The training she is about to go through will change her and probably remove any thoughts of being great from her mind. Further her sul'daam may force her to reveal all her secrets and teach them to all the others, which eventually will make her powers no better than anyone else. I also think that without the dark one and the true power available her ability to be powerful will be greatly diminished. She won't be able to find as many dark friends to join her as there is no great lord promising reward, only Mogheidin a member of the forsaken who as a group were defeated is just not that tempting anymore. If anything the finale here with her thinking about how she was going to be so grand with her plans simply ending by having an adam snapped around her neck just shows how weak she really is in this new age.

 

 

The fact that the Seanchan have Mogheidin is damned scary.  She was collared at Saliadar for several months at least and only escaped with the help of another Forsaken.  We know Mog isn't half as hard as she thinks she is, the probability that she'll break and give the utterly disgusting Seanchan tremendously powerful knowledge kind of casts a shadow over the book's near future.  

 

It's also disappointing (to me anyway) that Nynaeve didn't spot Mogheiden first and boot her around the place once more for old time's sake.  Nynaeve's combination of excitability, unearned self regard, complete lack of self knowledge, courage, and essential goodness made her a charming character, I wish we'd seen more of her in this book.

 

 

 

What does Mog really know?

 

Wasn't she like a stock broker or something prior to the breaking?

 

Information is only useful in context. Sure, I know all about rifling...but I have no freakin clue how to turn iron to steel.

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Another character who didn't show up in the book that I had been expecting to is Berowin, the Kinswoman with the shielding talent. I always thought her "I could hold one of the Forsaken" comment when she was shielding Nynaeve in ACOS was foreshadowing, but then she ended up just never even re-appearing at all.

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Pfff... Moridin is my favourite character, and so I resent it that we are left in the dark about Moridin's role in the Last Battle. We can only speculate about this, I guess. Just like Rand, Moridin was frozen, but what was he doing during Rand's confrontation with the Dark One? My guess is that the Dark One needed Moridin to take the form he faced Rand in during their battle. It would seem that the Dark One, being forced to battle a human being, must find a form suitable for such a confrontation. Otherwise how should the Dark One, among other things, speak intelligibly to a human being?

 

Along such lines we can probably also explain why Shaidar Haran was introduced in the book: to make the Dark One's manifestation in the world plausible. We've seen on previous occaions where the speech of the Dark One appears in the world that Shaidar Haran is also present (when, for instance, Moghidien suffered the creation of her mindtrap).

 

(I posted this in the "No more RAFO" thread, so sorry for its multiple appearance. I just want it to reach wider audience.)

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I've wondered for years if the Shadowspawn would cease to exist after the Last Battle was fought. They hinted at this in A Memory of Light, but they never said whether or not Shadowspawn still existed. They also touched on a great question as well, if trollocs have souls, then whose souls are they?

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I've wondered for years if the Shadowspawn would cease to exist after the Last Battle was fought. They hinted at this in A Memory of Light, but they never said whether or not Shadowspawn still existed. They also touched on a great question as well, if trollocs have souls, then whose souls are they?

I believe RJ stated that Trollocs have their own, twisted souls that could never be human.  I suspect, based on the way the wheel works, they never were.

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I've wondered for years if the Shadowspawn would cease to exist after the Last Battle was fought. They hinted at this in A Memory of Light, but they never said whether or not Shadowspawn still existed. They also touched on a great question as well, if trollocs have souls, then whose souls are they?

I believe RJ stated that Trollocs have their own, twisted souls that could never be human.  I suspect, based on the way the wheel works, they never were.

 

 

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002 Question

How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

Robert Jordan

To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

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Interview: Dec 9th, 2002Question

How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

Robert Jordan

To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

 

 

I believe RJ stated that Trollocs have their own, twisted souls that could never be human.  I suspect, based on the way the wheel works, they never were.

 

So their souls could never be reborn to anything but a trolloc, but that still doesn't quite answer the question I had. I think it would be rather disturbing to find out they were the souls of normal people twisted and corrupted to suitable use in trollocs. It seems likely, since Aginor used living people to construct his monstrosities. It's not really an important question, but just one that stood out in my mind while reading aMoL.

 

Oh, and thanks for the quote, Suttree.

Edited by Lutrogale

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I just can't wait for the fan made chapter timeline for the 3 books into one, ala http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons

 

I know there's the timeline that shows events, but I can't wait to read AMOL as one giant ebook with TGS, TOM, and AMOL combined in the right time order.  I have the AMOL ebook already on my Kindle, hopefully someone like Terez will put together a nice cohesive chapter timeline for the final book. GRRM's Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons sucked horribly on their own, but when all the concurrent stories are put together in one book, man it's so much better. (relatively, it's still 1700 pages of nothing happening, food porn, and adolescent sex)

 

Edit: Please please please someone please do this. I feel Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount should have been 2/3rds in AMOL (If it was one book).

Edited by JustCharlie

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One minor thing I would have liked to see, would have been Lan's reaction when Mat told him that Jain Farstrider died clean.

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the things i really wanted to be in there but were not

 

1. loial addressing the stump and having his shining moment as he convinces the ogier to unite with humankind. 

2. afterglow, there was no bloody afterglow.

I dont have the books in front of me but in one of the last 3 i believe there is an excerpt of his speech at the beginning of the book, like before the prologue even. it is well written and at least there's something of it :)

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I just can't wait for the fan made chapter timeline for the 3 books into one, ala http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons

 

I know there's the timeline that shows events, but I can't wait to read AMOL as one giant ebook with TGS, TOM, and AMOL combined in the right time order.  I have the AMOL ebook already on my Kindle, hopefully someone like Terez will put together a nice cohesive chapter timeline for the final book. GRRM's Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons sucked horribly on their own, but when all the concurrent stories are put together in one book, man it's so much better. (relatively, it's still 1700 pages of nothing happening, food porn, and adolescent sex)

 

Edit: Please please please someone please do this. I feel Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount should have been 2/3rds in AMOL (If it was one book).

 

My first attempt at this is at http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/71766-tgs-and-tom-combined-timeline/?view=findpost&p=2377817. I was working on an second version in December, but haven't made much progress since then.

 

I'm not sure it changes much except for the Black Tower plotline. With those chapters interspersed with the TGS and TOM chapters, the rest of AMOL would end up more or less sequential.

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I have really four questions..at least initially.

 

(1) How did Olver end up with Faile's group? At the end of TOM we saw him heading into Camelyn with the rest of the Band to rescue the dragons. The next time he shows up, he's heading out of Tar Valon with Faile's caravan (along wiht Setalle). What gives here? How'd he end up away from the Band?

 

(2) How did Mat end up riding to Ebou Dar? He must have come back to Whitebridge with Tom and Moraine, but why did he decide to go to ED rather than re-join the Band and since he had access to Gatyeways, why didn't he just use a gateway to travel there? Riding makes no sense whatsoever.

 

(3) What happened to Theodrin? She was with Androl's group throughout most of the battle but then she just disapperaed. I'm puzzleed because Androl's group don't actually fight any trollocs or Taim's group of channelers. What they did do was act as the Light forces black ops unit (Stealing the discs, luring Mishriale's (sp?) group away from Talmanes and the dragons inot the stedding..things like that).. Their actions were critical, to be sure, but they didn't seem to actually do any front line fighting. Which raises the question, what happened to Theodorin?

 

 

(4) What happened to all the people who had been compelled by Greandal after she whacked herself?

 

Oh yeah, one final thing..Why didn't anyone think to try to heal the channelers who'd been turned? It would seem to me that stilling them would undo the affect of turning (At least that was what was implied by Lanfear) and since we no know that stilling can be reversed, why not try to heal one or two?

 

tud

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@Tud: I thought some of the Band had been sent with Faile to guard the caravans?  Wasn't their a scene where a couple of them are complaining about the fact that they are guarding supplies rather than fighting?  Not 100% sure, but this might explain why Olver was with them.  He probably insisted on being part of the LB and this was thought to be the safest place for him.

 

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but wasn't sure where else to post it.  Way back in EoTW Mins sees a vision of a babe in a cradle with a sword when she looks at the visions around Lan's head.  We know from RJ that all of Min's visions relate to the future so this can't be Lan.  Obviously, we don't see Lan having any babies at the LB, so I am unsure as to how this viewing could be fulfilled.  I had understood that the reason Lan had the oath sworn for him while he was still in the cradle was because it was a desperate situation, his parents were dead, etc.  Surely if Lan (and Nynaeve) have a child in the future then a) it wouldn't need to do any swearing of oaths on a sword until it was much older, and b) would it still need to swear the oath to fight against the Shadow after the LB?

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Rhienne, your recollection of the scene is correct. It was an exchange between Mandewin and Harnan which Faile overheard. My question regarding Ollver wasn't what he was doing there, but rather ,how'd he get there in the first place since the last time we saw him he ws heading into Camelyn with the rest of the Band. Where was he during the fighting to save the dragons?

 

As for Min's viewing in EOTW, that wasn't Lan's future she saw but rather his past..He was annointed Dia Shan in his crib and the sword of Malkieri Kings was given to him at the same time. Hence a cradle and a sword. If I recall correctly, it is a unique veiwing since all the others deal with future events.

 

tud

Edited by Tud

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Rhienne, your recollection of the scene is correct. It was an exchange between Mandewin and Harnan which Faile overheard. My question regarding Ollver wasn't what he was doing there, but rather ,how'd he get there in the first place since the last time we saw him he ws heading into Camelyn with the rest of the Band. Where was he during the fighting to save the dragons?

 

As for Min's viewing in EOTW, that wasn't Lan's future she saw but rather his past..He was annointed Dia Shan in his crib and the sword of Malkieri Kings was given to him at the same time. Hence a cradle and a sword. If I recall correctly, it is a unique veiwing since all the others deal with future events.

 

tud

Min sees only future.

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As for Min's viewing in EOTW, that wasn't Lan's future she saw but rather his past..He was annointed Dia Shan in his crib and the sword of Malkieri Kings was given to him at the same time. Hence a cradle and a sword. If I recall correctly, it is a unique veiwing since all the others deal with future events.

 

tud

 

 

 

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1998                                                           

 

MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim)                                                                                
  Slayer                                                                                       
Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the seven towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

                                            

   Robert Jordan                                            

                                           

Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.

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I didn't have the patience to read through all of the posts and see if anyone had actually came up with this idea before me, but maybe Rand was channeling the Creator's power when he lit his pipe, just like the Forsaken channel the Dark One's power (True Power)? Just a thought.

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I didn't have the patience to read through all of the posts and see if anyone had actually came up with this idea before me, but maybe Rand was channeling the Creator's power when he lit his pipe, just like the Forsaken channel the Dark One's power (True Power)? Just a thought.

 

probably not. you must be able to channel to access the True Power and I don't see why it would be different with the creator's power.

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On the subject of Alanna, if removing the bond is so simple (and the cavalier way Eqwene uses and removes her bond with the seanchan woman who's name escapes me makes it seem so) why did she wait so long to remove the bond with Rand?

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On the subject of Alanna, if removing the bond is so simple (and the cavalier way Eqwene uses and removes her bond with the seanchan woman who's name escapes me makes it seem so) why did she wait so long to remove the bond with Rand?

 

She didn't want to.

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