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Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

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Another thing that maybe I missed, but why is it bad to enter TAR in the flesh? All throughout the series everyone from the Wise Ones to Aes Sedai have said its bad, you lose a bit of yourself, etc etc. Yet when Perrin asked about it, he basically just got told, "because, it is." There seemed to be no real explanation as to why, and Perrin did it about a billion times later in close succession and he seems fine.

 

Is it just a stupid superstition potentially created by Forsaken during AOL and one of the "facts" that survived the Breaking, or is Perrin somehow immune due to him not being a channeler?

As I understand it, there are at least two reasons. First, you don't sleep when in TAR in the flesh, but the lack of sleep accumulates as sort of a sleep debt that you must repay afterwards, bringing you very close to death. Second, and more importantly, if you die when in TAR in the flesh, you are burned from the Pattern and can't be spun back in. This is why I believe the practice is referred to as "evil", much like most reactions to the use of balefire.

 

I have 2 problems with this even though it is explicitly stated in AMOL (and possibly in previous books) that entering in the flesh and then dying would burn your thread from the Pattern. Wasn't Moridin's goal with siding with the DO to not be reincarnated ever again? Why couldn't he just enter TAR and have someone kill him? Bam, problem solved. There were certainly enough candidates who wanted him dead amongst the Forsaken.

 

Also, it is generally assumed that all 3 battles between Rand and Ishamael occurred in TAR albeit in early bookisms. Since Rand chased Ishamael there at the end of TDR, couldn't it be argued they were both there in the flesh. If so, how was Ishamael brought back as Moridin when Rand finally killed him?

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 I'm not as deeply versed on the books as most on these forums, but the first thing I thought when MoriRand lights the pipe without One Power/True Power was Nakomi.  She creates things that Avi cannot sense with Saidar.  She is also noted as being ancient.  The biggest question is, how long will MoriRand live without being able to channel.  If he has become something new/different, perhaps forever?  It makes me believe Nakomi may be the last Dragon that needed to seal a bore and ended up having the same skills as MoriRand.

 

Mr. Jordan said that Dragons are not female. They are always male, and souls have a definite gender. See Aran'gar.

I've sort of considered the notion that perhaps Nakomi is the Creator's proxy, much like Shadar Haran was the DO's proxy. The Dragon is the Creator's champion, much like Moridin was the DO's champion. This idea not only maintains the underlying theme of balance (Creator/DO, Nakomi/Shadar Haran, Rand/Moridin) but it could offer an explanation as to how Nakomi is able to perform some of her magic. Yes, the Creator said that he would not directly interfere, which opens up the possibility to use a proxy or cat's paw. Nakomi showed up precisely when she needed to offer some advice that nudged Avi in the right direction. Nakomi didn't directly state anything - in fact, she hinted that she could not explain things further. It's certainly up for debate and yes - this is only my personal speculation, but it seems to fit better than trying to come up with a fantastic way that Nakomi=Verin. Which, I don't buy for a moment. 

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Another thing that maybe I missed, but why is it bad to enter TAR in the flesh? All throughout the series everyone from the Wise Ones to Aes Sedai have said its bad, you lose a bit of yourself, etc etc. Yet when Perrin asked about it, he basically just got told, "because, it is." There seemed to be no real explanation as to why, and Perrin did it about a billion times later in close succession and he seems fine.

 

Is it just a stupid superstition potentially created by Forsaken during AOL and one of the "facts" that survived the Breaking, or is Perrin somehow immune due to him not being a channeler?

As I understand it, there are at least two reasons. First, you don't sleep when in TAR in the flesh, but the lack of sleep accumulates as sort of a sleep debt that you must repay afterwards, bringing you very close to death. Second, and more importantly, if you die when in TAR in the flesh, you are burned from the Pattern and can't be spun back in. This is why I believe the practice is referred to as "evil", much like most reactions to the use of balefire.

 

I have 2 problems with this even though it is explicitly stated in AMOL (and possibly in previous books) that entering in the flesh and then dying would burn your thread from the Pattern. Wasn't Moridin's goal with siding with the DO to not be reincarnated ever again? Why couldn't he just enter TAR and have someone kill him? Bam, problem solved. There were certainly enough candidates who wanted him dead amongst the Forsaken.

 

Also, it is generally assumed that all 3 battles between Rand and Ishamael occurred in TAR albeit in early bookisms. Since Rand chased Ishamael there at the end of TDR, couldn't it be argued they were both there in the flesh. If so, how was Ishamael brought back as Moridin when Rand finally killed him?

If I remember right Ishy dies in the real world not the dream world.  And nothing saying if you die in the dream world the DO can't find your soul. Plus the Do can stuff your soul in another body whether you like it or not, so even if Ishy just let Rand kill him there is nothing saying the Do wouldn't stuff him in a body as punishment.

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Maybe I missed this in an earlier book, but did we ever get a definitive answer on who ordered the attack on Algarin's manor?

Moghedien.

 

That is far from a definitive answer, and I find it pretty unlikely. Moghedien was doing what she wanted in AMOL because she was basically off the hook; at the time of the attack on Algarin's, she was mindtrapped and under Moridin's thumb.

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Another thing that maybe I missed, but why is it bad to enter TAR in the flesh? All throughout the series everyone from the Wise Ones to Aes Sedai have said its bad, you lose a bit of yourself, etc etc. Yet when Perrin asked about it, he basically just got told, "because, it is." There seemed to be no real explanation as to why, and Perrin did it about a billion times later in close succession and he seems fine.

 

Is it just a stupid superstition potentially created by Forsaken during AOL and one of the "facts" that survived the Breaking, or is Perrin somehow immune due to him not being a channeler?

As I understand it, there are at least two reasons. First, you don't sleep when in TAR in the flesh, but the lack of sleep accumulates as sort of a sleep debt that you must repay afterwards, bringing you very close to death. Second, and more importantly, if you die when in TAR in the flesh, you are burned from the Pattern and can't be spun back in. This is why I believe the practice is referred to as "evil", much like most reactions to the use of balefire.

 

I have 2 problems with this even though it is explicitly stated in AMOL (and possibly in previous books) that entering in the flesh and then dying would burn your thread from the Pattern. Wasn't Moridin's goal with siding with the DO to not be reincarnated ever again? Why couldn't he just enter TAR and have someone kill him? Bam, problem solved. There were certainly enough candidates who wanted him dead amongst the Forsaken.

Also, it is generally assumed that all 3 battles between Rand and Ishamael occurred in TAR albeit in early bookisms. Since Rand chased Ishamael there at the end of TDR, couldn't it be argued they were both there in the flesh. If so, how was Ishamael brought back as Moridin when Rand finally killed him?

Only wolves and heroes killed there die forever and dreamers too. I read that quote somewhere. Now I gotta find it.

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I think the book left gaping holes,a lot of things unexplained, I hate books that tells me exactly what happened with everyone, and even though I'm dying to know what will happen to the Aiel and the seanchan, I apprciate being able to use my imagination to tell different scenarios , but then the book goes and answer questions we didn't need to know, like what happens with the horn, the boys not being ta'veren any more and such, I could have done without those explanations too!

 

what I really want to know, and I believe should have been there is :

 

 

1. how did the body swap occur? I don't mind the swap on it's own, but I feel it was just thrown out there like it's something natural.

 

 

2. who is Nakomi?

 

 

3. what's the deal with Shadar haran? OK, he is the DO avatar, why did he need it when he had moridin to command the other forsaken?and why kill him now?

 

 

4. where was Alana before? and why didn't Rand sense her?

 

 

5. why was moiraine brought back to life? and what where her 2 wishes, I always thought the 'to save the world part' was indication of a great role that she would play in the final battle, sure I liked how she convinced Rand & Egwene to do what they need to do, but I could see no reason it had to be her, that is, her trip to finnland only served to make Rand respect her more, nothing else.

 

 

These are things we should be told not left to theorize about, because they are major plot points.

Edited by hime

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I think the book left gaping holes,a lot of things unexplained, I hate books that tells me exactly what happened with everyone, and even though I'm dying to know what will happen to the Aiel and the seanchan, I apprciate being able to use my imagination to tell different scenarios , but then the book goes and answer questions we didn't need to know, like what happens with the horn, the boys not being ta'veren any more and such, I could have done without those explanations too!

 

what I really want to know, and I believe should have been there is :

 

 

1. how did the body swap occur? I don't mind the swap on it's own, but I feel it was just thrown out there like it's something natural.

 

 

2. who is Nakomi?

 

 

3. what's the deal with Shadar haran? OK, he is the DO avatar, why did he need it when he had moridin to command the other forsaken?and why kill him now?

 

 

4. where was Alana before? and why didn't Rand sense her?

 

 

5. why was moiraine brought back to life? and what where her 2 wishes, I always thought the 'to save the world part' was indication of a great role that she would play in the final battle, sure I liked how she convinced Rand & Egwene to do what they need to do, but I could see no reason it had to be her, that is, her trip to finnland only served to make Rand respect her more, nothing else.

 

 

These are things we should be told not left to theorize about, because they are major plot points.

1. I'm not too concerned about this.  It has something to do with them being linked from them "crossing the streams" with balefire.

 

2. I'm going to say that she was either a ghost or from the future.  Considering all the crazy things happening with the dead walking and such, this is quite possible.

 

3. Moridin is his own man.  He thinks and acts for himself.  Moridin doesn't have to do what the DO wants.  Shaidar Haran was the DO's avatar--totally controlled by the DO and being an extesion of the DO, totally an unequivovcally obediant. 

 

4.  I'd like to know this as well.  What was in Verin's letter to her?  Did she go directly to Shayol Ghul or was she somewhere else before?  Why Rand didn't sense her is a great question.  I never thought about that part of her being there.

 

5. I can live without knowing her other wishes.  I'm assuming it has something to do with winning the LB or perhaps Randing living through the LB.  I think Rand needed to see her to give him hope and remind him that all is not lost.  If you really dig deep into the characters,  the only 2 channelers that Rand really trusts (besides Elayne and Avienda) are Moiraine and Nynaeve.

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Where was Rand's mother? I kept thinking the DO would drag her out for real during their quality time together in the Bore.

I will assume you are asking a serious question because Tigraine/Shaiel, a runaway princess and Maiden of the Spear, most likely died on Dragonmount after giving birth to Rand.

 

Or . . . she wasn't quite dead, though the freezing temps and obvious blood loss from injuries and childbirth made it seem as though her heart had stopped to a young soldier, Tam Al Thor, and she was somehow later rescued by her Aiel comrades, healed on the spot, and brought back to the Waste to recover.  Later, when she was well enough to travel, even if she knew where to look for her baby, not even the White Tower could find him and they had much more info and resources than she would have had.  She could have eventually realized to whom she had given birth (foretelling, prophesy . . .) and how much the DO would want to use her against the Dragon Reborn, so she would have stayed hidden and adopted a new-but-ancient name.  Then, at the crucial moment, she somehow knows to go to Aviendha in order to save her adoptive people.  And maybe check out her son's Aiel wife as a bonus.

 

Kind of like how Verin had infiltrated the culture of the Black Ajah in order to do her part and help the forces of the Light at just the right time.  Interesting how the practical "magic" Nakomi uses in the tent with Aviendha has similarities to what Rand manifests after the Last Battle.  According to my looney theory, she couldn't help hanging around to be sure her son lived after his victory over the DO, even risking being seen.  It was almost like she would have been able to do something to help if the body-switch had not been accomplished.  

 

If I ever get to ask Brandon about this in person, I hope I get a yea or a nay.  He can't say RAFO anymore.

Edited by Princess of Pie

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Where was Rand's mother? I kept thinking the DO would drag her out for real during their quality time together in the Bore.

I will assume you are asking a serious question because Tigraine/Shaiel, a runaway princess and Maiden of the Spear, most likely died on Dragonmount after giving birth to Rand.

Paper was most likely referring to Kari al Thor as the DO already used her image against Rand once.

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1. how did the body swap occur? I don't mind the swap on it's own, but I feel it was just thrown out there like it's something natural.

 

I was underwhelmed with how the mechanics of the bodyswap was handled, but that being said whilst not common, soul movement--even transferral--is actually a relatively natural occurence in the Wheel of Time. Even excluding the Dark One and his powers (which we can't since the True Power was involved in forming the link between Rand and Moridin) there are a large number of similar occurences--dreamwalkers and wolves souls leave their body to touch the dream, the hedgehog ter'angreal used saidar to tear out a soul and seal it in the dream, Mordeth would have been able to tear out Fain's soul and place his own in were it not for the Dark One's touch upon him, and so forth.

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It was kind of obvious it was the Creator in EotW and aMoL

That is something that has been heavily debated for quite some time in all corners of the fandom.

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Where was Rand's mother? I kept thinking the DO would drag her out for real during their quality time together in the Bore.

I will assume you are asking a serious question because Tigraine/Shaiel, a runaway princess and Maiden of the Spear, most likely died on Dragonmount after giving birth to Rand.

...

I think he meant her spirit like what happened in early books (book 1 I think?).

 

 

I wanted to see Birgitte reborn as Birgitte Silversixshooters.

 

I would love that book.

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4. where was Alana before? and why didn't Rand sense her?

 

Rand sensed Alanna move to the North - but the indications are that although direction is easy to tell, distance is less so.  Additionally Alanna was 'pushed to the back' by the triple bonding, so he's been less aware of her since then.  I think their's a reference to her as he enters the tunnel - when he's aware that something happened to one of the girls, but 'bond distortion' made it difficult to tell which one.  I assume that when he entered the tunnel the DO became aware of him, Moridin made his first move re. Alanna and Rand felt it (need to reread tho, as I'm not sure when Alanna was stabbed, so may be wrong about sequence of events). 

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Maybe I missed this in an earlier book, but did we ever get a definitive answer on who ordered the attack on Algarin's manor?

Moghedien.

 

That is far from a definitive answer, and I find it pretty unlikely. Moghedien was doing what she wanted in AMOL because she was basically off the hook; at the time of the attack on Algarin's, she was mindtrapped and under Moridin's thumb.

Unless BS says straight out no one will know for sure.  But since is was someone pretending to be Sam and Mogi 's POV said how she always made sure she could imitate the chosen it seems a great chance it was her.  Since she was under moridin's control, it made it even more important that if she was going to do something she shouldn't of been she would need to hide what she was doing.  As we have seen in the last book both Mogi and Lanfear had tasks to do.  They weren't just sitting by his chair so they were out of sight for times.  Being midtrapped didn't mean Moridin knew your every action and thought. 

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Maybe I missed this in an earlier book, but did we ever get a definitive answer on who ordered the attack on Algarin's manor?

Moghedien.

 

That is far from a definitive answer, and I find it pretty unlikely. Moghedien was doing what she wanted in AMOL because she was basically off the hook; at the time of the attack on Algarin's, she was mindtrapped and under Moridin's thumb.

Unless BS says straight out no one will know for sure.  But since is was someone pretending to be Sam and Mogi 's POV said how she always made sure she could imitate the chosen it seems a great chance it was her.

 

Any of the other Forsaken could do the same, not to mention a few others. I don't think it's any more likely it was Moghedien than it was before.

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Maybe I missed this in an earlier book, but did we ever get a definitive answer on who ordered the attack on Algarin's manor?

Moghedien.

 

That is far from a definitive answer, and I find it pretty unlikely. Moghedien was doing what she wanted in AMOL because she was basically off the hook; at the time of the attack on Algarin's, she was mindtrapped and under Moridin's thumb.

Unless BS says straight out no one will know for sure.  But since is was someone pretending to be Sam and Mogi 's POV said how she always made sure she could imitate the chosen it seems a great chance it was her.

 

Any of the other Forsaken could do the same, not to mention a few others. I don't think it's any more likely it was Moghedien than it was before.

Except for the fact we have a POV saying how she made sure she could imitate other forsaken and no other POV from any other forsaken suggeting the imitate others.  I thin kthat was BS way of answering the who orded the trolloc raid without coming right out and saying it.  Sort of like how it was never said straight out Grendel kill Asmo but the hint was placed in TOM.

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Except for the fact we have a POV saying how she made sure she could imitate other forsaken and no other POV from any other forsaken suggeting the imitate others.  I thin kthat was BS way of answering the who orded the trolloc raid without coming right out and saying it.

 

If it is, then it's because he didn't actually know the answer and wanted to make something up. This scene is not evidence of anything, and I don't think Brandon was trying to make it that way.

 

Sort of like how it was never said straight out Grendel kill Asmo but the hint was placed in TOM.

 

It was said straight out, and the hints in TOM were strong ones, unlike the scene you're talking about which only says that Moghedien, like any of the other Forsaken, knows how to imitate other Forsaken. It's hardly a special skill.

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Except for the fact we have a POV saying how she made sure she could imitate other forsaken and no other POV from any other forsaken suggeting the imitate others.  I thin kthat was BS way of answering the who orded the trolloc raid without coming right out and saying it.

 

If it is, then it's because he didn't actually know the answer and wanted to make something up. This scene is not evidence of anything, and I don't think Brandon was trying to make it that way.

 

 

>Sort of like how it was never said straight out Grendel kill Asmo but the hint was placed in TOM.

 

 

It was said straight out, and the hints in TOM were strong ones, unlike the scene you're talking about which only says that Moghedien, like any of the other Forsaken, knows how to imitate other Forsaken. It's hardly a special skill.

 

Well if you want to be technical about it we have no idea if the other forsaken can imitate each other since it is never said.

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Except for the fact we have a POV saying how she made sure she could imitate other forsaken and no other POV from any other forsaken suggeting the imitate others.  I thin kthat was BS way of answering the who orded the trolloc raid without coming right out and saying it.

 

If it is, then it's because he didn't actually know the answer and wanted to make something up. This scene is not evidence of anything, and I don't think Brandon was trying to make it that way.

 

 

>Sort of like how it was never said straight out Grendel kill Asmo but the hint was placed i

n TOM.

 

 

It was said straight out, and the hints in TOM were strong ones, unlike the scene you're talking about which only says that Moghedien, like any of the other Forsaken, knows how to imitate other Forsaken. It's hardly a special skill.

Well if you want to be technical about it we have no idea if the other forsaken can imitate each other since it is never said.

 

 

We know it's not a difficult weave, and we've never seen anyone having a problem with it, so it doesn't have to be said.

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