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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
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Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

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Had Egwene known before hand she would not have been so against breaking the seals.  This was a main point of contention between her and Rand.

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Alanna was probably captured by Moridin. He used True Power, that's why none felt any channeling when she disappeared. THE VOICE was most likely DO all along

 

Rand would have noticed her going north through the bond, however I think there was mention of her in a section in either TGS or ToM about her being in the north.

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Anyone else wonder why Padan Fain / Mordeth suddenly started calling himself Shaisam?

 

Seemed so out of the blue and with no explanation.  If I had to guess about the short story set in the wheel of time that Brandon said he is including in the Anthology book coming out, my guess is it's about Shaisam and who/what he is and his motivations.

 

Fain was insane in the membrane, that much we can agree on. He has had multiple names over the years though. Remember he called himself Ordeith during his sequence with the Whitecloaks and Perrin in the Two Rivers.

 

Where was Elaida?

 

Elaida is a damane somewhere now.  Her last scene was clearly writing her out of the series forever.  I dont think anyone expected to see her again.

Probably for the best, I hated her as a character for so many reasons. The main one being she was always a royal bitch :P

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Just signed up here. I feel like there's this weight that has been on my shoulders for over 20 years as I waited for this series to end!

 

I came here looking for the answer to the Rand pipe lighting trick. I like the idea of him having some TAR influence in the waking world because of how close to the bore he was when it was sealed. I haven't looked for a discussion on the Rand->Moridin transfer, but my take on that was that their threads in the pattern were already connected from the Shadar Logoth balefire incident, so it wasn't such a big deal to have the souls guided to the "right" wrong bodies. 

 

Welcome to the forums! 

 

Unfortunately, nobody has the answer to the question you seek. It was intentionally left unexplained. I suspect for this very reason. Everyone wants to know what the Pipe was about. People have their own theories on the matter, some of which might appeal to you, but there is no definitive answer to the question. 

 

Similarly, the bodyswap is uncertain, although in this case, it may be possible to figure it out (I don't know, I haven't tried myself). At the moment however, there are only theories as to how it happened. You are correct that it probably has something to do with their strange connection, but as for the details, your guess is as good as any. 

 

Not the answer you were looking for, but I hope you find something in the discussions here at DM. 

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I came here looking for the answer to the Rand pipe lighting trick.

 

I thought that was just a tease on the part of the authors. Who knows what happened? Maybe Elayne lit his pipe for him; or it's a new self-lighting pipe from his university; or it was a case of post-Ta'veren spontaneous combustion; or Alivia left a tied-off pipe-lighting weave on the pipe... Doesn't matter.

Edited by probe907

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My two main complains once done, and they have already been mentioned.

- Three in a boat?

- The Tinkers and their song

 

 

The tinkers have already been addressed.   I LOL'd when I read this in the epilogue:

 

South.   East or west would do, but he figured he wanted to go someplace away from it all for good.   South first, then maybe out west, along the coast.   Maybe he could find a ship.

 

-------

Do you think he might find a ship?   Works for me anyway.

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Not sure if anyone has brought this one up but I guess the red sails in chapter 1 of TOM remain unexplained.  It was such a precise detail that I didn't expect it to remain unmentioned.  I guess just a sign of Seanchan factions or some cultural thing in Seanchan, for all we know they drape sails in red when open hostilities break out.

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.

 

How was it a "draw" in the past when the Champion of Light turned to the Shadow?

 

 

 

Why do you think that The Dragon ever turned to the Shadow?

 

Here's something from Rand in the climatic fight scene of TGH:

 

"I will never serve you, Father of Lies.   In a thousand lives, I never have.   I know that.  I'm sure of it.  Come.  It is time to die."

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I believe that they were either forgotten, or they went the way of the novices and accepted. The majority of untrained men being left out of the battle because of their untrained-ness. 

They bragged in earlier that all men, even soldiers, were weapons and would fight. So still, 600 men presumed dead? And that's being generous thinking Taim stopped recruiting a few books back. That's huge to me.

 

Also, Min was wrong? Eggy didn't break the seals...

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Why do you think that The Dragon ever turned to the Shadow?

 

Here's something from Rand in the climatic fight scene of TGH:

 

"I will never serve you, Father of Lies.   In a thousand lives, I never have.   I know that.  I'm sure of it.  Come.  It is time to die."

Rand didn't have access to all his lives. He didn't know what he was talking about. RJ has confirmed the Dragon turned.

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That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's. 

Entreri, go back and read the first meeting with Moridin. It clearly states it was the heartbeat and Rand thinks on the tricks himself.

Maybe I read this wrong, but I took Moridin claiming the heartbeat thing as him refusing to believe Rand was special. Rand wasn't even holding the source at that point was he? Did y'all discuss this already?

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@Vards

 

Yeah people have been going back and forth on it. Don't forget that Rand sheepishly admitted similar tricks to Moiraine later on. Also for whatever reason it seems as if Rand's "new powers" were retconned from happening after his epiphany in TGS to the end of AMoL. We have this heartbeat statement, we find out Rand actually had an item of power at Maradon, and we have the Bradnon quote that Rand had already massively powered up with the op by KoD.

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I don't think that the Dragon turning in any particular age would really affect the outcome much unless that particular iteration of the Dragon decided to end the pattern.  What you'd have in the next age is a generally dark and evil time with the servants of the light being a minority adversary.  As the age spun towards its end the light would gather strength, force a confrontation, and the last battle would occur again. 

 

I've often thought that not enough attention gets paid in fandom to the game (can't remember its name) that Moridin was playing with the Fisher King piece.  There's a lot of ways to win, some better than others.  It's a pretty good microcosm of the central conceits of the series, imho.

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I've often thought that not enough attention gets paid in fandom to the game (can't remember its name) that Moridin was playing with the Fisher King piece.  There's a lot of ways to win, some better than others.  It's a pretty good microcosm of the central conceits of the series, imho.

Sha'ra. Good call that is a very important piece of the puzzle.

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@Vards

 

Yeah people have been going back and forth on it. Don't forget that Rand sheepishly admitted similar tricks to Moiraine later on. Also for whatever reason it seems as if Rand's "new powers" were retconned from happening after his epiphany in TGS to the end of AMoL. We have this heartbeat statement, we find out Rand actually had an item of power at Maradon, and we have the Bradnon quote that Rand had already massively powered up with the op by KoD.

 

 

Yea I got through reading, I still stand by my statement, I reviewed it, and it seems like there's no evidence to disprove what he did was a real thing, and Moridin was just trying to rationalize it. The fat man statue retcon pissed me off. Especially since it seems it came from the debate on these forums. It was obvious something was up, and even with that Angreal, I guess we now have to assume it's powered up and nearly an San'Angreal. I mean, Demandred with the 2nd most powerful Male Sa'Angreal seemed less powerful than Rand at Maradon, but whatever I can deal with that I suppose. 

 

The Black Tower thing bothers me more, I still don't see 600 Male Channelers dying off screen. I mean really?  I'm shocked that doesn't bother anyone else (My personal friends I spoke too were bothered by it)

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Oh and Sutts, did anyone else catch the Perrin Finns mention about snake tracks or something when he was dream hopping?

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Oh and last quick question, I'm a real sucker for plot holes, but unless I'm mistaken, you can't stop a gateway from opening without an terangreal right? So, I'm still shocked we never see gateways used as a weapon, after Demandred uses it to kill some of Grandeal's pets (Was it him?). Seems like an easy way of taking out channelers would be chopping off their heads... 

 

Just a thought, 

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Oh and last quick question, I'm a real sucker for plot holes, but unless I'm mistaken, you can't stop a gateway from opening without an terangreal right? So, I'm still shocked we never see gateways used as a weapon, after Demandred uses it to kill some of Grandeal's pets (Was it him?). Seems like an easy way of taking out channelers would be chopping off their heads... 

 

Just a thought, 

Samm Used it to slice her pets in half by opening it where they stood.  Why use gateways to kill someone when they so openly use balefire and have other nasty means to kill people.  Using gateways to kill probably at the time seemed a a minor way to kill.  As has been stated in the book the forsaken were often amazed how the people of this age found ways to use the power they never thought of or could do.  Healing someone who had been stilled, warder bond, etc... they couldn't do back in the age of legends. 

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@Vards

 

Yeah people have been going back and forth on it. Don't forget that Rand sheepishly admitted similar tricks to Moiraine later on. Also for whatever reason it seems as if Rand's "new powers" were retconned from happening after his epiphany in TGS to the end of AMoL. We have this heartbeat statement, we find out Rand actually had an item of power at Maradon, and we have the Bradnon quote that Rand had already massively powered up with the op by KoD.

 

 

Yea I got through reading, I still stand by my statement, I reviewed it, and it seems like there's no evidence to disprove what he did was a real thing, and Moridin was just trying to rationalize it. The fat man statue retcon pissed me off. Especially since it seems it came from the debate on these forums. It was obvious something was up, and even with that Angreal, I guess we now have to assume it's powered up and nearly an San'Angreal. I mean, Demandred with the 2nd most powerful Male Sa'Angreal seemed less powerful than Rand at Maradon, but whatever I can deal with that I suppose. 

 

I thought that the powered up Rand post-dragonmount-epiphany was a pretty cool concept.  

 

In TEOTW, you had Rand accepting the task.

In TGH, you had Rand being proclaimed the Dragon.

In TDR, you had Rand accepting that he was the Dragon.

In all the stuff in between, you had Rand figuring out what it meant to be the Dragon.

On Dragonmount, you had him becoming the Dragon that is ready to face the Dark One.

 

Trying to reduce the impact of the acceptance that Rand achieved on the Dragonmount seemed to just muddy the narrative waters unnecessarily.

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That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's. 

Entreri, go back and read the first meeting with Moridin. It clearly states it was the heartbeat and Rand thinks on the tricks himself.

Maybe I read this wrong, but I took Moridin claiming the heartbeat thing as him refusing to believe Rand was special. Rand wasn't even holding the source at that point was he? Did y'all discuss this already?

 

It was him holding the one power, and the fact that the (darkfriends) couldnt look at him while doing it.  

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Oh and Sutts, did anyone else catch the Perrin Finns mention about snake tracks or something when he was dream hopping?

Yeah that was pretty cool to see the Finns were involved in the last battle as well. There were a few little references of them fighting.

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@Vards

 

Yeah people have been going back and forth on it. Don't forget that Rand sheepishly admitted similar tricks to Moiraine later on. Also for whatever reason it seems as if Rand's "new powers" were retconned from happening after his epiphany in TGS to the end of AMoL. We have this heartbeat statement, we find out Rand actually had an item of power at Maradon, and we have the Bradnon quote that Rand had already massively powered up with the op by KoD.

 

 

Yea I got through reading, I still stand by my statement, I reviewed it, and it seems like there's no evidence to disprove what he did was a real thing, and Moridin was just trying to rationalize it. The fat man statue retcon pissed me off. Especially since it seems it came from the debate on these forums. It was obvious something was up, and even with that Angreal, I guess we now have to assume it's powered up and nearly an San'Angreal. I mean, Demandred with the 2nd most powerful Male Sa'Angreal seemed less powerful than Rand at Maradon, but whatever I can deal with that I suppose. 

 

The Black Tower thing bothers me more, I still don't see 600 Male Channelers dying off screen. I mean really?  I'm shocked that doesn't bother anyone else (My personal friends I spoke too were bothered by it)

its possible a good portion of 'em are in mayene recovering from wounds/exhaustion, or elsewhere just too busted up to join Logain & co at the time.

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But Androl was at the last battle...so couldn't he have dropped more lava on people himself? People in the series have alwasy seemed to be remarkably unimaginative and inconsistent in their use of the OP.

Androl didn't spend his time on the front lines like everyone else. He was either sneaking around or enacting other plans for the whole time. If he had been fighting trollocs then no doubt he would have been dumping lava, along with dropping trollocs hundreds of feet onto other trollocs and pouring oceans onto them. Also note that he wouldn't have been nearly as effective with it all as he was when he was leading a circle of several dozen channelers.

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Wait, do people think the "Rand wasn't really Jesus-Rand he was himself all along it was just an Aes Sedai front" thing was a retcon?

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