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Post-aMoL Speculation & Discussion (Full Spoilers)

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I believe both he and Moridin were burned out by the channeling they did recreating the seal. He outright thought that he was holding enough power that it would do so, similarly to what Egwene did before deciding to go down in a frost of glory.

 

This is my understanding as well.

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I am still pondering the Gaidal Cain topic. In most of these forums everyone seems to accept at this point that Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn. I really don't see this. Olver is just too old. Even Birgitte says as she is about to be reborn that Gaidal is only a few years older than her but Olver is around a decade older. I really think it was the child at the Black Tower, Gadren, mentioned in Towers of Midnight. Anyone else who has finished the story have feedback on this?

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During Rand's battle with the DO at the end of Light and Shadow, his use of the three separate powers was described as "he wove something majestic, a pattern of interlaced saidar and saidan ... This didn't repair, it didn't patch, it forged anew."That sounds like Rand created a new Pattern, or at least significantly altered the existing one, similar to what the DO did in one of the "what if" scenes during the LB. It could also result in a super dreamshard - that may be all the real world is. It would leave Rand able to affect reality just by willpower.If Nakomi was the prior entity to do that, with the world having been her dreamshard, it would explain her meeting with Avi. It could also explain the Ta'veren coincidences, since this person could twist reality using their control over the "dream", giving aid to her chosen champions. The ability of other people to influence the dreamshard is limited and takes great effort, as Rand noted during his meeting with Moridin in the Moridin dreamshard, which could be the basis for channeling - you CAN influence events against the wishes of the dreamer.All of this is similar to what Roger Zelazny did with his Amber series and either repairing an old pattern or adding a new one. The person creating the pattern has the most power over the newly created reality, but others also can have a similar, if somewhat lesser, power.

 

 

Rand did not create a new pattern. He basically healed the rupture in the pattern which lanfear and beidomon caused.

 

think of it this way.

 

lanfear and co drill a hole through te pattern.

 

LTT lays a patch on the hole

 

Rand takes the patch off and weaves a new skin on the pattern. basically made new as fresh. the wound has been healed so to speak

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I am still pondering the Gaidal Cain topic. In most of these forums everyone seems to accept at this point that Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn. I really don't see this. Olver is just too old. Even Birgitte says as she is about to be reborn that Gaidal is only a few years older than her but Olver is around a decade older. I really think it was the child at the Black Tower, Gadren, mentioned in Towers of Midnight. Anyone else who has finished the story have feedback on this?

 

I'm not sure where you got this idea from? Mostly, anyone who dares mention the possibility that Olver = Gaidal Cain is met with fire. 

 

You are correct in your assessment, and I am glad that someone else has come to this conclusion. 

 

It was a popular theory - it still is for those who have not read the interviews - but RJ has said multiple times in interviews that Gaidal is most certainly not Olver.

 

I never thought it was logical though, for the exact reasons you pointed out. As to who he actually is, your guess is as good as any. 

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I am still pondering the Gaidal Cain topic. In most of these forums everyone seems to accept at this point that Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn. I really don't see this. Olver is just too old. Even Birgitte says as she is about to be reborn that Gaidal is only a few years older than her but Olver is around a decade older. I really think it was the child at the Black Tower, Gadren, mentioned in Towers of Midnight. Anyone else who has finished the story have feedback on this?

 

I'm not sure where you got this idea from? Mostly, anyone who dares mention the possibility that Olver = Gaidal Cain is met with fire. 

 

You are correct in your assessment, and I am glad that someone else has come to this conclusion. 

 

It was a popular theory - it still is for those who have not read the interviews - but RJ has said multiple times in interviews that Gaidal is most certainly not Olver.

 

I never thought it was logical though, for the exact reasons you pointed out. As to who he actually is, your guess is as good as any. 

 

I apologize, I am new to posting here. I should clarify that most everyone in the post-MoL discussion forums have been making comments along the lines of "so much for Olver not being Gaidal" etc. I didn't understand why that consensus seemed to be arising after this book when it seemed so clearly wrong Pre MoL. Thank you for replying, I was concerned I had missed some major revelation in the new book.

 

 

Along the lines of speculation, I have another theory about the Wheel's future turnings. I think that the implication is that even though we cannot kill the Dark One and he will feasibly need to be fought again, he cannot win. The truth in this would be the opposite of Ishamael's thinking - the Dark One will not win because of his repeated attacks. So long as there are men who hope and do not give up, the Dark One loses by default. The probability of every person in the world giving up is low making it illogical to believe the Dark One will ever win.

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I am still pondering the Gaidal Cain topic. In most of these forums everyone seems to accept at this point that Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn. I really don't see this. Olver is just too old. Even Birgitte says as she is about to be reborn that Gaidal is only a few years older than her but Olver is around a decade older. I really think it was the child at the Black Tower, Gadren, mentioned in Towers of Midnight. Anyone else who has finished the story have feedback on this?

 

I'm not sure where you got this idea from? Mostly, anyone who dares mention the possibility that Olver = Gaidal Cain is met with fire. 

 

You are correct in your assessment, and I am glad that someone else has come to this conclusion. 

 

It was a popular theory - it still is for those who have not read the interviews - but RJ has said multiple times in interviews that Gaidal is most certainly not Olver.

 

I never thought it was logical though, for the exact reasons you pointed out. As to who he actually is, your guess is as good as any. 

 

I apologize, I am new to posting here. I should clarify that most everyone in the post-MoL discussion forums have been making comments along the lines of "so much for Olver not being Gaidal" etc. I didn't understand why that consensus seemed to be arising after this book when it seemed so clearly wrong Pre MoL. Thank you for replying, I was concerned I had missed some major revelation in the new book.

 

 

Along the lines of speculation, I have another theory about the Wheel's future turnings. I think that the implication is that even though we cannot kill the Dark One and he will feasibly need to be fought again, he cannot win. The truth in this would be the opposite of Ishamael's thinking - the Dark One will not win because of his repeated attacks. So long as there are men who hope and do not give up, the Dark One loses by default. The probability of every person in the world giving up is low making it illogical to believe the Dark One will ever win.

 

I agree. It was never possible for the DO to win. The Pattern wouldn't, or couldn't, allow it. Given the infinite turnings of the Wheel, if there was ever even a miniscule chance of the DO winning, there could be no Wheel. We are told from the very start and it's hammered into our heads book after book. There are no endings.

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Unless there's some discussion of this in the last book, Perrin's leadership abilities aren't a result of his ta'veren nature, but inherent to himself.  It was only his ta'veren nature which brought those qualities to the surface.  Thus, the fact that he may no longer be ta'veren will not affect his abilities as a leader, which were always there within him.

 

As far as Mat's luck is concerned, he himself thinks that it is tied to the Shadar Logoth dagger.  If he's right, the fact that he's no longer ta'veren may have no effect on his luck.

 

Since this is a full-spoiler forum... 

 

Perrin's leadership abilities have absolutely no bearing whatsoever in aMoL; Perrin's role in aMoL is 100% tel'aran'rhiod-based. 

 

And if Mat's luck is tied to the Shadar Logoth dagger, well, he's equally screwed since that dissolves and disappears from the world. 

 

Point being, I think if Perrin's statement that they're no longer ta'veren is accurate, Mat's battle luck is gone, and far from just losing at dice, he's going to take a gamble on the battlefield and lose, badly, pretty early on in the Seanchan consolidation. Therefore, I'm just going to assume that Perrin was mistaken in that, and that it was only the colors-swirling-in-the-head thing that was gone -- after all, that didn't become a thing until long after they were already ta'veren.

 

He should still have the memories though would he not? Or are all ta'veren abilities stripped of the heroes now that the Dark One is sealed away and the Bore closed? 

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I am still pondering the Gaidal Cain topic. In most of these forums everyone seems to accept at this point that Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn. I really don't see this. Olver is just too old. Even Birgitte says as she is about to be reborn that Gaidal is only a few years older than her but Olver is around a decade older. I really think it was the child at the Black Tower, Gadren, mentioned in Towers of Midnight. Anyone else who has finished the story have feedback on this?

 

I'm not sure where you got this idea from? Mostly, anyone who dares mention the possibility that Olver = Gaidal Cain is met with fire. 

 

You are correct in your assessment, and I am glad that someone else has come to this conclusion. 

 

It was a popular theory - it still is for those who have not read the interviews - but RJ has said multiple times in interviews that Gaidal is most certainly not Olver.

 

I never thought it was logical though, for the exact reasons you pointed out. As to who he actually is, your guess is as good as any. 

 

I apologize, I am new to posting here. I should clarify that most everyone in the post-MoL discussion forums have been making comments along the lines of "so much for Olver not being Gaidal" etc. I didn't understand why that consensus seemed to be arising after this book when it seemed so clearly wrong Pre MoL. Thank you for replying, I was concerned I had missed some major revelation in the new book.

 

 

Along the lines of speculation, I have another theory about the Wheel's future turnings. I think that the implication is that even though we cannot kill the Dark One and he will feasibly need to be fought again, he cannot win. The truth in this would be the opposite of Ishamael's thinking - the Dark One will not win because of his repeated attacks. So long as there are men who hope and do not give up, the Dark One loses by default. The probability of every person in the world giving up is low making it illogical to believe the Dark One will ever win.

 

I agree. It was never possible for the DO to win. The Pattern wouldn't, or couldn't, allow it. Given the infinite turnings of the Wheel, if there was ever even a miniscule chance of the DO winning, there could be no Wheel. We are told from the very start and it's hammered into our heads book after book. There are no endings.

 

I think that Rand and the Dark One proved that you can't have reality without the Pattern itself. If the Dark One destroys the Wheel of Time, it destroys the Pattern and all of reality is destroyed as well. There is no way to win when you can't not destroy the Pattern. The Dark One doesn't have the power to create a new version of the Pattern either I don't think.

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Sinmara: No problem, I was just curious to see why you thought that, no need to apologise. I was wondering if I missed something. 

 

Re: DO winning. A good theory again, logical conclusion. I believe you are correct in this. The DO is flawed, and incapable of learning, he lacks understanding of humanity and life that it makes it impossible for him to win. 

 

Re: Memories: True, I believe he does have memories, but the DO isn't like a human. The DO is incapable of learning from the mistakes like a human could do. 

 

The DO can change things, and has done. The DO changed the way they fought in the AoL. However, to actually win, that is something the DO is incapable of learning, no matter how many times he fails. 

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I believe both he and Moridin were burned out by the channeling they did recreating the seal. He outright thought that he was holding enough power that it would do so, similarly to what Egwene did before deciding to go down in a frost of glory.

 

This is my understanding as well.

 

 

See I didn't think this at all.  Rand couldn't even sense Saidin.  When someone is stilled or is burned out, they can still sense it so close yet so far away at the same time.  Rand didn't feel it.  There was no sense of loss.  I think that Moridin's body was just that: a body.  He was essentially "reborn" with a fresh body that didn't have the talent at all.  At least not THAT talent.  Now he can just Neo things.

 

Egwene deciding to just die because she would be burned out otherwise irritated me.  Stilling had been cured at this point.  Same with Annoura's sacrifice: yeah, she burned out.  But it wasn't as terrible of a thing anymore.

Edited by peasant007

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I'm been big on the deal Rand would cut with the Seanchan paralleling the deal the US and UK cut with the Soviet Union against Nazi Germany, but the post-TG state of the world also strongly suggests pre-Civil War USA. The Seanchan hold channelers as slaves, and that is anathema to the rest of Randland. Channelers from outside Seanchan territory will travel there and be captured, and their people will want them back. Damane will escape and the non-Seanchan will be loathe to return them. So much of the Seanchan' system relied on its uniformity and the lack of any visible alternative. Now the Seanchan will be able to hear of and presumably travel to lands where channelers walk free. The Seanchan's best brainwashing efforts aside, damane will still occasionally flee. They will learn of the outside world and take note. Women (and men) who suspect they may be able to channel will flee to non-Seanchan lands. I think this is more dangerous to the Seanchan system that the knowledge that sul'dam can learn to channel. It's also probably the best possible solution. The good guys never would have won without the Seanchan, and the Seanchan would never have immediately given up their system (nor could they have). But now there is a possibility of a peaceful solution, a gradual emancipation, rather than resolution by war (although that is still likely) (Min's newfound position will help as well).

 

 

i'm thinking of it more like the deal that created the American Republic and put off the civil war for almost a century.  Yeah, it makes your skin crawl, but better to live and be able to fight that battle another day rather than see the world destroyed while you fight your battle.  And here's my crank post aMoL theory:

 

Artur Hawkwing is born a few centuries later and manages to become the Abraham Lincoln (i.e. freeing the Seanchan damane).

 

I really like this theory! A kind of Life of Brian view. Hawkwing started something that he then has to correct, great!

 

More speculation on what is than what could be, but i was thinking about Egwene's role as the "female dragon", and i realized that Egwene is, as far as i remember, the only other character in the series to have multiple people who love her and she loves. It starts with Rand/Egwene, and then Galad/Egwene, and then Gawyn/Egwene. I wonder if this is somewhat of a mirroring of the fact that Egwene is, indeed, the Light's champion in some rotations of the wheel, destined to have the three lovers (although Rand would actually not be a lover since they have the clean break). I'm probably just reading too far into it, but interesting nonetheless.

 

I also really like this insight. Reading the yin/yang central theme of the WoT and you have the insight to see Egwene as every bit the "Dragon" that Rand is, more so in that Rand had the broadstroke outline of what he needed to do, Egwene not so.

 

 

Having read that Harriett has said "no outrigger" stories, but as I recall, RJ had said with New Spring being the first of three ancillary WoT stories, the other two would be set after aMoL. What level of development is there on these? I would love to see the outlines or notes, just to savore the plans of RJ for after......

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I agree. It was never possible for the DO to win. The Pattern wouldn't, or couldn't, allow it. Given the infinite turnings of the Wheel, if there was ever even a miniscule chance of the DO winning, there could be no Wheel. We are told from the very start and it's hammered into our heads book after book. There are no endings.

Except for the fact that RJ has told us it's possible.

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Egwene deciding to just die because she would be burned out otherwise irritated me.  Stilling had been cured at this point.  Same with Annoura's sacrifice: yeah, she burned out.  But it wasn't as terrible of a thing anymore.

 

I didn't think burning out could be Healed, just stilling?

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Egwene deciding to just die because she would be burned out otherwise irritated me.  Stilling had been cured at this point.  Same with Annoura's sacrifice: yeah, she burned out.  But it wasn't as terrible of a thing anymore.

 

I didn't think burning out could be Healed, just stilling?

It is quite likely burning out can't be healed. Stilling one must reconnect the "cut" to make the connection to the source active again. People can still sense the source once they've been stilled. When you are burned out the connection is gone, much like not being able to heal Rand's missing hand.

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The Dark One can win. If it wasn't for Mat saving the day at Merrilor and Perrin's dreamspike, the only humans left in a few years would have been the evil Sharans and Aiel, that's if all the balefire didn't break the pattern on its own. When all the good guys are dead, the Dark One wouldn't have to make any give up. We get a glimpse of a world where this sort of thing happened in The Great Hunt, where humans lost in the Trolloc Wars. It was just an empty world, except for what Lanfear brought in with her.

Edited by Drifter

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Egwene deciding to just die because she would be burned out otherwise irritated me.  Stilling had been cured at this point.  Same with Annoura's sacrifice: yeah, she burned out.  But it wasn't as terrible of a thing anymore.

 

I didn't think burning out could be Healed, just stilling?

It is quite likely burning out can't be healed. Stilling one must reconnect the "cut" to make the connection to the source active again. People can still sense the source once they've been stilled. When you are burned out the connection is gone, much like not being able to heal Rand's missing hand.

 

Ah, thanks for clarifying.  I always thought that Stilling was when someone did it to them, whereas Burning Out was when they did it to themselves.  Same effect, different ways it was accomplished.

Edited by peasant007

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A few things I like to imagine happening that touch on multiple posts in this thread:

 

I think Birgitte is reborn as one of Melaine's children. They constantly mentioned how close to term she is whereas Elayne is months away from pregnancy.

 

I like to think that Hawking's conversation with Tuon will influence the Seanchan to abandon collaring people.

 

Is it ever stated that the body of Moridin had the ability to channel saidan? I thought he was exclusively using the true power? Do you necessarily have to be able to channel saidan in order for the Dark One to grant you access to the true power?

 

As far as Rand being in the body of one of the Forsaken, if he can will the Pattern to light his pipe couldn't he just will his appearance to change as well? He could bend the Pattern to look however he wants.

 

This one is more of a stretch but I like to imagine the woman outside the cavern is Nakomi and that is Rand's mother. She somehow appears as the veil between life and death and the Pattern is thin right as the Bore/cavern is closing. Her words of "that's good, that's what you need to do" echo those of Tam's farewell and the "you did well". Also, Rand's words after she disappears about how we choose our fate even though the Aelfinn told him what he needed to do mirrors that Tigraine ultimately chose to leave for the Waste even though she was foretold to. (I had already decided to interpret Nakomi as Tigraine from ToM)

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A few things I like to imagine happening that touch on multiple posts in this thread: I think Birgitte is reborn as one of Melaine's children. They constantly mentioned how close to term she is whereas Elayne is months away from pregnancy. I like to think that Hawking's conversation with Tuon will influence the Seanchan to abandon collaring people. Is it ever stated that the body of Moridin had the ability to channel saidan? I thought he was exclusively using the true power? Do you necessarily have to be able to channel saidan in order for the Dark One to grant you access to the true power? As far as Rand being in the body of one of the Forsaken, if he can will the Pattern to light his pipe couldn't he just will his appearance to change as well? He could bend the Pattern to look however he wants. This one is more of a stretch but I like to imagine the woman outside the cavern is Nakomi and that is Rand's mother. She somehow appears as the veil between life and death and the Pattern is thin right as the Bore/cavern is closing. Her words of "that's good, that's what you need to do" echo those of Tam's farewell and the "you did well". Also, Rand's words after she disappears about how we choose our fate even though the Aelfinn told him what he needed to do mirrors that Tigraine ultimately chose to leave for the Waste even though she was foretold to. (I had already decided to interpret Nakomi as Tigraine from ToM)

 

I'm with you on the Nakomi/Tigraine theory.  Largely, because I like the symmetry of us seeing Kari al'Thor at Rand's baptism as the Dragon and Tigraine at his death and resurrection.

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I'm been big on the deal Rand would cut with the Seanchan paralleling the deal the US and UK cut with the Soviet Union against Nazi Germany, but the post-TG state of the world also strongly suggests pre-Civil War USA. The Seanchan hold channelers as slaves, and that is anathema to the rest of Randland. Channelers from outside Seanchan territory will travel there and be captured, and their people will want them back. Damane will escape and the non-Seanchan will be loathe to return them. So much of the Seanchan' system relied on its uniformity and the lack of any visible alternative. Now the Seanchan will be able to hear of and presumably travel to lands where channelers walk free. The Seanchan's best brainwashing efforts aside, damane will still occasionally flee. They will learn of the outside world and take note. Women (and men) who suspect they may be able to channel will flee to non-Seanchan lands. I think this is more dangerous to the Seanchan system that the knowledge that sul'dam can learn to channel. It's also probably the best possible solution. The good guys never would have won without the Seanchan, and the Seanchan would never have immediately given up their system (nor could they have). But now there is a possibility of a peaceful solution, a gradual emancipation, rather than resolution by war (although that is still likely) (Min's newfound position will help as well).

 

 

i'm thinking of it more like the deal that created the American Republic and put off the civil war for almost a century.  Yeah, it makes your skin crawl, but better to live and be able to fight that battle another day rather than see the world destroyed while you fight your battle.  And here's my crank post aMoL theory:

 

Artur Hawkwing is born a few centuries later and manages to become the Abraham Lincoln (i.e. freeing the Seanchan damane).

 

 

 

 

I really like this theory! A kind of Life of Brian view. Hawkwing started something that he then has to correct, great!

 

More speculation on what is than what could be, but i was thinking about Egwene's role as the "female dragon", and i realized that Egwene is, as far as i remember, the only other character in the series to have multiple people who love her and she loves. It starts with Rand/Egwene, and then Galad/Egwene, and then Gawyn/Egwene. I wonder if this is somewhat of a mirroring of the fact that Egwene is, indeed, the Light's champion in some rotations of the wheel, destined to have the three lovers (although Rand would actually not be a lover since they have the clean break). I'm probably just reading too far into it, but interesting nonetheless.

 

I also really like this insight. Reading the yin/yang central theme of the WoT and you have the insight to see Egwene as every bit the "Dragon" that Rand is, more so in that Rand had the broadstroke outline of what he needed to do, Egwene not so.

 

 

Having read that Harriett has said "no outrigger" stories, but as I recall, RJ had said with New Spring being the first of three ancillary WoT stories, the other two would be set after aMoL. What level of development is there on these? I would love to see the outlines or notes, just to savore the plans of RJ for after......

 

 

 

 

It was my understanding that there are notes for 3 prequels, one of which was New Spring. One was to cover Tam and the other where New Spring left off.... the 20 years that Moiraine and Lan were searching for Rand, that is the one I would like to read.

Edited by Ryrin

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People can change their mind.  I'm not willing to say there will be no outriggers forever.  Probably not any time soon, but you never know...

Or the prequels. I wouldn't expect them to say anything other that what they are now, no more. It would only help sales or maybe I am deceiving myself. Lol.

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unless i missed one here are the 7 amyrlin seats since the first book

1-Tamra Ospenya (Blue Ajah)
2-Sierin Vayu (Gray Ajah)
3-Marith Jaen (Blue Ajah)
4-Siuan Sanche (Blue Ajah)
5-Elaida a'Roihan (Red Ajah)
6-Egwene al'Vere (None)
7-Cadsuane Melaidhrin: Green Ajah.
amol

 

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