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Post-aMoL Speculation & Discussion (Full Spoilers)


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The whole callandor thing is bothering me. while it was freaking awesome, it doesn't make sense to me. How could people create a sa'angreal that worked with the TP without the creator of said sa'angreal having knowledge of the workings of the TP? 

My theory on this based on the conversation Rand has with Elayne about how angreal are made from seeds.. I think a Chosen(there were many more than the 13) in the AOL who had access to the TP, made callandor and either intentionaly made it a TP Sa'angreal or perhaps accidentally.

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The whole callandor thing is bothering me. while it was freaking awesome, it doesn't make sense to me. How could people create a sa'angreal that worked with the TP without the creator of said sa'angreal having knowledge of the workings of the TP? 

 

yeah its kind of weird

 

I am thinking that maybe a dreadlord had a hand in its making, intending on using it, but then it got misplaced or stowed awya or something. Still, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense as something that was cast aside because of a manufacturing flaw.

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I'm kind of curious if Rand will ever decide to pay Tam a visit after his "death".  That's one I imagine he'll want to lay to rest.  I'm sure he'll have to get a tongue lashing from Nynaeve at some point, though.  I wish I could read it. 

 

Also, I have to wonder: is Rand immortal now?  Or, since he can no longer channel, is his lifespan of normal length?  Part of me would really like a "twenty years later" epilogue.  Of course, another part of me knows it would be better not to get it.  Then again, didn't RJ say he would have liked to have written about Mat post last battle?

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Let's see:

 

Mat remains ta'veren much to his sorrow and spends the next decades retaking Seanchan and convincing Fortuona to change the Seanchan culture of social darwinism.

The damane problem gets solved by Seta and Bethamin. They take a binder back to Seanchan and establish two new oaths for all Seanchan channellers. The first oath is to serve the empire faithfully without breaking laws and the second is to never release the first oath.

 

 

Perrin is named Wolfking and spends his time rebuilding Saldaea, the Two Rivers and Ghealdan and transforming them into one of the strongest alliances in Randland

Faile is crowned Queen of Saldaea

Alliandre eventually marries Tam who retains the Stewardship over the Two Rivers and eventually the Two Rivers and Ghealdan merge all but in name.

 

Rand keeps on travelling around the world for a couple of decades before he decides to explore other worlds through the portal stones. He'll live for as long as he likes, though probably not longer than the regular lifespan of a channeller, but he won't ever interfere openly in the affairs of the world. Even when the Dragon's Peace gets broken eventually he won't interfere.

Min will live as long as she wants too since Rand can just will her to retain her youth.

Elayne will unite Andor and Cairhien and then she will invade Shara to balance Tuon's reclamation of Seanchan.

Aviendha will look to the future of the Aiel. Creating holds and septs in all the unclaimed stretches of land between the nations.

 

Asha'man and Aes Sedai won't merge any time soon. Men and women will work together often, but they'll remain separate. Eventually women will join the Asha'man and men will join the Aes Sedai.

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I know the Shaido have been badly mauled but they still do exsist.  I wonder what will become of them since they have been excluded from agreement everyone signed. Will the other aiel pound them into nothing, will they try to hold onto the old ways, will they raid other lands forcing everyone to go smack them, or will they simply vanish after time.

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The whole callandor thing is bothering me. while it was freaking awesome, it doesn't make sense to me. How could people create a sa'angreal that worked with the TP without the creator of said sa'angreal having knowledge of the workings of the TP? 

My theory on this based on the conversation Rand has with Elayne about how angreal are made from seeds.. I think a Chosen(there were many more than the 13) in the AOL who had access to the TP, made callandor and either intentionaly made it a TP Sa'angreal or perhaps accidentally.

Since Mordin seemed to know it needed the TP, my guess is maybe a forsaken made it as a trap and if someone tried to use it aginst someone using the TP they could seize control of you.  But since there were writings Min was reading about the sword, my guess is it was a captured forsaken Sa'angreal.  Needing the TP does seem like a safe guard a forsaken would want on such a powerful device in case it got used against them.

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The whole callandor thing is bothering me. while it was freaking awesome, it doesn't make sense to me. How could people create a sa'angreal that worked with the TP without the creator of said sa'angreal having knowledge of the workings of the TP? 

 

It could be that one of the sword's creators was a dreadlord and snuck in the flaw to ensure it couldn't be used against the Dark One. The Wheel could have put the person in that position to introduce the flaw.

 

I don't think Nakomi did the body swap. I think the body swap happened during the flood of light when the Dark One was sealed. A lot of times when Rand channeled, he felt like he was close to touching Moridin and wondered what would happen if they did. They were close together and channeling a large amount of both powers. Rand couldn't see and seemed pretty out of it when he walked back out of Shayol Ghul. There isn't anything to note what body he is in at the time. The speaker could be talking to him - having recognized him as Rand in Moridin's body (if this is Nakomi, she'd know), or she could have been talking to someone else.

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During Rand's battle with the DO at the end of Light and Shadow, his use of the three separate powers was described as "he wove something majestic, a pattern of interlaced saidar and saidan ... This didn't repair, it didn't patch, it forged anew."

 

That sounds like Rand created a new Pattern, or at least significantly altered the existing one, similar to what the DO did in one of the "what if" scenes during the LB. It could also result in a super dreamshard - that may be all the real world is. It would leave Rand able to affect reality just by willpower.

 

If Nakomi was the prior entity to do that, with the world having been her dreamshard, it would explain her meeting with Avi. It could also explain the Ta'veren coincidences, since this person could twist reality using their control over the "dream", giving aid to her chosen champions. The ability of other people to influence the dreamshard is limited and takes great effort, as Rand noted during his meeting with Moridin in the Moridin dreamshard, which could be the basis for channeling - you CAN influence events against the wishes of the dreamer.

 

All of this is similar to what Roger Zelazny did with his Amber series and either repairing an old pattern or adding a new one. The person creating the pattern has the most power over the newly created reality, but others also can have a similar, if somewhat lesser, power.

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Tweet from the official WoT Facebook page saying Harriet confirmed no outriggers.

 

harriet is a dirty word.  at least lucas had the stones to let other authors continue to expand his world.. she's only hurting the fans.

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For those asking about Chekov's Gun, I think that was the Turning by 13x13.  Something hinted about early on that we didn't see in action until the end.  Also, the Sharans could be considered a Chekov's Gun.  We knew about them for a long time but didn't know if they'd be involved at the end.

 

The only thing Lucas has "the stones for" is making money.  I'd rather not see Wheel of Time sell out.  I'd hate to see it become just another "campaign setting" with various authors having conflicting visions, like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance (neither of those are near the same level as WoT, of course, but both are series that contain multiple authors and many many books...and that's not a good thing).

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For those asking about Chekov's Gun, I think that was the Turning by 13x13.  Something hinted about early on that we didn't see in action until the end.  Also, the Sharans could be considered a Chekov's Gun.  We knew about them for a long time but didn't know if they'd be involved at the end.

 

The only thing Lucas has "the stones for" is making money.  I'd rather not see Wheel of Time sell out.  I'd hate to see it become just another "campaign setting" with various authors having conflicting visions, like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance (neither of those are near the same level as WoT, of course, but both are series that contain multiple authors and many many books...and that's not a good thing).

 

the star wars universe is not a campaign setting like the star trek books, forgotten realms or dragonlance.  before lucas turned to the shadow, every book had to be approved by him and was considered canon.  there is no reason for harriet not to do the same.

 

oh well, i plan on living forever, maybe i can convince nerds in the next age to take it over once she bites the dust and the copywrite ends.

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The whole callandor thing is bothering me. while it was freaking awesome, it doesn't make sense to me. How could people create a sa'angreal that worked with the TP without the creator of said sa'angreal having knowledge of the workings of the TP? 

 

It could be that one of the sword's creators was a dreadlord and snuck in the flaw to ensure it couldn't be used against the Dark One. The Wheel could have put the person in that position to introduce the flaw.

 

I don't think Nakomi did the body swap. I think the body swap happened during the flood of light when the Dark One was sealed. A lot of times when Rand channeled, he felt like he was close to touching Moridin and wondered what would happen if they did. They were close together and channeling a large amount of both powers. Rand couldn't see and seemed pretty out of it when he walked back out of Shayol Ghul. There isn't anything to note what body he is in at the time. The speaker could be talking to him - having recognized him as Rand in Moridin's body (if this is Nakomi, she'd know), or she could have been talking to someone else.

 Or it could be that it was made after the Saidin was tainted, and in making it in such a way created a flawed, TP Sa'andreal. 

 

It's the same way that the taint made Rand mad by giving him access to his former life-- a life full of memories that gave him the knowledge he needed to win. 

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3.  I seem to recall that Birgitte has said to Elayne that she is seldom born to nobility (never?) - while the HotH are spun out repeatedly into different nations/situations some elements of their character remain true.  So it wouldn't make sense for her to be reborn as Elayne's daughter.  Also - Gaidal is absolutely Olver. 

 

This was a very common theory and a good one...except Robert Jordan stated that Olver is not Gaidal Cain.

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Olver= Gaidal was certainly popular, but it was never plausible. 

 

Gaidal was spun out in like FoH, around less than two years before the end of aMoL. Olver is much, much older than 2 years old. 

 

As RJ said, TAR time is strange, but it can't reverse time. 

 

Gaidal is at most 2 years old, much likely far less than that. 

 

I don't believe any such thing was said in aMoL, it may have been hinted at, but it was a red herring. IF it did state it, it was an error. This has nothing to do with RJ's statements or whether or not RJ changed his mind, it is impossible due to in-world rules of the universe. 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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So what exactly was Slayer's key role in helping Rand succeed? He was formed from Isam and Luc. Luc went to the Blight because of Gitaro's advice. If he hadn't gone, there wouldn't have been a Slayer (presumably, or it would have been just Isam), but I don't see how it would have had any affect on the Light's victory. He kills wolves, battles Perrin a few times, and eventually gets killed, but I don't recall any major "if Slayer wasn't involved, then character X wouldn't have done Y, and the Shadow could have won". Tigraine would have gone to the Aiel Waste anyway and wound up giving birth to Rand. So why was he sent to the Blight?

I am leaning towards the application of the dreamspike in TAR's SG/PoD. Without Slayer, Perrin never would have experienced the capabilities/effects of a dreamspike, and wouldn't have thought to apply it at SG - thus limiting the ability for any Foresaken, dreadlords, dreamwalkers (we know that the dreamspike can have a negative impact on almost anyone in TAR except those who are aware of it, and thus able to create a reality that counters the effect of walking through the barrier created by activating it), etc. This forced channelers to attempt to enter the PoD the old fashioned way (i.e. no gateways, no TAR, etc.), and we learned from Thom's scene at the end that this very thing had been attempted by 5 individuals.

 

Also, Slayer - being Perrin's nemesis - "force-fed" Perrin in mastering TAR. This, obviously, played a key role in helping Rand to succeed.

Edited by DrgnRebrn
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Unless there's some discussion of this in the last book, Perrin's leadership abilities aren't a result of his ta'veren nature, but inherent to himself.  It was only his ta'veren nature which brought those qualities to the surface.  Thus, the fact that he may no longer be ta'veren will not affect his abilities as a leader, which were always there within him.

 

As far as Mat's luck is concerned, he himself thinks that it is tied to the Shadar Logoth dagger.  If he's right, the fact that he's no longer ta'veren may have no effect on his luck.

 

Since this is a full-spoiler forum... 

 

Perrin's leadership abilities have absolutely no bearing whatsoever in aMoL; Perrin's role in aMoL is 100% tel'aran'rhiod-based. 

 

 

 

Perrin's previous leadership abilities were evident in the other books when he led armies and defeated the trollocs in the Two Rivers. They were innately in him.... they were developed more fully as he matured.

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Min stays behind, or else how can she take up it with her Wanderer? Interesting how she alone didn't get pregnant... RAFO, folks

 

 

 

Why is it "interesting" that she didn't get pregnant? It was noted that she was drinking a special tea that prevented pregnancy (not forkroot.) I don't remember the name of it but I could look if you wanted me to.

Edited by Ryrin
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Well, a deadbeat Dad = more than a financial thing.  It's nice to have two parents involved actively in raising children (yes it takes a village but anyone who's grown up with a missing parent will say that they wish they had known that parent).  And I don't think Rand would want to be an absent parent. 

 

I finished a couple days ago and have been thinking and processing and rereading since:

 

1. Tam knows that the body on the pyre is not Rand.  Page 904 - just look at the words used.  "Rand could finally rest."  "Tam looked at the corpse, gazing down into his son's face by the fire's light."  I think he knows.  In fact, I think that more than just Min/Avi/Elayne/Alivia (and Cadsuane) know the truth or will know soon.  I would posit that Mat and Perrin will know soon as well.  These are people after all upon whom Rand relied, and who were his friends - who kept his secrets and would keep this secret as well.  And who would find more peace in knowing that Rand is able to live free of DR and just as himself now.  I wouldn't be surprised if, as she thinks about it, Nyneave figures it out as well.  I'd think her delvings would have been 'off' enough that she might start rethinking what she was seeing as she looked at Rand's body and Moridin's body. 

 

 

Tam had tears streaming down his face. He also mentions a last gift from his son as things start to bloom. He uses term "rest" as is used in "rest in peace." Tam does not know.

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I finished reading with the feeling that Rand or one of his girls will let Tam know that he's OK.  Even if they don't say it outloud, I suspect he will talk to Min and she will betray something.  In fact, almost anyone who cares about Rand is going to come to the same conclusion after interacting with the girls.

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I actually think the Oath Rod will be the justification that will eventually be used to convince the Seanchan to abandon the sul'dam and damane. The notion is that channelers shouldn't be able to run around without some form of leash. The Oath Rod will be their leash in the future. I'm actually surprised Egewene didn't bring this up during her conversation/confrontation with Tuon.

 

 

Egwene thought about letting AS retire and release themselves from the Oath Rod.     Thus Egwene wouldn't offer the Oath Rod as a long-term solution.     Besides that, do you really think that anyone will talk the Wise Ones and the Windfinders into swearing on the Oath Rod?   (I sure don't.)

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I don't think so. Avienda says "now we make sure that everyone well and truly believes he is gone." Rand paid for the "Dragon's Peace" with his life. If people learned that he was not dead, it would invalidate the agreement. I believe Min will follow him eventually. The two others have obligations. How he will see them again, I have no clue but we do know he said he would not be around to be a father to his and Elayne's babies.

 

After all he's been through, I'm sure freedom is exhilarating but he is walking away from everyone and everything he loves.

Edited by Ryrin
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Here's a somewhat bizarre theory......

 

Nakomi was the woman that met Rand as he carried Moridin out of the Pit of Doom.

 

I think everyone assumes it's Alivia, but Rand describes the woman as old, gray hair, wearing Aiel garb, and having a voice he did not recognize.

 

In ToM, Aviendha describes Nakomi as having graying hair, wearing normal Aiel clothing.

 

I think Rand would recognize Alivia's voice, and Alivia is described as having yellow hair with threads of white running through it.

 

How did the body swap come about?  Wouldn't it take someone of fairly supreme power to be able to do that?  Maybe like, the Creator?

 

Perhaps Nakomi was the Creator made flesh?  Odd things happened at Aviendha's meal (coal on the fire appearing out of nowhere, the meal being the most delicious she'd ever had, etc etc.)

 

Nakomi pushes Aviendha to see things a little differently regarding the Waste vs. the "wetlands" and also, I think, is the seed planted that lets Aviendha realize that the Aiel cannot be left out of the Dragon's Peace -- they must continue serving the Dragon to survive.  In a sense, this was the first step in saving the Aiel from obliteration, as seen in the Pillars.

 

Aviendha askes Nakomi which sept is here, and Nakomi responses, "I am far from my roof, yet not far at all.  Perhaps IT is far from ME.  I cannot answer your question, apprentice, for it is not my place to give this truth."

 

And when she leaves, she says, "If you'll excuse me, I need to see to nature."  A simple explanation is going to the bathroom.... but "see to nature".....  Suggestive, no?

 

Anyway, I know this is a wacky theory..... 

 

Thoughts??

I like your theory.  The stuff that happened with Aviendha at the fire couldn't have been channeling or Aviendha would have felt the weaves.

 

I also would have liked to have more detail on the body swap, and how Alivia 'helped him die.'  Rand got to keep his eyes, we know cause earlier Moridin was described as having tons of saa, but then Rand only had one at the end.  I'm glad becuase I thought life without his hand was kind of lame for a guy who is willing to die for the world. 

 

I think it didn't make sense that he couldn't channel either.  Both he and moridin could channel, so it stands to reason that he would be burned our or not, but not how it was described, like he had never been able to channel at all. Is channeling part of the physical body, or is it attached to the soul? Cuase Rand and LTT could both channel. Now that Rand can weave the pattern, or whatever it is that he did with the pipe, maybe that just kind of took the place of channeling, and channeling is really just a small part of what Rand can do now.

 

From the post quote, it seems that the dragon will be born again.  I think Rand will have to die, the wheel continuing to take its course. I'm so glad that he didn't die, and that he gets a chance at a happy life.  I thought it was really tragic that Egwene and Gawyn died, but honestly I'm surprised that more characters didn't get killed in the Las Battle. A lot of authors seems to like to kill everyone off at the end.

 

I believe both he and Moridin were burned out by the channeling they did recreating the seal.  He outright thought that he was holding enough power that it would do so, similarly to what Egwene did before deciding to go down in a frost of glory.

 

If Cads decides to release her oaths so she doesn't die she will likely hold many of the same positions Egwene did, and I doubt Fortuona will ever bring up that "being collared is good" argument ever again, she was far too embarrassed by what it resulted in the first time.  Perhaps Mat will be able to help her see the problems, because while he doesn't like channelers the idea of damane is beyond anything he would wish as well.

 

And on a fun note:  Fortuona makes it 5 minutes before she is about to die, and ends up channeling instinctively to save herself.  She attempts to demand to be collared but Mat and the Deathwatch Guards (after Mat manages to convince them that this is a better show of loyalty than listening to her) tie her up until she comes to her senses :P.

 

Also, at some point didn't RJ or BS confirm that Mat's luck was not simply the luck of a Taveren but something else?

Edited by Torn Shadow
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