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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Post-aMoL Speculation & Discussion (Full Spoilers)


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One thing im curious about, is when Mat is talking to the Heros of the Horn, Mat is all worried that he might become a Hero, and they tell hiim that he has another destiny or something so he doesnt have to worry about it.

 

Does that mean to be a Hero of the Horn is a conscience desicion? You can choose whether or not to be a Hero? Or was there gonna be something bigger with Mat Post Wheel of Time(books jordan would have written).

 

That exchange was only an attempt to tell the readers that Mat is actually not a Hero of the Horn and is just a normal guy that happened to be ta'averen this time around.  It was a long standing question whether or not Mat and Perrin were Heroes so it must have been in RJ's notes and Brandon wanted to communicate it to us.

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One thing im curious about, is when Mat is talking to the Heros of the Horn, Mat is all worried that he might become a Hero, and they tell hiim that he has another destiny or something so he doesnt have to worry about it.

 

Does that mean to be a Hero of the Horn is a conscience desicion? You can choose whether or not to be a Hero? Or was there gonna be something bigger with Mat Post Wheel of Time(books jordan would have written).

I disagree with Mark in that it was actually Brandon communicating us that they were indeed Heroes. He did it in Mat's voice: do the opposite of what you say, say the opposite of what you do.

 

Also someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think RJ said in interviews that you are chosen not offered to become a Hero. Meaning it's not a concious choice. I'm trying to find this quote. I'll let you know.

 

Edit: Sorry, I was wrong. You cannot choose to stop being a Hero but there is nothing about becoming one.

Edited by Cem Önal
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I have a quick question - one that bugged me last night during my read. I was tired and might have missed it though.

 

Did Mat's dice ever stop rolling in his head? I kept waiting for it and it never came.

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I think it did. I'm not sure at what point though. Either at the end of Battle of Merrilor or Shayol Ghul. He is no longer ta'veren anyway so he's not going to hear any more dice.

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I have a quick question - one that bugged me last night during my read. I was tired and might have missed it though.

 

Did Mat's dice ever stop rolling in his head? I kept waiting for it and it never came.

 

Yes - when he kills Fain and decides to leave the dagger instead of taking it.  Right after he makes that decision the dice stop rattling in his head.

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I like this theory.  Seems to me that maybe Nakomi could be the Creator's Shaidar Haran?  

 

That's interesting!  That fits in a bit with what I had been thinking about her being "Mother Earth", so to speak.  When she leaves Avienda she says "I have to go deal with nature".  The Creator's Hand on earth WOULD be like a Mother Earth figure.

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Frickin hilarious exchange at Theoryland touching on the topic of why Elayne wasn't queen in Avi's vision.

 

Originally Posted by Davian93

Elayne was disposed in favor of her daughter after her 35th kidnapping. The Andoran treasury simply ran out of ransom funds at that point.

 

Dom

LOL. That came shortly after the peasants uprising known as the "Ransom Tax Revolts"

Gleemen prone to hyperbole turned this into "The Fifty Kidnappings of Queen Elayne". It's very popular, as it's one of those where the audience participate in the tale. At the end of each chapter of the tale, the Gleeman asks the audience "And then guess what?" and they chant back "and then they paid to get her back."

 

Mid Fourth Age Mothers commonly invoke her story to warn their little girls not to go play out of their sight "don't let your little sister out of your sight, she'll pull an Elayne on us!". By then the tale has become "The Hundred flights of Elayne the runaway".

sight "don't let your little sister out of your sight, she'll pull an Elayne on us!". By then the tale has become "The Hundred flights of Elayne the runaway".
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There's simply so much! First question: How long before the Oath Rod goes away? They elected Cadsuane Amyrlin, and Cadsuane is near her death. If there's anyone who would hear the info on the Oath Rod, and simply refuse to die holding on to it, its Cadsuane. And as Amyrlin, she'll be able to smack sense, liberally. I suspect the OR will be soon gone, and with it, Egwene's stopgap solution for the Kin.

 

I actually think the Oath Rod will be the justification that will eventually be used to convince the Seanchan to abandon the sul'dam and damane. The notion is that channelers shouldn't be able to run around without some form of leash. The Oath Rod will be their leash in the future. I'm actually surprised Egewene didn't bring this up during her conversation/confrontation with Tuon.

Edited by Trueself
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It is implied that Rand found the song I believe (when he is with Mat in front of Tuon). Will wanderer Rand travel with the tinkers or Ogier and give them the song?

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It is implied that Rand found the song I believe (when he is with Mat in front of Tuon). Will wanderer Rand travel with the tinkers or Ogier and give them the song?

There is no song.

 

 

Interview: Aug 27th, 1999 Troy Terry

Seriously, though, any bets on whether the Tinkers will ever find the Song? I bet it's the harvest song from Rand's Aiel memories.

STEVEN COOPER

I asked RJ about this when he was in Melbourne last week, and (amazingly) got a straight answer.

Robert Jordan

The Song the Tinkers are seeking is the song Rand heard in Rhuidean—or, to be exact, the memories of that song and others like it have become merged, over the years, into the concept of one mystical Song.

There is the talent of having the "voice" however.

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There's simply so much! First question: How long before the Oath Rod goes away? They elected Cadsuane Amyrlin, and Cadsuane is near her death. If there's anyone who would hear the info on the Oath Rod, and simply refuse to die holding on to it, its Cadsuane. And as Amyrlin, she'll be able to smack sense, liberally. I suspect the OR will be soon gone, and with it, Egwene's stopgap solution for the Kin.

 

I actually think the Oath Rod will be the justification that will eventually be used to convince the Seanchan to abandon the sul'dam and damane. The notion is that channelers shouldn't be able to run around without some form of leash. The Oath Rod will be their leash in the future. I'm actually surprised Egewene didn't bring this up during her conversation/confrontation with Tuon.

 

it is a good reason but then look at the white tower they are going to be doing student exchanges with aiel and windfinders, two cultures that have channelers and never had a need for the oath rod. there's a lot of lore added to the oath rod, and it wasn't something the aes sedai did after the breaking. trying to remember if it was a custom added after hawkwing or after the trolloc wars, but either way it was just something the randland aes sedai did, i assume, to help maintain their position of women circle over the continent, but only because something made people doubt the aes sedai integrity. this wasn't needed with the aiel, sea folk or in shara. seanchan is another matter though.

 

the dark one is gone, so swearing to tell no lies and to say you're not a darkfriend might not be needed anymore. and then there's the next amyrlin, cadsuane. she got cornered right, so she can't possibly run away from a summons and as if the hall would reject her. then there's the kin long life span and cadsuane's very soon to come death date for cadsuane. then there's the male aes sedai. no oath road for them, yet here's a soon to be amyrlin who is conveniently very well suited to dealing with male channellers and who better to usher in a union between ashaman and aes sedai

 

i mean all the pieces fit to me: no more oath rod

 

the meeting between tuon and egweene, and tuon losing self control about placing a colar on the neck of the empress, the conviction of leilwin shipless to bring about change for the empire, the captive aiel wise one damane, i guess the tar valon captives too, and to a lesser degree maybe mat, are going to be the things that could bring about change in the randland seanchan to consider abandoning enslaving channelers

 

but there's still the continent of seanchan to reconquer, which tuon is going to find to be a hard job to do without the one power. then there's the simple fact that eventually channelling is just going to be lost eventually and that could very well happen in the near future. when there's no more channeling there's no more damane, and in aviendha rhuidean visions, technology seems to rule the not so distant future

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I am not certain if this is the correct thread for this, but if not I apologize in advance.

 

There are a few questions I was left lingering with:

 

1) What did Rand do at the end to light his pipe? The first thing I thought of was that he was actually in Tel'aran'rhiod, but that doesn't make sense. Is it simply him controlling reality? That seems a bit odd.

 

2) What was the Chekhov's Gun? I read the book thoroughly but it has been some time since I have re-read the series, so I must have mentally skipped over this. Was it the TP Traveling?

 

3) Going along with the second question, I almost missed whatever Lucker's was refering to here, "There is a thing in aMoL that may look like a mistake to some, but is not to any. The answer is clearly stated in tDR, and you can work out both what the issue is and what the answer is from that and what you know." What was this?

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1) What did Rand do at the end to light his pipe? The first thing I thought of was that he was actually in Tel'aran'rhiod, but that doesn't make sense. Is it simply him controlling reality? That seems a bit odd.

 

Rand is now able to control reality the way other people control Tel'aran'rhiod. Learned in all that pattern-weaving practice he got with the Dark One. At least the take on it I had.

 

And, honestly; if he can treat the real world the way Perrin can treat Tel'aran'rhiod, who needs channeling? 

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Finished a quick read yesterday. Will reread but no time now.
Generally liked without being over-enthusiastic
Points that occurred to me. Sorry if this seems like carping but they were downers
1. How can Pevara directly say Dobser cannot hear when she knows he can?
2. Inconsistency in Lanfear's role. Why is the GLoD preserving her as a prisoner if indeed, she is that?
How does she manage to slide in and out of TAR so casually after Moridin has been warned?
How can she march into town and order Slayer around so casually if she's a prisoner? If it's not her,then who is it ?
Why doesn't she just kill Perrin at the end instead of using Compulsion?
How can she use Compulsion while channeling in the presence of her cour'savra?
What happens to above cour'savra - does it cease to function or does Rand end up with it?
3. Generic disappointment with Shara being used. Remember joking years ago about thousands of silk clad channelers appearing out of the blue.
Also, given Graendal's connection with Shara, how can she not know about Bao the Wyld?
4. Who on Seanchan is Krisa the assassin-hiring, gray man user? The "usurper" - is she Tuon's sister? Wasn't the entire royal family wiped out?
5.If Demandred recruited Taim, how did he retain his sanity for so many years? He must have been a non-DF when he declared dragon-hood. How did he pick up all the mannerisms - "so-called Aiel" in such a short time? More mystery.
6. Demandred has shown no signs of being a nutter who takes unnecessary risks. Nor is he stupid. Why doesn't he know Rand is busy in SG? We've seen him use TAR before - doesn't he have sufficient intelligence to find out about SG and to keep track of Moridin?
A great general who hates getting his hands dirty is also a blademaster? Ok...
7. Alanna - if she can channel enough to release the bond, why didn't she fry Moridin earlier while he and Rand were locked together?
Min, Elayne an Avi not only remain functional, they don;t really reference stuff coming through the bond at all while he and the GloD are chatting. Odd
8. Sad end to Fain after all the buildup.Hilarious new name for Mashadar BTW.
9. Nakomi, Rand's thinking fire, Callandor being a True Power angreal, the fat man being found again, all seemed slightly forced. The plot could have moved in the same direction without them. 
10. Tthe number of troops, trollocs and especially channeler numbers went haywire. Channelers generally proved much less effective. Why didn;t either side concentrate channelers in one place and nuke the opposition there, folowed by rinse and repeat?
11. Moggy under-utilised onscreen but this is minor.
Despite all this and its entirely possible I missed important pertinent detail, liked the book. 
 

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There was plenty of evidence that Shara would enter the story at some point, mostly based on the White Book, but also foreshadowing in the novels.

 

As to Alanna, she was unconscious for a lot of the time, and frying someone who is bound to someone else possibly, might be a really bad idea.

 

Most Generals, at least in Randland, started as troops, or trained with troops or came from noble families and trained extensively with swords. Demandred, Bel'al and LTT all were swordmasters, seemingly rediscovered before the bore.

 

Ya, the fat man was mostly to answer a common fan question about where it went.

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I'm been big on the deal Rand would cut with the Seanchan paralleling the deal the US and UK cut with the Soviet Union against Nazi Germany, but the post-TG state of the world also strongly suggests pre-Civil War USA. The Seanchan hold channelers as slaves, and that is anathema to the rest of Randland. Channelers from outside Seanchan territory will travel there and be captured, and their people will want them back. Damane will escape and the non-Seanchan will be loathe to return them. So much of the Seanchan' system relied on its uniformity and the lack of any visible alternative. Now the Seanchan will be able to hear of and presumably travel to lands where channelers walk free. The Seanchan's best brainwashing efforts aside, damane will still occasionally flee. They will learn of the outside world and take note. Women (and men) who suspect they may be able to channel will flee to non-Seanchan lands. I think this is more dangerous to the Seanchan system that the knowledge that sul'dam can learn to channel. It's also probably the best possible solution. The good guys never would have won without the Seanchan, and the Seanchan would never have immediately given up their system (nor could they have). But now there is a possibility of a peaceful solution, a gradual emancipation, rather than resolution by war (although that is still likely) (Min's newfound position will help as well).

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There was plenty of evidence that Shara would enter the story at some point, mostly based on the White Book, but also foreshadowing in the novels.

 

Well we have to leave the BWB out of it obviously. Curious to see what you think was foreshadowing for Shara.

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Well, it was pretty minor in the books, but it was discussed. It wasn't necessarily evidence they would enter the War, but how could they not? There was speculation from the Rhuarc I think that they had been affected by the Trolloc wars but never spoke of it. A few things like that with people talking about it and various Forsaken wondering about it.

 

Why can't we look to the BWB? If we don't do that, we don't know shit about what went down during the AOL other than what Rand things or talks about in the novels and of course the Rhuiden trip.

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Oh it has some nice supplementary info but it can't be used as "foreshadowing" or evidence for things that are going to happen in the books. Again recall that it's supposedly written by a "third age" historian and as such has mistakes. It's not really considered canon and is totally held apart from the novels. We can use it as evidence to support things but certainly was not intended to set up parts of the story down the line.

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The sea folk think Aeil eat their dead, they aren't accurate either and that's in the present day and age. I assumed we see something of Shara ever since I read the BWB.

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So what exactly was Slayer's key role in helping Rand succeed? He was formed from Isam and Luc. Luc went to the Blight because of Gitaro's advice. If he hadn't gone, there wouldn't have been a Slayer (presumably, or it would have been just Isam), but I don't see how it would have had any affect on the Light's victory. He kills wolves, battles Perrin a few times, and eventually gets killed, but I don't recall any major "if Slayer wasn't involved, then character X wouldn't have done Y, and the Shadow could have won". Tigraine would have gone to the Aiel Waste anyway and wound up giving birth to Rand. So why was he sent to the Blight?

Edited by athrian
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I thought about this last night. How would Rand's interactions with the Aeil be different if his bio Dad was still alive?

 

I think that is the service Luc provided, he killed Rand's Dad, thereby preventing Rand from going too native when he came to the Aeil.

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So what exactly was Slayer's key role in helping Rand succeed? He was formed from Isam and Luc. Luc went to the Blight because of Gitaro's advice. If he hadn't gone, there wouldn't have been a Slayer (presumably, or it would have been just Isam), but I don't see how it would have had any affect on the Light's victory. He kills wolves, battles Perrin a few times, and eventually gets killed, but I don't recall any major "if Slayer wasn't involved, then character X wouldn't have done Y, and the Shadow could have won". Tigraine would have gone to the Aiel Waste anyway and wound up giving birth to Rand. So why was he sent to the Blight?

It was only rumored that Gitara told Luc to go to the Blight. It's entirely possible that someone from the Shadow did the deed instead, making Gitara the convenient explanation.

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Well, that would mean a Black Ajah was wandering around there, able to weave the Mist of Mirrors at the same time that Gitara was counselor to the Queen and spending tons of time with Luc and Tigraine. So, it's only a rumour, but it seems very likely it was actually her, so we should probably think of some reason why she sent him up there. I guess Foretellings are messages from the Pattern/Creator?

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