Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Post-aMoL Speculation & Discussion (Full Spoilers)

Recommended Posts

I don't know if this has been brought up earlier but did King Roedran survive? I have been considering the likelyhood of renewed warfare and I definitely think he could be a troublemaker, Thom (or someone) commented early on in the series how many men a united Murandy could muster, and of course he would want that land the Andorans stole from him, and ELayne would be disinclined to return it. There is also the question of who shall rule Illian, with Mattin certainly having a claim but I could see Elayne putting in a claim for her children, and perhaps Gregorian might decide to make himself president (or king). Just a few loose ends I thought were interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He might not agreed with the collars, but might have agreed that there needs to be some way to keep their powers in check


That doesn't really square with what we know of the history however. He had an issue with Bonwhin, not all AS pre Ishy. His first wife Amaline was pro-Tar Valon and his second was said to be a channeler. He had an AS advisor and AS served as Governors throughout his empire. Then Ishy shows up and...

BWB

It is on that proximity of dates (late summer, Moerad became a counselor; early autumn, Hawkwing dismissed Aes Sedai from his service) and the startling fact that Moerad seemed openly contemptuous of Aes Sedai that all theories concerning him rest.

 

But he would be more than just Hawkwing, for all we know his other lives are Alexander the Great, Cortez, George Washington and Jefferson Davis, that may further influence him in the "Yay slavery" direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt it but might be interesting to see if the encyclopedia touches on past life's...

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that the heroes of the horn have a "default" personality.  Take Birgitte.  She remembers her past lives, and she was not Birgitte in all of them, but her personailty and character were still more or less quintisentially "Birgitte."

I'd have to assume the same goes for Hawkwing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that the heroes of the horn have a "default" personality.  Take Birgitte.  She remembers her past lives, and she was not Birgitte in all of them, but her personailty and character were still more or less quintisentially "Birgitte."

I'd have to assume the same goes for Hawkwing.

But what does that mean? As BS said, Hawkwing was not just king Arthur but Alexander the Great as well, just because they did not practice slavery in Randland does not mean he is against the idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How long before the peace of the Dragon gives way before natural impulses? I'd say by the first fifty-sixty years there'd be serious low-simmering tensions and then stuff blows up into a big conflagration.

remember the dreams that aviendha had of her children being alive and young when they were fighting the sharans, so the dragons peace will probably break up pretty soon after that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But that vision could be changed. Remember when Nynaeve caught up with her after the Last Battle to question her, when she was talking to rest of the Wise Ones, they were talking about the visions. She was saying that since Rhuarc died, the vision could be changed. Rhuarc must have been part of those visions she saw and since he's dead it may not come true. And the (I think it was Bair) who said they just could be a warning of what could happen instead. So the Dragon's peace could be maintained, no fighting would occur and the Aiel wouldn't be destroyed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya, I have a hard time believing AH would condone the enslavement of people who can channel in his name. He may have has some issues with AS but, with the ability to take and learn from all of his lives, I don't think he'd agree with the a'dam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd really like to know if Hawking really went to meet Tuon and what he said to her. Since he has the ability like Ragamuffin said to learn from his lifes and those of others, he could be convinced by now that Aes Sedai are not really bad. I'm sure I read in one of the books that he initailly had a favourable disposition towards AS and it was only after Moridin came into his court that he grew not to like them. So when he went to see Tuon he could've said something to maybe convince her that AS are not an evil force to be collared. It could go a long way in maintaining the Dragon's peace. If Tuon agreed, all sul'dam would follow and agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah but does Hawking want to maintain the Dragon's Peace or would he rather see one land, one people, under the rule of his heir? Furthermore, Fortuona would not necessarily obey what he wants, she respects him but he has been dead one thousand years, Queen Elizabeth might respect William the Conqueror, but that does not mean she would necessarily take his advice on how to govern a kingdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I would imagine that Rand will live until the last of Elayne, Min, or Aviendha dies (obviously, Min will die first unless there's some kind of assassination thing). 

 

As I'd expect Elayne or Aviendha to live for several hundred years, and I'd expect Rand to stay alive with them, I'd imagine that any breach of the Dragon's Peace in the next few hundred years will be met by Rand showing up to lay an epic reality-bend smackdown. 

 

I think we got enough glimpses in the way-forward ter'angreal in ToM to know generally how science / society will progress (with the exception that we probably won't get the Seanchan v. everybody wars now). 

 

My big question: It seems at least somewhat logical that Perrin's thought that he and Rand and Mat are no longer ta'veren is actually true. That's going to epically suck for Mat, since his luck is based on his being ta'veren, and I'd imagine that that's going to result in him dying almost immediately, as he jumps into some situation that relies on him being lucky to get out of, except he's not lucky any more. It will also epically suck for Perrin, since Perrin's ability to lead and unite people is based on his being ta'veren, and since he's now king of Saldaea (probably?), that country is going to go to rack and ruin as soon as he gets in charge. As a result, I'm just going to assume that Perrin was wrong there. 

 

Good points especially the one with Mat.Perrin has enough help to run Saldea,doubtful if he will be fighting any more wars. Mat on the other hand is going to live in the Seachan culture with assasinations all over the place.

 

I think that Perrin found his leadership abilities through being ta'veren, and people changed their minds about him because of it, or he got lucky with chance favouring him, but he also learned and grew on the way, and I believe by the end he had gained more than enough skills to lead. And he'll always have the wolf in him, and that folding in and out of Tel'aran'rhiod trick to travel would enable anyone to have power and leadership skills. Don't see how not being Ta'veren would change his new skill.

 

As to Mat, the same applies, I think his reflexes and all those memories of previous battle commanders that he was given will have remained unchanged in him when he ceased to be Ta'veren, but his luck at dice would probably go back down to a normal level, which would be fine as he is ridiculously rich now, so he doesn't need the money. With his impossible luck it became hard to find a game of dice as everywhere he went people either accused him of cheating or stopped wanting to play with him as they'd end up out of pocket every time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yet another topic which is sadly untouched for a year and a half.  Come back everyone please!

 

So here's my VERY LONG and tortuous take on the ending - congratulations to anyone who manages to get through it:

 

Obviously RJ/BS left the ending very open deliberately. People can decide for themselves what the next few years/4th Age will bring and unless your theories are really really stupid, then it's not really possible to be wrong, because there is no right answer.  To that end I choose to take the most optimistic view possible, basically as close to a happily ever after as the ending allows. Apart from the fact that it makes me feel better inside, I justify it on the basis that the end of the Second Age saw the world truly torn apart, with a centuries-long geological apocalypse. IMO, the end of the Third Age is about reconciliation and bringing people together - in this interpretation, Rand 'breaks' the world by breaking all former ties (e.g. new role for the Aiel, uniting Andor and Cairhien, the Dragon Peace etc.etc.)

 

On the characters themselves, this is what I CHOOSE to believe (because ultimately it can't be more than that, unless Harriet changes her mind about more books), so if you disagree then fair enough.

 

Rand - lives the gleeman life for a few years (say, 2-5 years), very content in his lack of burden (duty is heavier than a mountain). After the few years have passed he decides to meet up with the three women because you know OBVS.  I believe that his new-found power is such that he CAN appear in his old body, and does so when he visits the women.  I also believe he would reveal his survival to more people.  Firstly, Nynaeve is on the verge of working it out already and we know she is unlikely just to let that one go. Secondly, Cadsuane knows (which always annoyed me), and while I believe she would keep it a secret, I also believe that he would visit her at some point to make sure she does. Thirdly, an absolutely crucial part of the epilogue for me is where it says that "JUST" Rand al'Thor wakes up.  We know that rand al'Thor loves his father and is entirely aware of how important meeting his father was again to his ultimate victory (leading as it did to his revelation on Dragonmount) and how important Tam was generally in helping Rand become the man that defeated the DO.  I therefore do not believe that Rand would let his father die thinking that he was already dead, so I think he visits Tam at some point, spending some time with him before he passes.  On a similar note, Rand knows what a strong father figure did for him so I think it's unlikely he'd let his super-children grow up without him at all - though perhaps he would only reveal himself once they're old enough to know not to say anything). So I think his 6 children will grow up knowing him. In my head he appears as a father-like gleeman figure while they're young, similar to Thom merrilin in Elayne's youth, and then reveals the truth when they're a bit older.

 

The people I think he would reveal himself to are, therefore: the 3 women, Tam, Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Lan (because Nyn will find out anyway and he trusts them both), Mat and Perrin (because he trusts them too, and likes them  - he would probably want to spend some of his new life with friends and not just wandering indefinitely, right?) and his children. Also, possibly Moiraine though I'm undecided on that - they'd already reconciled happily in AMoL and there's not much more for them to say to each other.

 

The one thing that bothers me is that Avi and Elayne are going to live for another ~400 years and, we assume, Min isn't. (BUT: do we know for sure that Min doesn't get an extended life from her 'doomseeing', I appreciate it's a hell of an assumption on no evidence at all, but still, knowledge of people with her power seems pretty nonexistent even at the WT). So I like to think that he visits Min first and offers her the long life the others will have so that they can all spend the same time together and I see no reason why she wouldn't accept it (I told you I was taking the most optimistic view possible).  Therefore the four of them live very long and happy lives together.

 

Perrin - I think Perrin's arc is the most complete and happily ever after, right? Lord of the Two Rivers, happily married to the Queen of Saldaea. A life full of good leadership and kids, with not much interesting going on.  The only other thing to add is that some people on this thread seem to think he can't be Lord of TR and 'King' of Saldaea at the same time because they're so far apart, but with Travelling I don't see why that would be a problem.

 

Mat - The most interesting possibilities of the three ta'varen, which I think is not surprising because RJ was not done with his/Tuon's story. The obvious storyline for Outriggers is Tuon and Mat's attempt to reunify Seanchan.  I think Min became Tuon's Doomsayer in AMoL as a precursor to her being a major character in Outriggers (and also to give her something to do during the LB), but given that we're not getting outriggers I've decided that Min can have a happy, peaceful life with rand in the Westlands. I think Mat and Tuon ARE eventually successful in unifying Seanchan and I think she would finally tell him she loves him - something which I think she didn't do in AMoL because their story hadn't yet finished.  I also hold an optimistic view on the damane question.  Despite what BS said, I think Hawkwing would have been unhappy about the slavery (it was only because of Ishmael that he hated AS right, I've seen threads that agree with my view on this: that BS forgot the events when answering the question). People seem to have an issue with Seanchan culture changing too much, but my riposte would be three-fold: Seanchan is a complete mess at the moment (thanks Semirhage) so cultural changes in the reunification are possible, if not likely. Secondly, the Empress is basically God to the Seanchan. If she says one day 'all damane are free', then that becomes the law. And thirdly, I don't see why an end to slavery could not be a part of Rand's general 'Breaking of the World'. So perhaps it would take a while but I believe we'd see the end of channeller slavery during Tuon's reign - though I'm less optimistic about dacovale...

 

On ta'varen - many people seem utterly convinced the three are no longer ta'varen, which if I understand correctly, is based on a short passage of Perrin's where he thinks of Rand and no colours swirl and he thinks that maybe he's no longer ta'varen.  But they were ta'varen for ages before the colours appeared so I don't see how this is definitive proof, and given my optimistic view, I think Mat and Perrin ARE ta'varen.  I think that Rand is no longer a classic ta'varen, but rather a super-ta'varen who can alter the pattern consciously rather than in the uncontrolled unconscious way they all did before.

 

Elayne & Avi - Long-serving and honourable Queen of Andor and Cairhien. I know she has a lot of haters for her borderline-suicidal nature but I always liked her and she IS a good queen when she's not putting herself in ridiculous danger. I think the Aiel would set up HQs around the Westlands, with a major one in Andor and in this way Avi and Elayne can be together.  I am 100% in love with Aviendha so all my theories of her future involve her being very happy and awesome. I very, very firmly believe (separate from my love for her) that Avi's vision of a doomed Aiel was averted by her 'boon'. IMO that was the whole point, that Rand would leave the Aiel out of the Dragon peace thinking it was a reward not to bind them, but by not giving them a role he doomed them.  Therefore by giving them a role he saved them. The 'remnant of a remnant' refers to the culture, not the people. The Aiel will be little like they were before - only a remnant.

 

Sidenote: I think there's an analogy here with Aram. Like the Aiel he was a follower of the Way of the Leaf who betrayed his beliefs. But as Elyas points out to Perrin, Perrin didn't give him anything else to believe in, apart from his sword and killing. Therefore once Masema messed with his head Aram was a danger. Similarly, in Avi's vision, Rand hadn't given the Aiel a purpose, so they drifted aimlessly until the Seanchan killed them.  By giving them a purpose he has saved them and Perrin could have done the same for Aram (I really feel like he's basically the only person that Perrin let down)

 

I'm posting this now even though I have more to say on the WT and the BT and Malkier as this is already so long that I doubt anyone will read it :(

Edited by I wear the hadori

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@i wear the hadori

i read all your post, and i have to say that my vision of the future is very similar. Also, I always thought that Egwene would be one of the Heroes of the Horn in some point (with or without the Horn) and i believe that she will be alive in TAR before her reencarnation (probably she will be involved with some of the main characters and the WT when she born again)

The only thing that it bothers me is this: if Rand, Mat and Perrin continue being Ta'veren, Why RJ gave to Ta'veren's nature an ending date? I only can think that his idea was make that the three of them stop being Ta'veren in some point. I don't think that Rand's new power have anything to do with be a Ta'veren (based on my last point). He had acces to the pattern himself for a moment in SG, and, i think, that experience gave to him a new perspective of the existence that gave to him the power of changing things (something like Neo's epiphany in matrix)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From my understanding is once you are a Ta'vern doesn't mean you will always be.  From my understanding once the pattern no longer has need of you then you are free.

 

Think the only thing I really disagree with your post is for me I couldn't see Min staying with the Seanchan who she really doesn't like.  I really could see her seeking out Rand some time to be with him since out of the three she is really the only one with the freedom to do that,

 

The one reason I don't see the end of Seanchan slavery is simply during the series it was OMG is this is know it will tear the empire apart, but then when it becomes known even Tuon didn't seem to think it was a huge deal.  Was almost like all the hiding the secret wasn't really needed.  Not sure if this was a BS error.  Though some might depend on what Hawkwing talked to Tuon about after the last battle.

Edited by Sabio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perrin -  The only other thing to add is that some people on this thread seem to think he can't be Lord of TR and 'King' of Saldaea at the same time because they're so far apart, but with Travelling I don't see why that would be a problem.

.

Actually, I believe that Perrin making Tam a Lord before he ran off to battle Slayer and cover Rand's back in the Last battle was the BS's main reason/mechanism  for  showing us  that Tam will be Steward post aMoL. Not Perrin's possible death; otherwise this scene is really unnecessary. 

 

 

“I’m hereby making Tam al’Thor a lord,” Perrin called. “I am making him steward over the Two Rivers in the name of his son, the Dragon Reborn. He carries all of my authority, which is the Dragon’s own authority. If I do not survive this battle, Tam succeeds me.”

.

It now shows us that Tam will be Steward in TR, while the Wolf King rules alongside his wife-Queen in Saldea after the LB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...