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Post-aMoL Speculation & Discussion (Full Spoilers)


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One thing that I would LOVE to  know is how some our most knowledgeable posters could have been so wrong on their predictions that Nynaeve would pull Rand out of TAR after a death. Were the foreshadowing used for that prediction so ambiguous? Also the predictions that Nynaeve would heal someone thats been dead 3 days

 

A good author will of course foreshadow what he's going to do, but for major things like this it's probably-wise to throw out some red-herrings. No doubt we were supposed to suspect some of these other things, otherwise it would have been too straightforward.

Yes I understand that perfectly. What I was getting at was that anybody that had argued against those predictions was pretty much shot down and made to feel like they didn't know what they were talking about and confronted with the stated foreshadowing as prove that they were wrong. The bottom line is that foreshadowing may be open to interpretation and is not fool proof.

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How long before the borderlander's start playing Daes Dae'mar? No blight and Shadowspawn should be exterminated shortly.

 

Much of the vegetation has died off and food stores are finished. Entire nations have been depopulated. How many will succumb to famine before the next harvest? The only nation I really see as serving as a short term bread basket is Tear. Their peasants sure didn't travel all the way north...

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Cadsuane will make a fine Amyrlin. She's what an Aes Sedai should be like and they can model themselves after her.

 

 

 

 

Egwene is dead, but she did have a few good ideas that she left behind to work with.

 

 

 

 

Logain will bring glory to the male channelers and earn them respect from the world.

 

 

 

 

Tam will be Lord of the Two Rivers while Perrin goes to Saldea and rules with Faile.

 

 

 

 

Bonded Ashaman and Aes Sedai will start producing children that are more and more powerful with the one power and teach them all from an early age. Bring on the New Age.

 

 

 

 

Rand will wander and enjoy life. He'll also drop in on his women. Min will stay with the Seanchan for a time. Elayne will rule her kingdon. Aviendah will heal and lead her people in the new Age.

 

 

 

 

Thom and Moiriane will have many adventures and travel the world.

 

 

 

 

Mat will help Tuon take Seanchan back and restore order.

 

 

 

 

Mymeave and Lan will rule and rebuild Malkier with the aid of the Borderlands and the Ogier.

 

 

 

 

Birgitte will be born as one of Elayne's babies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Wait, did she say the mother was in labor? Because the baby coulda just been like, created. Got a brain in the womb.

AMoL "Epilogue"

Now. Somewhere, a woman is preparing to give birth, and I will go to that body. It's happening.

Elayne's children are most likely Calian and Shiva, the heralds of a new age.

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One thing that I would LOVE to  know is how some our most knowledgeable posters could have been so wrong on their predictions that Nynaeve would pull Rand out of TAR after a death. Were the foreshadowing used for that prediction so ambiguous? Also the predictions that Nynaeve would heal someone thats been dead 3 days

 

A good author will of course foreshadow what he's going to do, but for major things like this it's probably-wise to throw out some red-herrings. No doubt we were supposed to suspect some of these other things, otherwise it would have been too straightforward.

Yes I understand that perfectly. What I was getting at was that anybody that had argued against those predictions was pretty much shot down and made to feel like they didn't know what they were talking about and confronted with the stated foreshadowing as prove that they were wrong. The bottom line is that foreshadowing may be open to interpretation and is not fool proof.

Couldn't that mean Talmanes, how long did he survive after the fade hit him?  He was pretty much dead when Ny got to him.  When a fade hits you its consdiered fatal so he might be considered "dead".  Just grasping at straws here.

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The POWER of the DR was beyond the Creator and Shai'tan at one point, able to destroy Shai'tan.  Now he can bend reality to his will.

 

I was surprised at how easily he toyed with Shai'tan at the end. 

 

 

I hope we see a few novels set 20-100 years from AMOL, I would love to read them. 

 

People keep referring to what Rand does with the OP. I believe that it's not him "bending reality" or anything that has to do with the pattern. I think it's because of when he was channeling all 3 powers at once in Shayol Ghul has allowed him to do what the Aes Sedai were attempting to do in the Age of Legends when opening the bore, to use 1 Universal power (Saidin and Saidar, because the True Power is both halves combined but channeled through the Dark One). He doesn't feel the OP or having to reach for it because it's already a part of him. In the end it's different because the Dark One is removed as the "Middle man". Think about it, nobody ever sensed the True Power being channeled. It's not some "matrix" version of bending reality.

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Cadsuane will make a fine Amyrlin. She's what an Aes Sedai should be like and they can model themselves after her. Egwene is dead, but she did have a few good ideas that she left behind to work with. Logain will bring glory to the male channelers and earn them respect from the world. Tam will be Lord of the Two Rivers while Perrin goes to Saldea and rules with Faile. Bonded Ashaman and Aes Sedai will start producing children that are more and more powerful with the one power and teach them all from an early age. Bring on the New Age. Rand will wander and enjoy life. He'll also drop in on his women. Min will stay with the Seanchan for a time. Elayne will rule her kingdon. Aviendah will heal and lead her people in the new Age. Thom and Moiriane will have many adventures and travel the world. Mat will help Tuon take Seanchan back and restore order. Mymeave and Lan will rule and rebuild Malkier with the aid of the Borderlands and the Ogier. Birgitte will be born as one of Elayne's babies.

 

Except that Cadsuane mishandled Rand because, all Cadsuane knows how to do is simply bully people until they agree with her. You can't expect to get the reforms necessary to fix the problems with Aes Seda aloofness. The person that Aes Sedai should be emulating was Nyneave since she was the one who actually cared about helping people while ignoring what "was good for the tower". As for bonded Ashaman the only two couples at the end of the book are Logain and Gabrelle, and Pevara and Androl, you can't expect the Reds to actually go through with the whole bonding Ashaman thing especially considering that most of the non-traditionalist reds ended up being Turned.

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Except that Cadsuane mishandled Rand because, all Cadsuane knows how to do is simply bully people until they agree with her. You can't expect to get the reforms necessary to fix the problems with Aes Seda aloofness.

This is unequivocally false and totally misses the reality of her character. Per RJ she is "remarkably adaptable" and bullying is just one tool of many in her kit. We see her assess each person and tailor nuanced approaches accordingly based on their actions. She carefully studied Rand and was the catalyst for his epiphany on DM(yes it took a lucky turn at the end), Rand says so himself. Cadusane is the archtype for what AS should be and we see her treat both AS and non AS equally and have a constant drive to make those around her better. The lesson that shaped her life the most came from a wilder so she is very aware that AS pride and aloofness needs to change, especially given the reforms Egwene already has set in motion.

 

Here is some good reading so you can get a better understanding of what Cadsuane has been about and how she studied/helped Rand.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2010/03/winters-heart-read-through-post-7-about.html

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Except that Cadsuane mishandled Rand because, all Cadsuane knows how to do is simply bully people until they agree with her. You can't expect to get the reforms necessary to fix the problems with Aes Seda aloofness.

This is unequivocally false and totally misses the reality of her character. Per RJ she is "remarkably adaptable" and bullying is just one tool of many in her kit. We see her assess each person and tailor nuanced approaches accordingly based on their actions. She carefully studied Rand and was the catalyst for his epiphany on DM(yes it took a lucky turn at the end), Rand says so himself. Cadusane is the archtype for what AS should be and we see her treat both AS and non AS equally and have a constant drive to make those around her better. The lesson that shaped her life the most came from a wilder so she is very aware that AS pride and aloofness needs to change, especially given the reforms Egwene already has set in motion.

 

Here is some good reading so you can get a better understanding of what Cadsuane has been about and how she studied/helped Rand.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2010/03/winters-heart-read-through-post-7-about.html

I maybe letting the way Sanderson wrote her (in particular the meeting with Tam) effect my judgement of her so I will probably re-read the parts she was in.

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Except that Cadsuane mishandled Rand because, all Cadsuane knows how to do is simply bully people until they agree with her. You can't expect to get the reforms necessary to fix the problems with Aes Seda aloofness.

This is unequivocally false and totally misses the reality of her character. Per RJ she is "remarkably adaptable" and bullying is just one tool of many in her kit. We see her assess each person and tailor nuanced approaches accordingly based on their actions. She carefully studied Rand and was the catalyst for his epiphany on DM(yes it took a lucky turn at the end), Rand says so himself. Cadusane is the archtype for what AS should be and we see her treat both AS and non AS equally and have a constant drive to make those around her better. The lesson that shaped her life the most came from a wilder so she is very aware that AS pride and aloofness needs to change, especially given the reforms Egwene already has set in motion.

 

Here is some good reading so you can get a better understanding of what Cadsuane has been about and how she studied/helped Rand.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2010/03/winters-heart-read-through-post-7-about.html

I maybe letting the way Sanderson wrote her (in particular the meeting with Tam) effect my judgement of her so I will probably re-read the parts she was in.

Yeah that scene is oft cited for really missing the mark with her character.

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The thing is, Cadsuane was completely right. It doesn't matter her methods, the fact is that if Rand went in the way he was even post-Dumai's Wells he would of opted for a terrible outcome, let alone when he was Darth Rand, The Last Battle didn't play out like Rand, or pretty much anyone else, thought it would. There was no real fight, just a bit of torture and a choice on the future of the world.

 

It wasn't until I read it that I saw how important Cadsuane was. I didn't hate her like many people did, but I thought her 'teaching him laughter and tears' was a pretty stupid thing and I didn't see how him winning like that would be worse than him losing.

 

Also interesting was the revelations on the degrees of winning. The DO turning the Dragon and then the Dragon dieing before he could let the DO do his world rebuilding/destruction is an interesting path.

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I cant stand Cadsuane either. I have come to grips with her being needed to help find Tam and help Rand rediscover himself. My problem with her is not the she was needed to help, my problem is the way she approaches it. She constantly calls him Boy and makes him grovel to her and on top of that all she does try to manipulate him to fit her standards.

 

Would it have been cool for Rand to straight up Slap an Aes Sedai or Cadsuane herself? No, holy hell would have been raised. What if he constantly called her Old lady, old one, ancient, etc instead of her real name? That is my problem with her. Your age doesn't grant you automatic respect. There are people in Jail that are 70 that dont deserve common respect. Treat people as equals and if she would have come clean from day one and really tried to help him and guide him, he may have skipped the whole Darth Rand phase. She would have been a Moraine 2.0.

 

I dont understand why he puts up with her for so long. I would have stilled her and sent her on her way but I am more ruthless than Rand was ever written.

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2 of Avi's children had black hair due to LTT.

No way. The only thing left from LTT is his soul and his memories. There is no DNA left to pass on genetic traits.

Yup you are right... they were fathered after TLB... using Moridin's body.  hehe i didn't think that through.

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I cant stand Cadsuane either. I have come to grips with her being needed to help find Tam and help Rand rediscover himself. My problem with her is not the she was needed to help, my problem is the way she approaches it. She constantly calls him Boy and makes him grovel to her and on top of that all she does try to manipulate him to fit her standards.

 

Would it have been cool for Rand to straight up Slap an Aes Sedai or Cadsuane herself? No, holy hell would have been raised. What if he constantly called her Old lady, old one, ancient, etc instead of her real name? That is my problem with her. Your age doesn't grant you automatic respect. There are people in Jail that are 70 that dont deserve common respect. Treat people as equals and if she would have come clean from day one and really tried to help him and guide him, he may have skipped the whole Darth Rand phase. She would have been a Moraine 2.0.

 

I dont understand why he puts up with her for so long. I would have stilled her and sent her on her way but I am more ruthless than Rand was ever written.

Thing about Cadsuane is she studies people and almost unfailingly treats them based on their own actions. In Rand's case we see that when he marches in with the Ashaman acting like a child making threats with the OP and get quickly called out on it. Her approach with Rand came after a very thorough intelligence gathering process and study of his character. After the way Rand had run rough shod over Moriane and then been tortured by the WT AS it really was the only path she could take. Moiraine of course said flat out Rand would need someone like Cads aroun:

 

tFoH

"He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

 

We see her initial assessment:

 

"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim

Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear."

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

 

We see her cognizant of the fact that the kidnapping had rightly made him mistrust all AS and realize the only path open to her so she used reverse psychology.

 

 

The al'Thor boy needed to be kept intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, and off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing. One way or another, anything that might interfere with that must be controlled or suppressed. Nothing could be allowed to influence him, or upset him, in the wrong way. Nothing.

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

 

 

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

 

 

Also as others have noted we know she was spot on, especially after AMoL.

 

"The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

"He is turning into a stone, Verin, and if he doesn't relearn that he's human, winning the Last Battle may not be much better than losing.

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:14 PM

Craig Jarvis, on 15 Jan 2013 - 15:03, said:snapback.png


The Sharans have been part of the series since book 1, they have been mentioned in every book since, there were Seanchan spies in Tear at an Inn and they reacted startlingly when they overheard another trader saying Silk comes from worms (this was a Jordan book KoD If I remember, not Sanderson).

According to Ideal Seek neither Shara or Sharans is referenced in tEotW. Nor are they mentioned in every book after. Although there could be non named references I would like to see why you believe the above? Regardless it most certainly came out of nowhere and threatened to overhwlem the Light v. Shadow aspect. In fact the LB was largely the Light v. Shara which is a problem on a number of levels.

 

lemme ask you a question that was asked in "almost every book"...  Where does silk come from?

 

Lands beyond the Aiel waste have been mentioned in every book.  Shara is not always mentioned by that name... I can't remember who said it but they stated that the sharans have been called by half a dozen different names and some of the sharans would call themselves 2 different names in the same meeting and deny that they spoke the first name to you when you asked. (book 4 - thom merrilin, I believe).

 

Early in the series, everytime they mention the Aiel War, they mention Cairhien trading beyond the Aiel waste, being just about the only nation with access to silk.

 

No Shara hasn't been in the series from the beginning...  only since about the first time they mentioned silk in any lengthy discussion.  And silk has been discussed ALOT in this series.  More so than wool and we are talking about a bunch of sheepherders.

 

Just because you didn't see it... doesn't mean it wasn't in there.  Go reread the series, I already have since Jan 8.  It is an eye opener.

 

Jordan left 200 pages of pretty much FINISHED text.  The last 50k words...   He left 5000 trees worth of filing cabinets with notes.  He had outlines of things to be acomplished.  places to be visited by certain characters, with the important events to happen to them and the outcomes of those encounters.  Not all of them made it into the books.  Sandersone was using those outlines... some had alot of detail, others only a skeleton. e.g. Egwene uses Vora's Rod to kill M'hael on the Heights with "the Flame of Tar Valon" a new Weave she develops to defeat Balefire without destroying the pattern, both end up dead, Egwene vaporized, and the M'Hael crystalized.  The whole struggle had to be filled in, but Sanderson didn't have her kill M'hael with a hip-shot .45 caliber bullet.  No, I haven't read other works by Sanderson.  I will eventually, I think he knocked these books out of the Park.  #1 on pretty much all the charts.

 

I do wonder what Mat would have been like if the series were completed by Jordan, but from what I read in the last 50K words (basically everything at Shao'ghul) Sanderson brought Mat to that point as gracefully as he could... I am happy.  You can go sit in the corner and suck your thumb, mumbling around it that "it's not fair!" all you want... You won't ever get any happier, until you "Let go."

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I've been thinking about Nakomi quite a bit lately. Wonder if someone can ask Sanderson this on Twitter or via some other medium. So, we know that Sanderson included Nakomi in ToM because of "something" he saw "deep" in RJ's notes. See tweet here. Sanderson also said that everything you read starting from the epiloge on was basically written by Jordan. here's an exact quote:

 

 

I read Robert Jordan's last scene back in 2007. The work wasn't done, of course, and I had a very long road ahead of me. And yet, I'd read the ending. We managed to get it into the final book virtually unchanged, with only a few minor tweaks here and there. The sequence (it is more than one scene) that I am referring to most of the time when I talk about this encompasses the entire epilogue of A Memory of Light. Once you get there, you can know you're reading Robert Jordan's words, though of course there are other scenes scattered through the book that he worked on too.

See http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/1136/Its-finally-out.

 

We know that the first POV in the epilogue is Rand departing Shayol Ghul. He then sees the grey-haired lady in Aiel garb that many of us have assumed is Nakomi. I wonder if the grey-haired lady's appearance was one of the "minor tweaks" Sanderson mentioned or whether RJ included her. Can someone send out a tweet to Sanderson on this? I just did but I'm not optimistic I'll get a response due to my low profile twitter presence.

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Craig you still aren't understanding how this process went. There was not a complete outline until Harriet pulled one together after his death. The notes were detailed in place and not so much in others. We have no idea if it was detailed down to the point of naming weaves and the like but based on interviews they were not that robust when it came to plot details. Again I reference you back to Brandon's quote I provided earlier and here is another describing the reality of the situation:

 

Brandon

Finally he spoke of plotting, and how sometimes Jordan’s notes have said two contradictory things ‘maybe I’ll do this, or maybe I’ll do this other completely opposite thing’. Brandon said he then often had to choose between them, or sometimes choose a third thing entirely.

 

As for the rest please don't presume to tell me what I did and didn't see. Once again you are wrong, silk is mentioned frequently. People wondering where it comes from... Not so much and certainly not in "almost every book". I very much aware of the references to Shara and helped people build theories around Dem's whereabouts so leave off with the "didn't notice".

 

Finally you seem to have some odd notions around literary critique. One can point out the very obvious flaws while still being grateful. I honestly am saddened we have reached a point in society where critique=hate somehow as that certainly isn't the case. Read my reaction in the OMG thread if you want to see my feelings on the topic.

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I've been thinking about Nakomi quite a bit lately. Wonder if someone can ask Sanderson this on Twitter or via some other medium. So, we know that Sanderson included Nakomi in ToM because of "something" he saw "deep" in RJ's notes. 

 

I know exactly what Brandon is talking about when he says that. But I'm not going to say anything else either. Maybe something more specific will come out someday.

 

I think Brandon would prefer the focus not to be on what was from the notes and what wasn't. But I also think it's perfectly natural for people to want to know.

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Finally you seem to have some odd notions around literary critique. One can point out the very obvious flaws while still being grateful. I honestly am saddened we have reached a point in society where critique=hate somehow as that certainly isn't the case. Read my reaction in the OMG thread if you want to see my feelings on the topic.

 

From the majority of what people see, they get the impression that you're nothing but disappointed in these books. It's not that people equate critique with hate, it's that most of your posts (that people see) are defending what you feel are valid criticisms instead of reading a full analysis or critique of the book. People get the wrong impressions because, from what they read, it seems like you have little positive to say, other than a quick line here or there. Don't brush off other people as if they don't understand what a critique is. Maybe there's a reason people come to those conclusions, even if they don't represent your true opinions.

 

I can see why most of your posts seem to be spent on the negative (though I've gotten a better understanding over time. Still, I think many have found the reaction you posted in the OMG thread surprising given what else they've read). It's a reaction to the people who deny they are there or refuse to see them or wish to argue with you, and it's tedious to have to qualify all your posts by including a full review in them. The same thing happens to me when I enter arguments; people misunderstand my position because of what most of my posts focus on, and I only focus on certain topics and not others because I feel like only some need to be addressed or need clarification.

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I think Brandon would prefer the focus not to be on what was from the notes and what wasn't. But I also think it's perfectly natural for people to want to know.

 

Thanks for the response. It's understandable why Mr. Sanderson would prefer the focus to be on the work itself, rather than on the writing process and his creative decisions as author.

 

Just for fun, let's assume that the grey-haired woman was in Jordan's original draft. Putting ourselves in BS's shoes, imagine the difficulty of trying to construct an explanation for her presence. Literally the only thing the reader knows about her is that she has grey hair, is dressed in Aiel-like clothing, and knows surprisingly a lot about what Rand is supposed to do. Making things worse, there's no mention of her directly except for loose hints, not directly of her, but something that might possibly be related to her "deep" within RJ's notes. This seems to be one of the matters that RJ wanted left unexplained or only hinted at. In fact, RJ wanted the hints to be so obscure, that he didn't seem to have included any hints in the 11/12 books that he wrote. If my assumptions are correct, I'm glad that BS at least gave us the one Nakomi scene to shed at least some light on the character. Imagine the shock and confusion of the reader if all we got were the few lines in the epilogue. 

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As mentioned by someone on Theoryland (I think it was Dom), the name Nakomi is probably a reference to Nokomis, whose name means "Grandmother" and "Daughter of the Moon." Nokomis was also connected to dreams.

 

So, RJ may have intended for Nakomi to be part of the story, or simply had notes about Nokomis that Brandon decided to use. Brandon's answer that Nakomi came from RJ's notes would apply in both cases.

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Finally you seem to have some odd notions around literary critique. One can point out the very obvious flaws while still being grateful. I honestly am saddened we have reached a point in society where critique=hate somehow as that certainly isn't the case. Read my reaction in the OMG thread if you want to see my feelings on the topic.

From the majority of what people see, they get the impression that you're nothing but disappointed in these books. It's not that people equate critique with hate, it's that most of your posts (that people see) are defending what you feel are valid criticisms instead of reading a full analysis or critique of the book. People get the wrong impressions because, from what they read, it seems like you have little positive to say, other than a quick line here or there. Don't brush off other people as if they don't understand what a critique is. Maybe there's a reason people come to those conclusions, even if they don't represent your true opinions.

 

I can see why most of your posts seem to be spent on the negative (though I've gotten a better understanding over time. Still, I think many have found the reaction you posted in the OMG thread surprising given what else they've read). It's a reaction to the people who deny they are there or refuse to see them or wish to argue with you, and it's tedious to have to qualify all your posts by including a full review in them. The same thing happens to me when I enter arguments; people misunderstand my position because of what most of my posts focus on, and I only focus on certain topics and not others because I feel like only some need to be addressed or need clarification.

I get your point Agitel, I guess I just draw a pretty big line between those who post reasoned critiques(along with the positives I might add as I have done) and say Mark D's rants.

 

Also there are a large number of people that just default to the "hater" card.

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