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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Jason Williams

Kindle release date - WTF?!!

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Before I deliver my rant I would like to extend my sympathies to Brandon for how this fantastic saga ended.

If this book is anything like your previous books, I am pretty sure it is going to be memorable. I wish Amazon would show a nice line of stars and not the two and a half it currently does.

That beeing said, I really get why it has come to this.

We are now writing 2013, there is no reason for us to still use dead trees to read on.

I find it arrogant of H. McDougal to force consumers into into buying this environment unfriendly paper brick. Just to cash in on a double take when many buy it again on kindle.

I will not be buying either, atleast not for a good while. I dont want to read this Final chapter of the saga while this smell still lingers. 

Kinda ruined it for me Harriet.

Harriet isn't forcing you to buy the book at all, in any format. And, frankly, I think the extra money gathered would be minute - some people will want both anyway, and many will just wait. I really doubt that double buyers who wouldn't have double bought anyway regardless of when it was released will be that numerous.

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Here is my thought on this: I do love a real book in my hands and I do respect the fact that many have chosen the path of the ebook, even if I will never own one. The issue is that it was already mentioned that the ebook would be months after the hardcover. Just as the case, all ebookers could have humbly waited for the ebook and even ignored that a physical book was even made. I will not presume there is a "war" against the physical and the electronic choice, thought it does seem so.

 

I respect foremost the decision  of this and I am happy. We can not forget the heritage of a book in our hands and it was their wish...

 

This also goes hand in hand with the issue of the pacing of books. I reflect kindly on the fact that Robert Jordan has taught us to let the pattern weave as it wills and this is how I approached each book. He did his job well by pacing the book to make some of us uncomfortable.  

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And, frankly, I think the extra money gathered would be minute - some people will want both anyway, and many will just wait. I really doubt that double buyers who wouldn't have double bought anyway regardless of when it was released will be that numerous.

I agree that it seems unlikely that was Harriet's true motive, but for completely different reasons. It's very clear to me, as a Kindle user and one who owns hardcovers of earlier books in the series, that I wouldn't have bought the book in any other form than electronic if I've been given that chance. Collections are nice, but I'm just not that sentimental. And I think if you'll really inquire, you'll discover that the vast majority of readers aren't (just as the vast majority isn't represented at all on forums like this one). Now, skipping on getting the book when it comes out, well, that's a different matter altogether. As is clearly evidenced by the sheer numbers of posts online by people who weren't involved enough to know that the ebook isn't published along with the HC, but still knew to look for it last week.

 

Which brings us to your next point:

Harriet isn't forcing you to buy the book at all, in any format.

I wholeheartedly agree. The main method of communication open to dissatisfied consumers is withholding their business. I don't blame anyone who opts for that road, and I completely understand the desire to share that decision online.

 

As for piracy, I don't condone it, but neither do I condone ignoring the speed limit on the roads, and yet many of us are guilty of that. It's a proven fact that the prominent factor in harmful piracy (that is, people who engage in it when a legal alternative is open to them, and will not later purchase the book if they find in enjoyable and when it becomes available) is a feeling of unfairness and lack of good will towards publisher/author. In this case it should come as no surprise that we're seeing somewhat of a backlash, and what would personally surprise me is if ebook sales will make up for it, come April.

 

Me, I'll get it; but I hardly expect everyone to do so themselves (and I very much resent the need to purchase it twice, which will definitely affect my decision when the encyclopedia is released).

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Well, I wanted to say something that wasn't very nice, but instead I think I'll go away now, before you taunt me a second time.

 

Aha! I fart in your general direction...

 

Anyway, I prefer books themselves (though that may change when I own more of them). It's not that I don't see how an ebook is much more useful and efficient, it's that I just dislike reading on a screen. Besides, say, forums and news and that kind of thing. It just feels wrong reading a book of any kind on an electronic device. It's purely a personal preference though, because I can see how having a Kindle or whatnot could be really handy. *shrugs*

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Anyway, I prefer books themselves (though that may change when I own more of them). It's not that I don't see how an ebook is much more useful and efficient, it's that I just dislike reading on a screen. 

 

Have you actually tried reading on a proper "e-ink" device? If you haven't, I think you'd be surprised. It doesn't look or act anything like a computer screen.

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Nah, I haven't actually. It's been mainly things such as Uni books and documents that I've read on my laptop and phone. It just feels weird, but I can imagine the "e-ink" devices would be better, but I'm still unsure. Unfortunately no-one in the family has one so I can't borrow one to see. 

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I do understand the frustration you all have; I share it, I got a Kindle for Christmas, and was overjoyed, but also sad, because I knew I couldn't get AMOL on it at once. I bought the hardcover, because I wanted it now, and I'll also buy the ebook, and the paperback when that comes out (I'm a book collector when it comes to books I love, and all my other WoT-books are in paperback, can't mess with the system).

 

Is it disrespecfult? Yes. Is it unessecary? Yes. But even so...

 

The way some people express themselves here... You're reacting to disrespect with even more disrespect, instead of taking the higher road. Some come of as outright childish sulking. Nothing can change now; but if everyone who was frustrated and angry about this would send a letter to Tor and Harriet (in a respectful tone), instead of bitching and sulking on the internet, this could be prevented with future books. Like the encyclopedia that's coming out. It's totally OK to be frustrated, or angry, but getting pirated copies and whining on the internet isn't gonna change anything! Imagine if everyone on DM, and that's leaving negative feedback on the hardcover on Amazong etc, would have sent a letter to Tor. They would get thousands of letters. Then they would actually GET the message. Do you really think Tor representatives sit on Amazon or DM and read this? I don't think so.

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I do understand the frustration you all have; I share it, I got a Kindle for Christmas, and was overjoyed, but also sad, because I knew I couldn't get AMOL on it at once. I bought the hardcover, because I wanted it now, and I'll also buy the ebook, and the paperback when that comes out (I'm a book collector when it comes to books I love, and all my other WoT-books are in paperback, can't mess with the system).

 

Is it disrespecfult? Yes. Is it unessecary? Yes. But even so...

 

The way some people express themselves here... You're reacting to disrespect with even more disrespect, instead of taking the higher road. Some come of as outright childish sulking. Nothing can change now; but if everyone who was frustrated and angry about this would send a letter to Tor and Harriet (in a respectful tone), instead of bitching and sulking on the internet, this could be prevented with future books. Like the encyclopedia that's coming out. It's totally OK to be frustrated, or angry, but getting pirated copies and whining on the internet isn't gonna change anything! Imagine if everyone on DM, and that's leaving negative feedback on the hardcover on Amazong etc, would have sent a letter to Tor. They would get thousands of letters. Then they would actually GET the message. Do you really think Tor representatives sit on Amazon or DM and read this? I don't think so.

I hope I did not offend with what I said as well as I meant no disrespect . I have always personally choose a book over a e-book even though I am fluent with technology. If you can understand, I am very old world when it comes to books and I suppose it has to do with my old world Italian heritage!(and boy do I love the Nordic runes too!) :D 

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I do understand the frustration you all have; I share it, I got a Kindle for Christmas, and was overjoyed, but also sad, because I knew I couldn't get AMOL on it at once. I bought the hardcover, because I wanted it now, and I'll also buy the ebook, and the paperback when that comes out (I'm a book collector when it comes to books I love, and all my other WoT-books are in paperback, can't mess with the system).

 

Is it disrespecfult? Yes. Is it unessecary? Yes. But even so...

 

The way some people express themselves here... You're reacting to disrespect with even more disrespect, instead of taking the higher road. Some come of as outright childish sulking. Nothing can change now; but if everyone who was frustrated and angry about this would send a letter to Tor and Harriet (in a respectful tone), instead of bitching and sulking on the internet, this could be prevented with future books. Like the encyclopedia that's coming out. It's totally OK to be frustrated, or angry, but getting pirated copies and whining on the internet isn't gonna change anything! Imagine if everyone on DM, and that's leaving negative feedback on the hardcover on Amazong etc, would have sent a letter to Tor. They would get thousands of letters. Then they would actually GET the message. Do you really think Tor representatives sit on Amazon or DM and read this? I don't think so.

 

This is quite a bit arrogant. If you don't like whiny posts on the Internet, or don't like pirating, say "I don't like it." But claiming that it's ineffective, just because you don't like it, is thinking an awful lot of yourself, expecting the entire universe to rearrange itself so that forms of protest work when and only when you're comfortable with them.

 

Protest always annoys innocent people. If you think you've found a method of protest that's completely non-annoying, you should probably give up right there because it's all but guaranteed to be a waste of time. Suggesting it to others is just a scam; you might as well tell them to shut up and buzz off, because that's all it is.

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You know what's interesting, I have been reading WoT for 15 years and I have spent countless hours lurking this and other forums, but this topic made me register for the first time. I love the Wheel of Time. I have suffered, laughed and bled with the characters along the way. Hear me now.

 

The decision about the e-book is not only short sighted, but insulting.

 

Dear Harriet, I understand and appreciate your reasons, but lets review them in detail (note that quotes are not exact and may be re-phrased due to author being lazy :):

 

1. "the e-book will hurt sales and prevent the book reaching #1 in the NYT list"

 

Wrong. Even a 10th of the fans that have bought it would be enough for that NYT spot. Disregarding that NYT includes e-books in their rankings (albeit sometimes it's messy), most, and I'm talking 90%+ of the people that bought the e-book would buy the hardback as well. Why you ask? Because we already have the other 13 books and would be downright stupid no to finish the collection. On the other hand, people that have not bought the first 13 books will have no incntive to do so now and have a single book in their library (and no, you won't force them to buy the whole series this way). I would have bought both the hardback for my collection and the e-book for ease of reading. Hauling that brick around is not convenient. Which leads me to...

 

2. "e-books are not the proper way to read"

 

I am very sorry, but this borders on extreme prejudice and self-importance. Who are you to decide what's right for everyone else? Please, feel ffree to read the way you want - a hardback, papyrus, goat skin with charcoal, etc. that is none of my business, but the reverse applies as well. You cannot force anyone to abide by your prefered way of reading and you don't have the authority to decide what is the correct way for anyone, but yourself. And lastly...

 

3, "pirates!"

 

Hehe. Considering it took less than 24 hours for a properly formatted epub to pop up on the web (not to mention the scanned pdf before that), I cannot see how this curbs pirating. If anything, it encourages it.

 

People that cannot read it any other way than an e-book:

 

 - foreigners (more on this below)

 - people with disabilities (weak arms/hands/muscles or poor eyes)

 - people that cannot afford the hardback price (self-explanatory)

 - people that go "green" and don't want to kill the trees (I find that laughable, but it's their choice, I accept and respect it)

 

I'll use myself as an example:

 

I was perfectly willing to pay the full hardback price for an e-book on release day, but I was overcome with suprise and subsequently rage at the decision not to publish it. I live outside the US and UK, English is my third language. I cannot afford to ship the book here, because it will cost me a fortune, I cannot wait for a translation, because it will be available in summer, in my country, and I have been reading the books in English anyway.

 

So I have two choices:

 

1. Wait three more months while everyone else reads it and spoils it for me thus killing any satisfaction after patiently waiting for 15 years for the outcome of the story.

 

2. Pirate it.

 

Which one do you think I chose? I promptly downloaded it, read it and called it a day. Is it my fault? I don't think so. You made me do it, your poor marketing strategy and meieval understanding of technology. You forced me to pirate it and lost the money I would have given gladly and happily to you.

 

I apologize to Mr. Sanderson for this, for using his work without proper payment, but I don't feel bad. I even feel justified, because the one tainting the final book and Mr. Jordan's legacy is you Harriet. 

 

I hope Tor sees the light and never lets such absurd decisions rule their publishing policy in the future.

Edited by kevin pls go

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You know what's interesting, I have been reading WoT for 15 years and I have spent countless hours lurking this and other forums, but this topic made me register for the first time. I love the Wheel of Time. I have suffered, laughed and bled with the characters along the way. Hear me now.

 

The decision about the e-book is not only short sighted, but insulting.

 

Dear Harriet, I understand and appreciate your reasons, but lets review them in detail (note that quotes are not exact and may be re-phrased due to author being lazy :):

 

1. "the e-book will hurt sales and prevent the book reaching #1 in the NYT list"

 

Wrong. Even a 10th of the fans that have bought it would be enough for that NYT spot. Disregarding that NYT includes e-books in their rankings (albeit sometimes it's messy), most, and I'm talking 90%+ of the people that bought the e-book would buy the hardback as well. Why you ask? Because we already have the other 13 books and would be downright stupid no to finish the collection. On the other hand, people that have not bought the first 13 books will have no incntive to do so now and have a single book in their library (and no, you won't force them to buy the whole series this way). I would have bought both the hardback for my collection and the e-book for ease of reading. Hauling that brick around is not convenient. Which leads me to...

 

2. "e-books are not the proper way to read"

 

I am very sorry, but this borders on extreme prejudice and self-importance. Who are you to decide what's right for everyone else? Please, feel ffree to read the way you want - a hardback, papyrus, goat skin with charcoal, etc. that is none of my business, but the reverse applies as well. You cannot force anyone to abide by your prefered way of reading and you don't have the authority to decide what is the correct way for anyone, but yourself. And lastly...

 

3, "pirates!"

 

Hehe. Considering it took less than 24 hours for a properly formatted epub to pop up on the web (not to mention the scanned pdf before that), I cannot see how this curbs pirating. If anything, it encourages it.

 

People that cannot read it any other way than an e-book:

 

 - foreigners (more on this below)

 - people with disabilities (weak arms/hands/muscles or poor eyes)

 - people that cannot afford the hardback price (self-explanatory)

 - people that go "green" and don't want to kill the trees (I find that laughable, but it's their choice, I accept and respect it)

 

I'll use myself as an example:

 

I was perfectly willing to pay the full hardback price for an e-book on release day, but I was overcome with suprise and subsequently rage at the decision not to publish it. I live outside the US and UK, English is my third language. I cannot afford to ship the book here, because it will cost me a fortune, I cannot wait for a translation, because it will be available in summer, in my country, and I have been reading the books in English anyway.

 

So I have two choices:

 

1. Wait three more months while everyone else reads it and spoils it for me thus killing any satisfaction after patiently waiting for 15 years for the outcome of the story.

 

2. Pirate it.

 

Which one do you think I chose? I promptly downloaded it, read it and called it a day. Is it my fault? I don't think so. You made me do it, your poor marketing strategy and meieval understanding of technology. You forced me to pirate it and lost the money I would have given gladly and happily to you.

 

I apologize to Mr. Sanderson for this, for using his work without proper payment, but I don't feel bad. I even feel justified, because the one tainting the final book and Mr. Jordan's legacy is you Harriet. 

 

I hope Tor sees the light and never lets such absurd decisions rule their publishing policy in the future.

You have brought many a great points which I have the highest respect for you for doing so. I did have a smile when you said "hauling the brick around". If I may kindly say, I am proud to carry the book around! Again as above, I have that old world view in my heart. And even more interesting is my dad is a book AND e- book reader that has supported my decision. I do not wish anyone to support me because I like a real book in my hands, and that is not trying to criticizes any ones way they look at this situation, but rather openly sharing the feelings.

 

I have to humble my self whole heartily when I do realize that the way of the book may soon give way to the convenience  of the e-book. We could go on about this but my forum is talking in person. Which I have had the honor of meeting a fellow Wheel of Time lover solely because I had the book before me.

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You know what's interesting, I have been reading WoT for 15 years and I have spent countless hours lurking this and other forums, but this topic made me register for the first time. I love the Wheel of Time. I have suffered, laughed and bled with the characters along the way. Hear me now.

 

The decision about the e-book is not only short sighted, but insulting.

 

Dear Harriet, I understand and appreciate your reasons, but lets review them in detail (note that quotes are not exact and may be re-phrased due to author being lazy :):

 

1. "the e-book will hurt sales and prevent the book reaching #1 in the NYT list"

 

Wrong. Even a 10th of the fans that have bought it would be enough for that NYT spot. Disregarding that NYT includes e-books in their rankings (albeit sometimes it's messy), most, and I'm talking 90%+ of the people that bought the e-book would buy the hardback as well. Why you ask? Because we already have the other 13 books and would be downright stupid no to finish the collection. On the other hand, people that have not bought the first 13 books will have no incntive to do so now and have a single book in their library (and no, you won't force them to buy the whole series this way). I would have bought both the hardback for my collection and the e-book for ease of reading. Hauling that brick around is not convenient. Which leads me to...

Do you have actual figures to back up your claims? How do you know how many people will go out and buy both hardback and ebook? Not everyone cares that much about completing a consistent collection - I, for example, have book 1 in paperback with the American cover, books 2-6&8-9 in paperback with British covers, 7 in hardback with the American cover (although it was the only cover back then), and books 10-14 in hardback with the British covers. I think that if all else is equal people would like that sort of consistency, but they won't pay extra for it. And if you are trying to convince Harriet that her policies are wrong, then you had best have the sales figures to back it up. I'm sure a lot of people would think it was downright stupid to buy a second copy you don't need purely for that consistency. Some people will want to double buy, and many of them will do so anyway.

People that cannot read it any other way than an e-book:

 

 - foreigners (more on this below)

 - people with disabilities (weak arms/hands/muscles or poor eyes)

 - people that cannot afford the hardback price (self-explanatory)

If not always true - many new release hardbacks are discounted (for example, I got AMoL at half price, and that's without buying online or shopping around at all), and it has been reported that in some cases it is possible to get cheaper physical copies than e-copies due to those discounts.

I'll use myself as an example:

 

I was perfectly willing to pay the full hardback price for an e-book on release day, but I was overcome with suprise and subsequently rage at the decision not to publish it. I live outside the US and UK, English is my third language. I cannot afford to ship the book here, because it will cost me a fortune, I cannot wait for a translation, because it will be available in summer, in my country, and I have been reading the books in English anyway.

 

So I have two choices:

 

1. Wait three more months while everyone else reads it and spoils it for me thus killing any satisfaction after patiently waiting for 15 years for the outcome of the story.

 

2. Pirate it.

 

Which one do you think I chose? I promptly downloaded it, read it and called it a day. Is it my fault? I don't think so. You made me do it, your poor marketing strategy and meieval understanding of technology. You forced me to pirate it and lost the money I would have given gladly and happily to you.

Frankly, this is not true. You admit you have a choice, and you chose to pirate rather than wait - a lot of people will do the reverse, and will wait rather than pirate. Harriet hasn't forced you to do anything. You have made some fair points, but trying to claim that Harriet is responsible for your acts of piracy isn't one of them. It would be better to simply say that had there been a legal copy available to you, you would have bought it, but you lacked that option and leave it at that. Waiting is a legitimate choice. Some people are waiting still, some will continue to wait. Some people won't read it until the ebook comes out, or the paperback comes out. You won't convince Harriet that she is wrong with those sorts of attitudes (not that it is likely to be a problem in the future) by making unsubstantiated claims, saying things that aren't true, and blaming her for your criminal acts.

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Let's put things in perspective, here. No one is ever forced to break the law, but in the area of copyright infringement online, the phenomenon is widely known. People will ignore these laws, just as people will drive above the speed-limit, or fail to report the 50$ they made watching after the neighbor's children. In this sort of situation, it becomes very relevant to debate the different factors that contribute to people's inclination to either buy or pirate a book, and the points kevin brought up are indeed paramount in this regard. So no, he wasn't forced. But a direct link does exist between Harriet's decision and the number of people who have and will choose to act as he has done. Giving voice to that is another form of protest, just as writing private letters. I, for one, am quite satisfied by the amount of uninvolved individuals who nonetheless were outraged by that decision and posted their grievances on the internet, for all that I personally got the audiobook legally and plan on getting the ebook as well (if, perhaps, not quite on its release date, as yet another form of protest).

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Yes, it reminds me of the situation with Game of Thrones.

 

Sometimes you don't really have another practical choice than to commit copyright infringement.

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I'm just glad that the audio books were released the same day. I'm a single father of 2 kids and also work full time, so my schedule doesn't really allow for pleasure reading. Without the audio version of the series to enjoy on my commute or while house cleaning, etc. I would have never got to experience the series.

 

It has been mentioned that E-book sales can be "messy" when determining best seller rank, and it's been mentioned that they are not determining factors at all. I'm not sure which is true, but it seems that the audio version does not share that trait, since it was released the same day. Is there a difference in how audio sales and electronic sales are calculated?

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Audiobooks are counted as HC and ebooks are counted separately. NYT now put the combined list on top, but they still have the separate lists.

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