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One Last Vote Before Release...


110 members have voted

  1. 1. Is this the LAST Last Battle?

    • Yes, why else tell the story?
    • No, the Wheel just keeps on turning

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I've been waffling throughout my reading of the series as to whether this is the last last battle or not.


My current opinion is: it is the last last battle.  My primary reason for believing this is that I've read a few interviews with RJ talking about the Wheel and how he thought the Greeks had such a great breakthrough in viewing time as more linear than cyclical.  After reading a few of those quotes, it seemed to me that he thought it was such an imortant moment in history that he may be trying to parallel it in the series.  This is of course, conjecture.  In a short time I'll have my answer!

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I really love this poll and I think the topic is truly the epitome of the series.  While the theme of the series has consistently been: "the wheel turns and turns, etc. etc.," I believe that Fain is the wild card that will disrupt the pattern and banish the dark one from the pattern.  


However, having said that, I think the best possible ending--in my eyes--would be one that follows the proceeding storyline: 
Rand pwns the Dark one and/or Fain, and somehow the reader is lead to believe that all is well and that Rand has succeeded  only to read a final paragraph that entail something alone the lines of: "the squash went rotten all of a sudden... uh ohhhh..."

I'd totally love that! :-P

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Quotes such as...?


You'll have to bear with me as it took me about 10 years to actually get an account verified that allowed me to post here in the first place, but this is what I'm talking about (I apologize if links don't work properly):


Interview: Sep 4th, 2005 Question
In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?
Robert Jordan
If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time, if time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop...ah...it is really quite immense.
So, the sun will never go nova, will never die?
Robert Jordan In this universe, no.


#10 in this list http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php

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I think it's important to ask what this would imply if it was the final itiration(sp?) of the Dark One's attempt to remake the pattern in his image (by most likely destroying it):


- The Dark One wins, existence ends and anti-existence/the void begins. That's the only way I can make sense of what the Dark One wants since he is the polar opposite of the Creator and given the Creator's impulse/drive to create, thus the Dark One would want to uncreate. But, given that this is still a fantasy epic albeit an unique one, we can safely say that this isn't going to happen.


- The Dark One's drive to uncreate is checked permanently. The only way I can see this happening is through the Dark One's death or through the Dark One's marginalisation. Now, I don't think that the Dark One can be killed because if he is indeed the Creator's equal and opposite, then his true nature is beyond any component-member of the Pattern to touch/affect because he is outside the Pattern in the same manner that the Creator is even if both of them can affect it at will. The Dark One can be marginalised by completely sealing him off from the Pattern, which might involve a permanent prison for the DO and perhaps the sacrifice of the Creator to continuously maintain it. Or, more likely of the two, the Dark One and the Creator are somehow unified into a single entity whereby one's desire to create checks the other's desire to uncreate. This could allow the cosmos to decay and could allow the sun to go nova, to use the example from the previous post, while at the same time removing the threat of a permanent and final end. However, the Creator's presence in the entire series is a handful of sentences at the very first book, and the act of 'joining' the two would require at the very least assent and assistance from the Creator. It might serve as a bit of deus ex machina.


                 - Tangent 1: What if the Dark One was seeking to undo the Pattern because he was trapped within it, what if he was powering it in some form? And what if one of his reasons for undoing it is that he wants to have the same power of creation as the Creator? However, if they are in fact Manichean entities, then he wouldn't want to create.


                 - Tangent 2: Wouldn't it make sense to reserve arguably the most powerful force in the entire series(the Creator) to the very beginning and the very end of the series?


I can't think of anything else, but that's essentially what would need to happen for this to be the last battle. Can anyone else think of other precursors?

Edited by Deroi
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I'm  sure the Wheel will keep turning. I'm also pretty sure that the DO will survive. I even wrote a long post about it.

I was quite confident in that prediction too but I relied on several quotes by BS.  Then I saw this  comment by Terez (she's read the book) that some comments by BS relevant to major developments were highly misleading.

That does make me question pretty much everything but I'm sticking with my prediction.

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It will keep turning.  Otherwise, Rand's revelation at the end of tGS would be pointless.  He'll never have another chance to make things right with Ilyena again if he breaks the Wheel.

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I've been waffling throughout my reading


Sorry about that. It was unintentional, i swear.



I hope time gets linear and the OP gets nerfed to a level where Travelling is no longer possible. But i don't think that is going to happen. Because quotes and stuff..So i didn't vote.

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I'm  sure the Wheel will keep turning. I'm also pretty sure that the DO will survive.


In my mind, the first thing (Wheel continues turning) can't happen without the second thing (DO alive).  So I don't really have an opinion on whether the DO will surive.  I think time going linear requires either DO death or permanent seal, so, for me, DO death is not necessarily required for an ultimate Lightsider victory.


RJ has just been too good at aes sedai answers on this particular question.

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It will keep turning.  Otherwise, Rand's revelation at the end of tGS would be pointless.  He'll never have another chance to make things right with Ilyena again if he breaks the Wheel.

Or he can allow a break into linear time because he knows hope and love will always be amongst men :/

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Ok...  so I wanted to give a few more references to the Greek idea...  best way for anyone interested is to go here:  http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php and type in "greeks" as the keyword -- make sure it's plural.


All of these quotes are coming from that database, but I'll include the original ref's as well after them.




Interview: Dec 12th, 2000 CNN Chat (Verbatim)



How did you develop the idea for the Wheel of Time saga, and where did you get the name?

Robert Jordan



The name comes out of Hindu mythology, where there is a belief that time is a wheel. Many older cultures believe that time is cyclic, that it repeats. In fact, I believe the best thing the ancient Greeks gave us was (the idea) that time was linear and change was possible.




Interview: Apr, 2003 Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)
The great gift to the world of the ancient Greeks is that they were the FIRST culture to conceive of time as being linear, which allows for change. I can change things, I can change the future, and it will not return to what it is now, because time passes on; it does not double back. So I have a Wheel of Time world, where there is a belief in reincarnation and a belief that things will return to, not exactly the way they are now, but essentially as if there were two tapestries and you look at them from across the room, and they look identical, and it’s only when you get close that you can see the differences.


Interview: 1997 Audio Renaissance Interview (Verbatim)
...most eastern cultures believed that time was circular. The Greeks gave us the great gift of believing that time was linear. And that's a great gift because if time is circular, if everything repeats in cycles, then change is impossible. No matter what you do, it's always going to come back to what is here. But if time is linear, then change is possible. But I wanted the circularity because I wanted, again, to go into the changes by distance. So, the myths and legends and a few of the stories that these people tell, well, some of them are based on our own current events, on the present. What they are doing is based on our myths and legends. So they are the source of our myths and legends, and we are the source of theirs.


You're all obviously welcome to make of those what you will.  When I read them, I hear some reverence for the Greeks and their idea that change is possible.  And while the prevailing belief in Randland is that time is circular, our main character has been trying to challenge "fate" since he first learned he could channel.  And there's nothing wrong with naming the entire series after the thing your main character destroys, either!  :)
(edits are trying to make the multiple quotes work... sheesh!)
Edited by Let the Lord of Chaos Rule
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I voted no but I really wish it would be. I do not like the idea of cyclical time and I don't think it really makes that big of a difference in the WoT other than to depress us. 

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There is a direct quote from Moridin in TOM to Graendal where he articulates the prophecy about how time will not be cyclical anymore. 

In all fairness, Moridin didn't think time would be cyclical because he thought time wouldn't exist anymore.

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