Prophecy; New and Fulfilled. (Full Spoilers)

[Barid Bel Medar - Member]

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

 

Yeah, it was poorly handled. RJ has said that the DO isn't the source of all evil in the universe. 

 

I think of it in a different way. That Rand understood the DO shouldn't be destroyed because he realised that it would upset the balance of the Wheel - not because it would force everyone to be Light 13x13d - rather that the Wheel was designed with the DO's presence as an intentional testing throughout the Ages. 

 

I believe that the Pattern was designed so that if the DO won, it was for the best anyway, because humanity would have lost their will to stand up. Harsh, but understandable. 

[JakeBarnes - Member]

 

 

 

 

Additionally does anyone know of direct quotes from RJ regarding Min? I'm wondering if she could have mis-interpreted her viewing of Sarene; instead of getting swept off her feet by a love affair, maybe she foresaw the Compulsion. I know that Min thinks that when she knows she knows, but is she right?

 

The words come with the viewing; that's in the books. I don't see any reason to believe it had anything to do with Compulsion.

To be fair, she did love Graendal.

 

Edit: Why/when did the quote function stop displaying the quoted poster's name?

 

Edit 2: Also, Greandal's Compulsion was likely tempestuous given the way things were described in the book. HA!

Edited January 14, 2013 by JakeBarnes

[wintermute - Member]

 

 

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

 

Yeah, it was poorly handled. RJ has said that the DO isn't the source of all evil in the universe. 

 

I think of it in a different way. That Rand understood the DO shouldn't be destroyed because he realised that it would upset the balance of the Wheel - not because it would force everyone to be Light 13x13d - rather that the Wheel was designed with the DO's presence as an intentional testing throughout the Ages. 

 

I believe that the Pattern was designed so that if the DO won, it was for the best anyway, because humanity would have lost their will to stand up. Harsh, but understandable. 

Yup, the DO isn't the only source of evil - with Shadar Logoth of course, being the canonical example.

 

I like the balance interpretation more, too. Or put it this way, if the Rand did kill the DO, then how could the 2nd (AoL) and 3rd Ages come around again? There would be no DO to fight! Rand would have inadvertently broken the Wheel of Time, and wouldn't that have led to oblivion?

[Agitel - Member]

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

 

It's not that he influences people to be evil, it's that he is that part of them. He doesn't influence people to be evil, he is evil manifested. To kill him isn't to destroy just a being, but an entire force or spectrum of personalities and feelings which exist in everyone and shapes who they are. It is to destroy evil itself and everything it resides in. But that's not good because people aren't black or white. The way these things interact, having such things inside doesn't necessarily make you evil.

 

Or perhaps it's more complicated than that.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Agitel

[Agitel - Member]

 

 

 

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

 

Yeah, it was poorly handled. RJ has said that the DO isn't the source of all evil in the universe. 

 

I think of it in a different way. That Rand understood the DO shouldn't be destroyed because he realised that it would upset the balance of the Wheel - not because it would force everyone to be Light 13x13d - rather that the Wheel was designed with the DO's presence as an intentional testing throughout the Ages. 

 

I believe that the Pattern was designed so that if the DO won, it was for the best anyway, because humanity would have lost their will to stand up. Harsh, but understandable. 

Yup, the DO isn't the only source of evil - with Shadar Logoth of course, being the canonical example.

 

I like the balance interpretation more, too. Or put it this way, if the Rand did kill the DO, then how could the 2nd (AoL) and 3rd Ages come around again? There would be no DO to fight! Rand would have inadvertently broken the Wheel of Time, and wouldn't that have led to oblivion?

 

I noted Shadar Logoth as well, which seems to contradict Rand's conclusion. I don't feel that we can just write off Rand's conclusion, however. It was made too clear. I think the better explanation is that Mashadar is alien to this world. For whatever reason, Shai'tan is the manifestation of the evil that is naturally woven into all men and women. Mashadar is some alien force or being. It's also clearly quite evil, but it's alien to Shai'tan as well, and also considers him the enemy. I think the only conclusion is that whatever makes up Mashadar is a separate thing. Shai'tan wishes to remake the world with people who have no concept of good. Rand thought of doing the opposite. Mashadar seems to just want to take everything into itself. Shai'tan isn't an enemy. According to Rand, he never was.

 

I think Mashadar could be labeled an enemy. A force unintended by the Creator.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Agitel

[mbuehner - Member]

 

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

 

It's not that he influences people to be evil, it's that he is that part of them. He doesn't influence people to be evil, he is evil manifested. To kill him isn't to destroy just a being, but an entire force or spectrum of personalities and feelings which exist in everyone and shapes who they are. It is to destroy evil itself and everything it resides in. But that's not good because people aren't black or white. The way these things interact, having such things inside doesn't necessarily make you evil.

 

Or perhaps it's more complicated than that.

I kinda like this- in a sense the DO is a product of humanity as much as a primal force of nature. Perhaps thats why he's described as foreign to the pattern, the pattern was created perfect, but free will requires the possibility of imperfection, but still something eternally perfect can't be corrupted, but is might be 'coated' with this foreign property called evil that has invaded. 

 

Also implied, given the eternal and cyclical nature of the universe, that there was never actually a 'beginning' where the world was perfect... as there can't be an end either. So long as there are humans, the Dark One exists, and so long as the Dark One exists, the pattern will throw up a Dragon to keep him at bay and to cast him into his prison. That makes sense given how LTT notes that the 'perfect' Age of Legends was headed for war  before they even drilled the bore. You can't lock the DO out completely because human beings are constantly refreshing him in this world... until he can manage to get a hole drilled into his prison and appear in person, be cast back out and the dragon eventually remake the prison. Humans forget he exists, rinse, repeat. Forever.

[Kudlak - Member]

DO can't be destroyed without evil there isn't any good + if Wheel is destroyed how are people going back to life ???

[Hondo - Member]

 

 

 

one of the major points of the past 2 books has been that nothing is inevitable, not even prophesy. You even see it in Min's visions as she starts to see possibilities rather than certainties.

 

RJ said her viewings are absolute. When she sees options, then one of the options will happen. The only prophecies that aren't certain are Dreams, and those that were given after the Pattern began falling apart (around COT or KOD), but we only know of a couple that didn't come true. Like a Seanchan woman handing Egwene an a'dam, which I suspect was only left unfulfilled because ewot missed it on their list of prophecies.

So what's your take on "Three on a Boat". I'm not sure that was fulfilled.

Maybe not. But....

 

"South. East or west would do, but he figured he wanted to go someplace away from it all for good. South first, then maybe out west, along the coast. Maybe he could find a ship"

 

Do you think he might find a ship?

[Kudlak - Member]

 

 

 

 

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

 

Yeah, it was poorly handled. RJ has said that the DO isn't the source of all evil in the universe. 

 

I think of it in a different way. That Rand understood the DO shouldn't be destroyed because he realised that it would upset the balance of the Wheel - not because it would force everyone to be Light 13x13d - rather that the Wheel was designed with the DO's presence as an intentional testing throughout the Ages. 

 

I believe that the Pattern was designed so that if the DO won, it was for the best anyway, because humanity would have lost their will to stand up. Harsh, but understandable. 

Yup, the DO isn't the only source of evil - with Shadar Logoth of course, being the canonical example.

 

I like the balance interpretation more, too. Or put it this way, if the Rand did kill the DO, then how could the 2nd (AoL) and 3rd Ages come around again? There would be no DO to fight! Rand would have inadvertently broken the Wheel of Time, and wouldn't that have led to oblivion?

 

I noted Shadar Logoth as well, which seems to contradict Rand's conclusion. I don't feel that we can just write off Rand's conclusion, however. It was made too clear. I think the better explanation is that Mashadar is alien to this world. For whatever reason, Shai'tan is the manifestation of the evil that is naturally woven into all men and women. Mashadar is some alien force or being. It's also clearly quite evil, but it's alien to Shai'tan as well, and also considers him the enemy. I think the only conclusion is that whatever makes up Mashadar is a separate thing. Shai'tan wishes to remake the world with people who have no concept of good. Rand thought of doing the opposite. Mashadar seems to just want to take everything into itself. Shai'tan isn't an enemy. According to Rand, he never was.

 

I think Mashadar could be labeled an enemy. A force unintended by the Creator.

 

 

 

 

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

 

It's not that he influences people to be evil, it's that he is that part of them. He doesn't influence people to be evil, he is evil manifested. To kill him isn't to destroy just a being, but an entire force or spectrum of personalities and feelings which exist in everyone and shapes who they are. It is to destroy evil itself and everything it resides in. But that's not good because people aren't black or white. The way these things interact, having such things inside doesn't necessarily make you evil.

 

Or perhaps it's more complicated than that.

I kinda like this- in a sense the DO is a product of humanity as much as a primal force of nature. Perhaps thats why he's described as foreign to the pattern, the pattern was created perfect, but free will requires the possibility of imperfection, but still something eternally perfect can't be corrupted, but is might be 'coated' with this foreign property called evil that has invaded. 

 

Also implied, given the eternal and cyclical nature of the universe, that there was never actually a 'beginning' where the world was perfect... as there can't be an end either. So long as there are humans, the Dark One exists, and so long as the Dark One exists, the pattern will throw up a Dragon to keep him at bay and to cast him into his prison. That makes sense given how LTT notes that the 'perfect' Age of Legends was headed for war  before they even drilled the bore. You can't lock the DO out completely because human beings are constantly refreshing him in this world... until he can manage to get a hole drilled into his prison and appear in person, be cast back out and the dragon eventually remake the prison. Humans forget he exists, rinse, repeat. Forever.

I like these explanation + dont forget that WoT is about choice  people can do. And this is problem with Mashadar. In his cause people dont get chance to choice but with DO you can make choice - are you going to serving him or are you going to resist him ??

[SinisterDeath - Moderator]

 

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

I'm assuming that he's symbolic of the "bad" that exists in people as well. Like when discussing the 13x13 process, one of the Ashaman mentions that it essentially "flips" the good and the bad inside of you, turning you into a mirror image of yourself. The Dark One needs to exist (even if locked up where he can't rule), otherwise there would be no "darkness" inside of people, and everyone would be good by default. At least that's how I interpreted it. 

 

And very true regarding your last point. At least the WoT series has the excuse of being a work of fiction, whereas religions claim to be "truth". 

He also represents chaos. Death. Destruction. Creator represents Order, Life, and Creation.

 

Ever hear the tale of the sun and jack frost?

 

 

So what's your take on "Three on a Boat". I'm not sure that was fulfilled.

This is obvious to me.

The boat is the nations of the land.

Min with the Seanchan (helping toun lead)

Elayne with Andor

Aviendah as a leader of the Aiel.

They are all on a boat that is there nations.

 

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade"

 So yea as I said. Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2013 by SinisterDeath

[BFG - Member]

 

 

 

Additionally does anyone know of direct quotes from RJ regarding Min? I'm wondering if she could have mis-interpreted her viewing of Sarene; instead of getting swept off her feet by a love affair, maybe she foresaw the Compulsion. I know that Min thinks that when she knows she knows, but is she right?

The words come with the viewing; that's in the books. I don't see any reason to believe it had anything to do with Compulsion.

I do like the warder option (mentioned elsewhere by you(?) and Barid(?), it's more the thoughts and words used when Graendal compulses someone - the total adoration, and subjection of the compulsed. All I remember Min saying is something like 'knowing she'd get swept off her feet by a love affair sometime in the future didn't help', based on memory the Compulsion fits this, depending on whether or not Min always identifies stuff exactly or not.

 

I do agree that their is enough info given about her warder for this to be a real possibility as well.

[Terez - Member]

The words were 'tempestuous love affair', which doesn't fit Compulsion at all.

[mbuehner - Member]

The words were 'tempestuous love affair', which doesn't fit Compulsion at all.

 

Well, Min also saw Alivia helping Rand die... and that turned out to be laying his new clothes out for him. I can buy Min misreading the image. Or chalk it up to some secret off screen love affair with a serving boy. Its probably a forgotten viewing that was botched but I think you can stretch to make it viable without too much trouble.

[Terez - Member]

As we already said, there is a logical explanation; there were hints she had an affair with her Warder. So it's not the viewing that is the problem; it's the idea that being a Compelled love slave somehow fits. The words come with the viewing, so misinterpretation probably wasn't in it. Some have argued that, because she saw that viewing around Alivia, rather than around Rand, that her proclamation that Alivia would help him die wasn't as ironclad as it would have been if she had seen Rand's death in a viewing of Rand, but that viewing in particular sparked an argument over the words that came with the viewing. Min said Alivia was going to kill him, and Rand reminded her that the words that came with the viewing were that Alivia was going to help him die, which was different.

[myifanw - Member]

 

 

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

I'm assuming that he's symbolic of the "bad" that exists in people as well. Like when discussing the 13x13 process, one of the Ashaman mentions that it essentially "flips" the good and the bad inside of you, turning you into a mirror image of yourself. The Dark One needs to exist (even if locked up where he can't rule), otherwise there would be no "darkness" inside of people, and everyone would be good by default. At least that's how I interpreted it. 

 

And very true regarding your last point. At least the WoT series has the excuse of being a work of fiction, whereas religions claim to be "truth". 

He also represents chaos. Death. Destruction. Creator represents Order, Life, and Creation.

 

Ever hear the tale of the sun and jack frost?

 

 

So what's your take on "Three on a Boat". I'm not sure that was fulfilled.

This is obvious to me.

The boat is the nations of the land.

Min with the Seanchan (helping toun lead)

Elayne with Andor

Aviendah as a leader of the Aiel.

They are all on a boat that is there nations.

 

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade"

 So yea as I said. Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

I think you're reading too much into this. The three, Elayne, Avienda, and Min, get on a boat and hunt down Rand. The rest is about the whole Aiel becoming Guardians.

[SinisterDeath - Moderator]

I think you're reading too much into this. The three, Elayne, Avienda, and Min, get on a boat and hunt down Rand. The rest is about the whole Aiel becoming Guardians.

The boat doesn't have to be literal.

[JakeBarnes - Member]

They are all in the same boat, like the saying. 'We're all in the same boat'.

[Mr. Micawber - Member]

Uh, no.

 

Aes Sedai = servants of all

 

Asha'man = guardians

 

We've known these words since book 6

Edited January 15, 2013 by Mr. Micawber

[papertiger - Member]

The boat was figurative (their faces were shadowed because they weren't actually at Shayol Ghul, merely present through the bond).

 

And Rand is definitely going to Min first. She's the only immortal wife he has!

[SinisterDeath - Moderator]

Uh, no.

 

Aes Sedai = servants of all

 

Asha'man = guardians

 

We've known these words since book 6

Who disputed that?

[LeeM.Erickson - Member]

Who disputed that?

 

Myifan implied the Guardians were the Aiel.

[papertiger - Member]

Okay, so for anyone who has LOVED and SUFFERED through the course of the Wheel of Time (I started reading in '96), you MUST read this!!

 

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-perils-and-pleasures-of-longrunning-fantasy-se,60769/

 

A lot of the discussions on these boards have this at their source, a consequence of the inherent dangers of a long-running series.

[BFG - Member]

Terez - Thanks for the clarification on the viewings (both in general and that one in particular).

[jwillis7 - Member]

 

I think you're reading too much into this. The three, Elayne, Avienda, and Min, get on a boat and hunt down Rand. The rest is about the whole Aiel becoming Guardians.

The boat doesn't have to be literal.

that is so cheap to me. This is a direct Arthurian reference. If it is not going to be literal then it needs to be explained. I just think the story was changed to where this is not in it any more.

 

you cant just answer it doesn't have to be literal without saying how it is figurative.

[SinisterDeath - Moderator]

 

 

I think you're reading too much into this. The three, Elayne, Avienda, and Min, get on a boat and hunt down Rand. The rest is about the whole Aiel becoming Guardians.

The boat doesn't have to be literal.

that is so cheap to me. This is a direct Arthurian reference. If it is not going to be literal then it needs to be explained. I just think the story was changed to where this is not in it any more.

 

you cant just answer it doesn't have to be literal without saying how it is figurative.

I did say how it was figurative.

GO back and read my post prior to that.