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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

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First, you can hardly compare Egwene's statement as a Novice with Siuan's statement. The amount they know at that time is very different. As for the "strong Aes Sedai" comment, I think that indicates that weaker Aes Sedai just can't use it. They'll be burned away, just as women weaker than Siuan will be burned away by using the Choedan Kal.

 

Egwene was reporting what Anaiya had said during a lecture, and I see no reason to doubt that Anaiya knew roughly how strong Vora's wand was. She was later part of the circle that Healed Mat and has probably seen it before. The BWB also claims Callandor was strong enough to level a city; there are many other similar statements from the Forsaken and Rand about its strength.

I'm sorry, but nothing in that sentence indicates that Egwene's assessment of the wand's ability is from Anaiya's lecture. And considering that in this book, Egwene is able to come up with earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands of trollocs, she can use the same weave to flatten Tar Valon. And she won't even need Callandor to do it.

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>The Choedan Kal seem to be the only sa'angreal that only very strong channelers can use. Siuan herself used Vora's wand in TGS to open a gateway. If someone as weak as Siuan can use it, anyone can.

I know. Part of me believes that it could just be because Sanderson took over. But the "strong Aes Sedai" thing is also suspect, coming from a Novice, and could be an early-bookism to boot.

 

In case we're doubting the strength of Vora's wand:

 

 

She drew every scrap of the Power she could hold, throwing it at the Foresaken with the fury of the Amyrlin.

The two streams of power sprayed light against one another, the ground around M'Hael cracking as the ground near Egwene rebuilt itself. She still did not know what it was she wove. The opposite of balefire. A fire of her own, a weave of light and rebuilding.

The Flame of Tar Valon.

They matched on another, in stasis, for an eternal moment....

She reached more deeply into saidar, that glowing comfort that had guided her so long.

And she drew on more of the Power.

Her stream of energy pushed its way through M'Hael's balefire like a sword thrust, spraying the Power aside and traveling right up the stream into M'Hael's outstretched hand...

She clung to the Power she'd held. She had pulled in too much

 

 

 

Before Egwene overdrew, she was holding as much as she could safely, though Vora's wand. And she was evenly matched with Taim and his sa'angreal. How powerful was Sakarnen?

 

 

Demandred turned away, and M'Hael pulled the One Power through Sakarnen, drinking gluttonously of its bounty. The sweetness of saidin saturated him, a raging toreent of succulent Power. He was immense while holding this! He could do anything. Level mountains, destroy armies, all on his own!

 

 

 

Let's say some of this is hyperbole. Its still an immensely powerful sa'angreal, and Demandred's actions with it prove this. So Vora's wand is as strong as this one.

Edited by fionwe1987

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I'm sorry, but nothing in that sentence indicates that Egwene's assessment of the wand's ability is from Anaiya's lecture.

 

Where else would Egwene get that idea from? She specifically mentions Anaiya's lecture, and the quote is from before they've Healed Mat; they're just brought out the wand to do it. She has never seen it used at that point and has no means by which to judge its strength except what Anaiya has told her.

 

Egwene had never seen the wand before, but she recognized it from a lecture Anaiya had given the novices. One of the few sa’angreal, and perhaps the most powerful, that the Tower possessed. Sa’angreal had no power of their own, of course—they were merely devices for focusing and magnifying what an Aes Sedai could channel—but with that wand, a strong Aes Sedai might be able to crumple the walls of Tar Valon.

 

If Vora's wand is powerful enough to approach Callandor, why does Siuan even need a circle of middling AS like Verin to help her Heal Mat when their strength would be a drop in the ocean? Why doesn't the Black Ajah, Lanfear, or Mesaana express any interest in it? I suspect Brandon made Vora's sa'angreal a lot stronger than it should be in AMoL. Which is not a big deal, but it strains the credibility of the scene a bit. On the other hand, as other people have mentioned, a channeler like Taim who is close to Rand's strength could possibly "level mountains, destroy armies" with only a small strength boost. Rand, Logain & co killed a hundred thousand Trollocs at Algarin's mansion without the use of sa'angreal.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think the mechanics of channeling/angreal is really Brandon's forte. He tends to focus too much on "what would be cool for character X to do" instead of what's actually possible. I agree there's no way Taim or anyone else can hold back a shield by sheer force of will.

 

Egwene slammed the shield between [Taim] and the Source. It didn't quite cut him off, for he held it back by force of will. [...] He fought back, but was weaker than she.

Edited by sleepinghour

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I already reported to Maria that in Chapter 31 of TOM Mat intended to give one of Elayne's ter'angreal to Olver, and the other to Tuon.Yet this isn't mentioned in AMOL  even when Tuon stole Mat's ter'angreal.

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I'm sorry, but nothing in that sentence indicates that Egwene's assessment of the wand's ability is from Anaiya's lecture.

 

Where else would Egwene get that idea from?

Guess?

 

She specifically mentions Anaiya's lecture, and the quote is from before they've Healed Mat; they're just brought out the wand to do it. She has never seen it used at that point and has no means by which to judge its strength except what Anaiya has told her.

Exactly. Which is why its a doubtful statement.

 

 

Egwene had never seen the wand before, but she recognized it from a lecture Anaiya had given the novices. One of the few sa’angreal, and perhaps the most powerful, that the Tower possessed. Sa’angreal had no power of their own, of course—they were merely devices for focusing and magnifying what an Aes Sedai could channel—but with that wand, a strong Aes Sedai might be able to crumple the walls of Tar Valon.

 

If Vora's wand is powerful enough to approach Callandor, why does Siuan even need a circle of middling AS like Verin to help her Heal Mat when their strength would be a drop in the ocean?

Circles add precision, not just strength.

Why doesn't the Black Ajah, Lanfear, or Mesaana express any interest in it?

They do. As Mesaana says in LoC, the White Tower's storerooms were warded inside and out, and had guards inside and out, and everything was being counted twice a day. They had no way of safely retrieving anything out of there.

I suspect Brandon made Vora's sa'angreal a lot stronger than it should be in AMoL. Which is not a big deal, but it strains the credibility of the scene a bit.

It makes it more credible to me that Egwene could reseal a new hole in the Pattern overdrawing from a powerful sa'angreal, rather than a middling one.

On the other hand, as other people have mentioned, a channeler like Taim who is close to Rand's strength could possibly "level mountains, destroy armies" with only a small strength boost. Rand, Logain & co killed a hundred thousand Trollocs at Algarin's mansion without the use of sa'angreal.

See Taim's quote again. And Egwene should be able to level mountains too, with her strength in Earth. I think what these people are referring to is doing so in one stroke.

Unfortunately, I don't think the mechanics of channeling/angreal is really Brandon's forte. He tends to focus too much on "what would be cool for character X to do" instead of what's actually possible. I agree there's no way Taim or anyone else can hold back a shield by sheer force of will.

This is true enough. But I have no difficulty believing that the Tower's strongest sa'angreal approaches Callandor in strength. Its not like male sa'angreal are inherently stronger or anything. For another, in retrospect this sa'angreal is Callandor's female equivalent. No reason for them to not be in the same weight class.

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Egwene is 70 to 80 percent of Rand strength? hahahahaha.Hahahahahaha. Believe what you want but precious Egwene is nowhere near the big hitters and Rand is the biggest hitter of them all.

 

There is a scene where Ny says that nothing she could do could prevent Alivia from overwhelming her because Alivia was just that strong.Alivia is weaker than Lanfear who was the strongest a woman could be and Lanfear was several levels weaker than Rand.And Ny is the bonfire to Egwene's candle according to Moraine.All this logically puts Egwene way down the pecking order.

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Do we have any evidence in any of the text where vora's wand is stated to be the equal of callandor for female channelers?

No. It is mentioned that it's perhaps the most powerful sa'angreal in WT possession.

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Thats what i figured too. For the longest time the books only mention the Choedan Kal and one other Sa'angreal that was not specified by lanfear as being stronger then callandor. Also Callandor has been souped up to be so awesome in power and key to winning the last battle. Not quite sure why peeps want to equate vora's wand to it other then to insinuate that Egwene was close to Rand in the OP

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Egwene is 70 to 80 percent of Rand strength? hahahahaha.Hahahahahaha. Believe what you want but precious Egwene is nowhere near the big hitters and Rand is the biggest hitter of them all.

 

There is a scene where Ny says that nothing she could do could prevent Alivia from overwhelming her because Alivia was just that strong.Alivia is weaker than Lanfear who was the strongest a woman could be and Lanfear was several levels weaker than Rand.And Ny is the bonfire to Egwene's candle according to Moraine.All this logically puts Egwene way down the pecking order.

Sigh. First of all, there is no way we can ever make a perfect comparison between the two. Second, while men can hold more saidin than women can saidar, the strongest woman can do what the strongest man can do to the same degree. That's from RJ. If they had the same knowledge and skill, Mierin and Rand would have stood equal, so best to compare Egwene to Mierin. Now, beneath Mierin, we have Graendal and Alivia, beneath them we have Nynaeve, Semirhage, beneath them Mesaana and Moghedien, then comes Egwene. Egwene being able to hold 70% of saidar that Mierin can hold seems as good as any to me. Perhaps a little lower, perhaps a little higher. That is not to say Egwene is 70% effective as Mierin. She would get ripped to shreds if she tried to go against Mierin. Same goes for Rand. But that's not all because of strength. Didn't you see Cyndane defeat Alivia while she had a strong angreal and a ter'angreal that melts direct flows of the Power in WH? Didn't you see Rand holding back against a mixed circle of 13 plus dozens of other channelers?

 

Thats what i figured too. For the longest time the books only mention the Choedan Kal and one other Sa'angreal that was not specified by lanfear as being stronger then callandor. Also Callandor has been souped up to be so awesome in power and key to winning the last battle. Not quite sure why peeps want to equate vora's wand to it other then to insinuate that Egwene was close to Rand in the OP

You are refusing to accept what we are saying. Vora's sa'angreal is not equal to Callandor, it gives less Power. That is evidence from text. However, that makes absolutely no difference. It is enough to shield Taim one on one. Any sa'angreal should be enough whether or not used by Egwene or anybody else. Give Morgase the Vora's wand and even she would be able to shield Taim with it, assuming the weave reaches him. Taim is not using Rand's trick to push back the shield, he is not cutting Egwene's weave. He just holds to saidin and the shield rebuffs. Which is an error.

 

Also, Demandred's scepter (Sakarnen?) is probably the second sa'angreal for men stronger than Callandor.

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Sigh. First of all, there is no way we can ever make a perfect comparison between the two. Second, while men can hold more saidin than women can saidar, the strongest woman can do what the strongest man can do to the same degree. That's from RJ. If they had the same knowledge and skill, Mierin and Rand would have stood equal, so best to compare Egwene to Mierin. Now, beneath Mierin, we have Graendal and Alivia, beneath them we have Nynaeve, Semirhage, beneath them Mesaana and Moghedien, then comes Egwene. Egwene being able to hold 70% of saidar that Mierin can hold seems as good as any to me. Perhaps a little lower, perhaps a little higher. That is not to say Egwene is 70% effective as Mierin. She would get ripped to shreds if she tried to go against Mierin. Same goes for Rand. But that's not all because of strength. Didn't you see Cyndane defeat Alivia while she had a strong angreal and a ter'angreal that melts direct flows of the Power in WH? Didn't you see Rand holding back against a mixed circle of 13 plus dozens of other channelers?

 

I was responding to a post which said Egwene is 70-80 percent of Rand (not Mierin) in OP strength,which is highly highly improbable.Did not say anything about skill or ability or effectiveness.

 

We know tht it is difficult to cut someone off who is holding the power even if the person trying to do the cutting is stronger.Ny who is much stronger than Elayne is unable to cut her off.Taim is much stronger than Egwene almost to Rand level.And we also know that he is more knowledgable than Egwene,after being extensively trained by a forsaken.It does not have to be an error in the books for Egwene to be unable to cut him from the source even if she with her sa'angreal was stronger than Taim at that point.

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I think that earlier books (those before Rand's kidnapping by Elaida's embassy and Dumai Wells) established that shielding between man and woman is more than power dynamics.

 

Elayne and Egwene could not shield Rand, but thirteen linked weakest (Power-wise) women could always shield a man, regardless of power. Elaida's embassy was doing that in order to capture Rand.

 

Regardless, I think that I never found a channeler resist shielding by a strength of will alone.

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@XXX47

 

I know you were. But comparing a saidin-wielder to a saidar-wielder makes no sense. There are 21 saidar strength levels, RJ also said there are several more atop that for saidin. So let's, for the sake of argument, say there are 25 levels of saidin strength. Rand is level 25, while Mierin is 21. Rand holds more saidin than Mierin holds saidar but they are equal. So it doesn't really make sense to compare Rand to Egwene, instead I am saying we should compare Egwene to Rand's equal which is Mierin. In that, I think 70% is reasonable.

 

About Egwene and Taim, I believe I already made my arguments enough. I am repeating once again. Yes, Taim is stronger than Egwene but that doesn't matter with a sa'angreal. There is only one instance we know exactly how much an angreal grants, and that is Elayne's "not a strong" angreal. Amber brooch allows Elayne to hold twice as much of saidar as Nynaeve. Which means it gives Nynaeve's strength+difference between Nynaeve and Elayne's strengths. Well, Vora's sa'angreal is the strongest the WT has. It is perfectly reasonable it gives much much more than the amber brooch. With that, even Morgase can shield Taim easily.

Edited by Cem Önal

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I don't know if this is necessarily an error but a plothole, but I am really bothered by Demandred's constant calling for Rand.  Aside from it getting annoying and repetitive, how many dark side people were at the battle outside Thakan'dar?  Those people seem to know exaclty what was going on.  I think at least 5 black ajah had gone for Rand in the tunnel.  Did he not have a single spy up there?  There was enough Traveling going on that everyone on everyside should have been well informed.  It just seems absurd that this supposed brilliant tactician has such a poorly informed intelligence network.

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His ponderous messenger sheep were foreshadowed in Winter's Heart.

 

Also, the strength of will thing is just hyperbole. It didn't bother me too much; we've seen shields being resisted as opposed to being sliced a few times before.

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His ponderous messenger sheep were foreshadowed in Winter's Heart.

 

Also, the strength of will thing is just hyperbole. It didn't bother me too much; we've seen shields being resisted as opposed to being sliced a few times before.

 

Well, it definitely wasn't the worst error in the book so its got that going for it at least.

 

Overall, there were several fairly jarring errors but it wasnt too brutal.

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This is probably more retcon than error but there are two instances, IIRC, that Naeff is told to be at Merrilor when in ToM, Rand sent him to BT the day before.

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Oh, and a printing error: Don't have the book in front of me to give a page number (I gave it to a friend of mine yesterday after I finished reading it), but Tom's POV when he's sitting outside the entrance to the Pit of Doom; there's no break space between that and the previous POV. Which confused me for a little bit and pulled me out of the story. 

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Time to necro the decades old thread on Wotmania by Dom? maybe, with channelers broken down on a scale of 1-100.

 

I do want to put a small point in, from memory so excuse the paraphrasing, but doesn't Loial say to some effect that "13 weak women could shield most men, and the 13 weakest women in Tar Valon could stop rand," the point being that if you were Aes sedai you had a certain power level.

 

Edit: I thought it was LoC, but now I can't find the quote. My powers of ipad search are failing me.

 

Edit 2. Found it, it was Asmo to Rand - "Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man and barely breathe hard”

Edited by tedman

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Time to necro the decades old thread on Wotmania by Dom? maybe, with channelers broken down on a scale of 1-100.

 

I do want to put a small point in, from memory so excuse the paraphrasing, but doesn't Loial say to some effect that "13 weak women could shield most men, and the 13 weakest women in Tar Valon could stop rand," the point being that if you were Aes sedai you had a certain power level.

 

Edit: I thought it was LoC, but now I can't find the quote. My powers of ipad search are failing me.

 

Edit 2. Found it, it was Asmo to Rand - "Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man and barely breathe hard”

If that is true how was rand able to push back the shield from the circle of 13?

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I'm still reading the book so this may have been mentioned already (I don't want to read the thread to avoid spoilers) but In chapter 4 Pevara tells an outright lie when she says that Dobser (hate that name) can't hear them right after she makes it possible for him to hear their conversation.

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I think that earlier books (those before Rand's kidnapping by Elaida's embassy and Dumai Wells) established that shielding between man and woman is more than power dynamics.

 

Elayne and Egwene could not shield Rand, but thirteen linked weakest (Power-wise) women could always shield a man, regardless of power. Elaida's embassy was doing that in order to capture Rand.

 

Regardless, I think that I never found a channeler resist shielding by a strength of will alone.

I think that it has long been established that when people are being shielded, their "strength of will" is so fierce to prevent it but they are helpless anyways.

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Oh, and a major typsetting screwup: in Egwene's death scene, there's a break from her POV to Rand's, and the first line of Rand's POV is "Egwene was dead." This was printed right at the bottom of the right-hand page. So when you're reading the book two pages earlier, with your eyes at the bottom right, and you turn the page, the first thing your attention is immediately drawn to is the set-off words "Egwene was dead"... before you actually get a chance to read the two pages of Egwene POV explaining how that happened. 

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Chapter 2, p.100(TOR) (credit to whomever noticed this during the audiobook release and posted it on twitter - Terez I think?)

"Where does he live?"

"Back in Kandor." (Pevara says)

which seems to be a lie because he's dead, he doesn't "live" anywhere.

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This one was found by Herid (I can't claim any credit):

 

Chapter 4

p. 131 TOR Edition:

"He cannot hear what we say?"

"No," Pevara said.

This would seem to be fairly unambiguously a lie.

This one was found by Herid (I can't claim any credit):

 

Chapter 4

p. 131 TOR Edition:

"He cannot hear what we say?"

"No," Pevara said.

This would seem to be fairly unambiguously a lie.

I had the same thought when I read that.

Same. Nailed it.

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This one was found by Herid (I can't claim any credit):

 

Chapter 4

p. 131 TOR Edition:

"He cannot hear what we say?"

"No," Pevara said.

This would seem to be fairly unambiguously a lie.

 

 

That's only a double negative, used in everyday speech. I don't think it was intentional, hehehe. Upon first reading I didn't get your point, although I think I noticed it at the time. Androl had him bound with flows of air at the time, so he couldn't hear.

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